This is a common misconception. The passage that describes Kas'im's skill with a lightsaber details information that Bane didn't know about, such as the extent to which Kas'im had mastered Jar'Kai (given that Jar'Kai is what gave Kas'im the edge against Bane, something Bane didn't even know he could wield at all, and that the passage then goes on to attribute the manner in which Kas'im mastered everything and then spent decades perfecting his skills as the reason why Bane couldn't beat him).
Selenial - your thoughts on the size of the Rakatan temple please?
Registered: Mar 2014
Location: The Proud Nation of Kekistan
Because I actually respect you I'll reply at some time at which I am not at work.
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Shadilay my brothers and sisters. With any luck we will throw off the shackles of normie oppression. We have nothing to lose but our chains! Praise Kek!
THE MOTTO IS "IN KEK WE TRUST"
Registered: Jul 2014
Location: Off learning Ground Realities
Just because they don't fight worse doesn't mean they weren't exhausted. Compare the speed Shaak fights to later scenes, and she is much slower. Notice the fact she's defeated by Grievous' strength, not his skill, and then think back to the fact that Shaak Ti crushed the head of a magnaguard with her bare knee. She was obviously not in peak physical condition in that fight, and was noticeably less powerful than her later appearances.
You need to analyse the fight more then. Grievous never fought more than two Jedi in an actual skill based duel, when surrounded by 4, he abused his rotary systems and waited until any of the Jedi let their guard down. Just because Shaak Ti could not save her Jedi friends does not mean she was dominated, at least during the fight with the other Jedi.
Except she dueled him alone for a decent period of time. Look at the fact she wasn't out-skilled by Grievous, but was unable to match his speed and in the end his strength. In other instances she's shown a blinding speed easily capable of matching his, later on in the show she has the Strength to break a Magnaguard's face without the need of a weapon. Yet here his strength was too much, and his speed to great. The only reason for this would have been her exhaustion.
She's literally been fighting for her life for quite some time, using constant applications of Force Speed. She had just crushed a squad of the most elite non force-using fighters in the galaxy, and had chased down a transport that was far faster than any humanoid should be able to run. She'd spent a great deal of time running faster than even Bane, all the while sensing her comrade's death. By the time she gets to Grievous, she's emotionally wounded, physically drained and a wreck.
He literally says "You're tired Jedi" as well. Good lord do I need to spell it out for you even more simply than that?
How hilarious that the Comic, the Game and the Novel were all written by different people then. Starkiller in the game can unleash force lightning to levels where he eviscerates a 50 Stormtroopers, in a non cutscene. He can bend an AT-ST to it's knees, in a non cutscene. That's what the developer seems to be referring to.
He has absolutely no pull whatsoever when it comes to the Novel or the Graphic Novel, both of which we're using here, not the game.
*sigh* Could just read the ****ing respect thread, but OK:
“Shaak Ti is a Master of Makashi and Ataru forms in addition to her legendary strength in the force”
"Only the most skilled of the Order could stand against her!"
"The Jedi revere Shaak Ti as one of the highest in their order, and one of the most accomplished in Lightsaber combat."
"Shaak Ti's lightsabre movements were fluid and graceful, making the most of her enhanced spatial awareness. Few escaped her deadly swirling blade."
"Supreme Chancellor Palpatine himself officially commended Shaak Ti for her efforts and notable actions on Dagu, Geonosis and Centares. He grew to trust Shaak Ti and her abilities, keeping her as part of his inner circle of protectors during the increasing dangers of the Clone Wars."
"There is an understated elegance in Obi-Wan Kenobi's lightsaber technique, one that is quite unlike the feel one might get from the other great swordsbeings of the Jedi Order. He lacks entirely the flash, the pure bold elan of an Anakin Skywalker; there is nowhere in him the penumbral ferocity of a Mace Windu or a Depa Billaba nor the stylish grace of a Shaak Ti or a Dooku, and he is nothing resembling the whirlwind of destruction that Yoda can become."
I laughed at literally every single sentence in that paragraph. No wonder even members of the DMBE can't get aboard supporting this shit
Registered: Jul 2014
Location: Off learning Ground Realities
Thank you, I genuinely can't take Appletonia seriously when he says Kas'im's the best duelist in the history of Star Wars. Perhaps I'll appreciate your arguments more.
She comes across as being more measured and tentative, and she has less room to move around, but she doesn't come across as slower, and the Jedi in general aren't depicted as being severely physically hindered to the extent that you might otherwise like to claim.
She's defeated by Grievous using all of attributes he brings to the table (speed, strength, skill etc.) period, and it could be that crushing the head of a MagnaGuard is simply far less impressive than competing with Grievous, from a strength standpoint regardless.
The general picture is not of a group of Jedi that were so physically hindered, that their superior skill couldn't have possibly had a way to shine through. Notice how Obi-Wan was nowhere near as fast as Grievous but was still able to rely on skill and economy and movement to combat him. Obviously Obi-Wan was probably better suited to fighting Grievous, but the point I'm making is that regardless of being physically disadvantaged, you would expect a high level swordsman to be able to put up a much better fight.
The moment I'm primarily referring to is when Grievous's attention is entirely fixed on her and he proceeds to overwhelm her pretty quickly and easily.
Ki-Adi dueled him alone for at least as long, and possibly far longer.
She wasn't able to match him, bringing all of his attributes to the table. Just because it looks like his strength and speed are the main factors, it doesn't mean he wasn't also fighting skillfully, and a swordsman is capable of combating superior speed and strength with superior skill as well, she just simply couldn't. It wasn't this simple contest of his strength and speed against her strength and speed like you keep on trying to make out.
Where?
Which doesn't necessarily require as much strength as being able to match Grievous's strength.
Or, his overall level of ability with a lightsaber was simply too much for her overall level of ability with a lightsaber, while in a diminished state of course (that by all available evidence wasn't that diminished).
Yet she was still performing some of her very best physical feats mere moments before confronting Grievous, when she had just as much reason to be tired (minus a minimal amount of time). Are you arguing that the moment of exhaustion conveniently happened just before she went to confront him?
Sure, she's emotionally wounded, but a jedi doesn't draw their energy from their physiology to the point that being emotionally wounded would have any real impact on her physical ability. A Jedi's speed/other physical abilities draw from their Force reserves, and generally haven't been portrayed as requiring any real focus to access, and is more of a function of muscle memory.
She simply rushes him, and doesn't have the strength/foresight/ability to avoid getting easily brushed aside.
Really?
The book and comic were based off of the game and its concept; the game was the primary source and what came first in the conceptual phase. And everything about the game's depiction of the Force, whether it was explored through cutscenes or gameplay, was based off of that concept. You're being blatantly dishonest at this point.
All unsubstantiated, and hardly painting a picture of one of the very best ever, like you claimed.
Even accepting TFU for a moment, how powerful exactly was Starkiller around the time he fought her?
Not sure why people are dismissing Bane's feat of destroying the Rakatan temple, ad Kas'im's feat of defending against a portion of the attack in any event, but I wouldn't be surprised if Bane and Starkiller were possibly around the same level at the time of those fights.
Registered: Jul 2014
Location: Off learning Ground Realities
The general picture? Rofl.
- Ki Adi Mundi's robes are torn apart.
- Shaak Ti is meditating to conserve strength when he walks in
- K'kruhk is panting like an asthmatic smoker who's just ran a marathon.
- Aayla is in the corner clutching her arm in pain
- Aayla and Shaak Ti's robes are also in tatters.
All of the above indicate they've been fighting for a long time, and are all exhausted.
Again, tiredness. If she is able to perfectly match his skill or better, but is severely outmatched in strength and speed, she can't do anything.
"If you are to succeed in combat against the best of the Jedi, you must have fear, surprise and intimidation on your side. If any of these things are lacking, it would be best to retreat. You must break them before you engage them
- Count Dooku, to Grievous.
And yes, Shaak Ti is one of the best of the Jedi, as you've just been shown.
Compare these two instances.
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and
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And note how much more conservative Shaak Ti is with her energy in the first engagement. Yet more proof she was tired from the battle.
When the way he defeats her is overpowering her so much she flies into rubble and shatters it? Yeh no.
"Grievous knows he will be facing many Jedi Knights during the Clone Wars and trains his MagnaGuards in dueling techniques that allow them to gang up on a single target. Backup systems allow MagnaGuards to keep fighting even after they lose a limb. While Grievous doesn't expect his MagnaGuards to be able to kill every Jedi who challenges them, he knows his bodyguard screen will exhaust most attackers and leave them vulnerable to a finishing blow delivered by the General himself."
- Ultimate Star Wars, p242.
Please educate yourself on lore before bothering to log into this website again, it might help you just a little.
It is quite obvious that she expended the last of her energy in an attempt to catch up with them. Please stop ignoring canon information ("you are tired Jedi") in an attempt to belittle a character, simply because you're embarrassed that Kas'im can't stand up to her.
"Impressive reflexes," said Master Satele, to all appearances unconcerned by the possibility that Ax might have cut her in half. She hadn't even activated her own lightsaber. "Your peripheral vision could use some work, though. I've been on your tail ever since you landed."
^^ That quote right there somehow has more relevance to this debate than your pathetic attempts to get rid of a source you dislike. That's quite an impressive feat on your end, you really are the definition of "The bottom of the barrel" when it comes to debating, aren't you.
Not once have you come up with a single argument for Kas'im, because you can't, you're literally just trying to make her seem like a pathetic excuse for a Jedi. You're doing a terrible job of it at that.
Again with the "your sourcebooks are wrong my opinion is superior to them so there" bull shit. It's genuinely hilarious at this stage
Might start profiling this actually.
Oh and Side Note, being up there with the likes of Mace Windu, Yoda, Dooku and Anakin Skywalker is the same as being one of the best in history.
That's when they're not in a battle state and will show signs of exhaustion. When fighting, they didn't come across as overly hampered.
The very best Jedi usually don't break, and not really sure the relevance of this anyhow.
Doesn't seem to be a huge disparity, she seems more free to mvoe around against the MagnaGaurds then she is with Grievous. As I said she was more tentative than anything else.
That final attack didn't simply happen independently of the swordplay that preceeded it.
The quote in context would have been nice.
That might have been a general strategy employed by Grievous with the MagnaGuards, but it doesn't mean that was the strategy being used in this instance (they were primarily a distraction - Palpatine was the target, not Shaak Ti), or that it worked.
Grievous likes to taunt and demoralize people in general, and I'm not denying she would have been tired, I'm questioning the extent.
Thanks for the spoiler for a book I'm currently reading!
I already have, you're just ignoring the implications of his ability to protect himself from Bane's attack, and the heights he took his mastery of the lightsaber to, or the fact that by his death there probably wasn't a single person in the Galaxy that could defeat him in a fair fight.
So you're not going to substantiate them?
You still haven't substantiated what being one of the best in history actually means, and that she's on that level is entirely unproven.
Registered: Mar 2014
Location: The Proud Nation of Kekistan
@appletonia While I don't agree with most of what you post, I respect the fact that you have some common decency and I would like to thank you for not compulsively spamming disturbing ass pictures all over the forum and making a complete ass of yourself dozens upon dozens of times just for the attention.
__________________
Shadilay my brothers and sisters. With any luck we will throw off the shackles of normie oppression. We have nothing to lose but our chains! Praise Kek!
THE MOTTO IS "IN KEK WE TRUST"
I don't understand how anyone can type out the name of that game and still make this argument afterwards with sincerity. It just baffles me.
It isn't merely an excuse, it's a fact. You calling it such is merely a dismissal of a viewpoint you dislike, without accounting for the truth of the matter.
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Last edited by Nephthys on Jul 23rd, 2015 at 09:24 PM
Registered: Jul 2014
Location: Off learning Ground Realities
Firstly, novel.
Secondly, nothing about it stretches any canon whatsoever. Vader and Palpatine do in that book exactly what they could do in Legends. The only argument for the book being overblown is again, people disliking Galen Marek.
It. Is. Literally. Called. The. Force. Unleashed. How much clearer than that does it need to be? The game's entire concept is based on amping up the Force to absurd heights. That is literally what the entire ****ing franchise is about.
Registered: Jul 2014
Location: Off learning Ground Realities
And how can you categorically say the way they do that isn't just focusing on the most powerful characters of the era? Showing the player or reader what the Force does in the hands of masters? Like what does the game really actually show that occurs nowhere else in the mythos
If SWTOR only showed Darth Marr, Barsen'thor, the Hero of Tython, Vitiate, Malgus, Satele and Revan, would you be tooting the same horn?
Why am I even asking that question, of course you wouldn't.
Because as you already pointed out, those character's already existed prior to TFU. So that doesn't fit with the concept of showing the Force in a new light. If the game were merely showing the characters at the level that already existed then it wouldn't be amping anything up. That's an utterly tone-deaf, willfully ignorant interpretation.
Of course not, because literally the entire point of Swtor isn't to exaggerate the Force to levels that dampen teenage boys pants. Swtor didn't release their first trailer entirely as a guy pulling a Star Destroyer to the ground to get the point across about what the game's concept was. It doesn't have the lead developer gush about exaggerating the Force. It isn't literally called the Force Unleashed.
Not sure why Hayden Blackman's opinion on the subject matters to Neph, who has made it abundantly clear that author intent means nothing when he dislikes itdoesn't matter at all.
Not sure why Tempest's opinion on the subject matters to anyone, who has made it abundantly clear that he's nothing more than a salty old bottom-ass b*tch.
Registered: Jul 2014
Location: Off learning Ground Realities
So if characters who existed before The Force Unleashed are somehow exempt from this rule, then why isn't Shaak Ti? Either way, the argument that someone wanting to show the force at it's maximum potential invalidates the feat is ludicrous. Why does it matter if the writer wanted to show the Force properly unleashed in a powerful protagonist? That's his choice, it doesn't make the character more less powerful than he is actually shown in the game.
So somehow SWTOR is less exaggeration when it has a supposedly immortal Sith Emperor running around the stage eating planets? Please.
Another example of course is Knights of the Old Republic 2. Chris Avellone thought the ancient Sith could move planets with their abilities and believed them infinitely more powerful than actual sourcebooks would suggest. Just because he believes that doesn't mean "His view of canon is distorted so everyone in KOTOR 2 must be weaker than it's shown in that game."
And to reiterate since apparently you must be told things more than three times, the Novel isn't anywhere near as ridiculous as the game. Not even close. The game is "hyping up the force" or making it out at "absurd" levels in the mechanics where Galen can one shot an AT-ST. In the cutscenes the power levels are normal.
At the end of the day, everything in that game that we see as Canon went through the Lucasarts Story Board, and even George Lucas himself. You cannot call it irrelevant because you do not like it. ****ing grow a pair and deal with it.
Jul 23rd, 2015 05:48 PM
