KMC Forums

 
  REGISTER HERE TO JOIN IN! - It's easy and it's free!
Already a member? Log-in!
 
 
Home » Star Wars » Star Wars: Episode I, II & III » Why was Rey able to defeat the injured Kylo ?


Why was Rey able to defeat the injured Kylo ?
Started by: redpill

Forum Jump:
Post New Thread    Post A Reply
Pages (4): « 1 2 [3] 4 »   Last Thread   Next Thread
Author
Thread
queeq
Chaos

Registered: Oct 2000
Location: JP's bed

Moderator


 

Ya know, the weird thing is, when I see the behind the scenes footage of McGregor training for the TPM fight it looks pretty cool. Yet, when I see it in TPM it's pretty clean and sterile.

Maybe it's the shabby sports wear, the shabby beard and hair and the sweat that made it look like a real effort. I dunno.


__________________

Old Post Jan 20th, 2016 06:56 PM
Click here to Send queeq a Private Message Find more posts by queeq Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
NewLanceWindu
Keeper of the Prophecy

Registered: Mar 2015
Location: Nevada


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by queeq
Ya know, the weird thing is, when I see the behind the scenes footage of McGregor training for the TPM fight it looks pretty cool. Yet, when I see it in TPM it's pretty clean and sterile.

Maybe it's the shabby sports wear, the shabby beard and hair and the sweat that made it look like a real effort. I dunno.


McGregor was always super aggressive in training. He and Hayden broke/bent many of the practice lightsabers. They had them tone it back for the movie.


__________________

Old Post Jan 20th, 2016 08:17 PM
Click here to Send NewLanceWindu a Private Message Find more posts by NewLanceWindu Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
queeq
Chaos

Registered: Oct 2000
Location: JP's bed

Moderator


 

Well, it shows...


__________________

Old Post Jan 20th, 2016 08:31 PM
Click here to Send queeq a Private Message Find more posts by queeq Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Lord Lucien
Fegelien!

Registered: Jul 2005
Location:


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Hmm, well I don't see the fights as looking any more timed or careful than, say, the TFA fight. They're just in what I see as a better style.

And if you didn't care about the characters in the first place, fair enough- but that begs the question, if you DID care about the characters, would you like the PT style?

Luke wailing on Vader is an awesome moment- again, backed well by the music; that moment and the minutes afterwards are the high point of ROTJ and I am not for one moment denying that decent character involvement makes fights better. But I'm honestly not that big on the sabre fight leading up to it (ESB was better). In comparison, I think the exchange of blows between Obi-Wan and Maul after the staredown is the best few moments of sabre duelling in the entire franchise. It's a fantastically designed series of blows (using both blade and body), I am well into Obi-Wan's anger, and Maul's cocky taunting is bang on as well.

That polished perfection for me is straight- perfection in the sense of being very good indeed.
The PT duels have three chief problems:

1.) The lack of emotional investment in the characters;
2.) The style itself, with the speed, pre-practised perfect routines, and the twirly-whirly; and
3.) The polished, super-clean, sterile looking, effortless movements (and environments).

Add number 1, and the others remain. The style I've already b*tched about, but the very look and feel of the fights is fake feeling. Aside from the Anakin-Kenobi duel, there's not alot of sweat, or panting, or struggling. Remember Luke getting all bruised and sweaty? The look on his face when he's down on the ground with Vader's saber at his throat? It looked and felt real. You could see the grit and the strain.

It looked like the sabers lost their weight in the PT. None of the actors got dirty and sweaty during the fights. After Luke loses his hand, look at him. He's grunting through gritted teeth, he's filthy, he's angry, he's real. Or when he defeats Vader in RotJ; panting and glowering over him after thrashing the shit out of him. Then look at the PT. The fighting looks easy, and elegant, and flowing, and perfect, and done in an air-conditioned studio with lots of stunt doubles and changes of clothes. Again, the exception is the RotS final duel, and no surprise most people call it the best. I do too (by default), and that gritty, sweaty, panting, struggling look the actors have by the end of it is a part of that quality. But it's just one of like 8 in the trilogy. None of the others come close to it.



It's why I liked the TFA duel. Look at them bleed, look at them gasp, and scream, and sweat, and limp, and snarl, and struggle. It's great! It feels real. And I value that over perfectly executed, polished, stylized choreography any day.


__________________
Recently Produced and Distributed Young but High-Ranking Political Figure of Royal Ancestry within the Modern American Town Affectionately Referred To as Bel-Air.

Old Post Jan 21st, 2016 01:54 AM
Click here to Send Lord Lucien a Private Message Find more posts by Lord Lucien Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
quanchi112
Unavoidable

Registered: May 2007
Location: Ohio


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
The PT duels have three chief problems:

1.) The lack of emotional investment in the characters;
2.) The style itself, with the speed, pre-practised perfect routines, and the twirly-whirly; and
3.) The polished, super-clean, sterile looking, effortless movements (and environments).

Add number 1, and the others remain. The style I've already b*tched about, but the very look and feel of the fights is fake feeling. Aside from the Anakin-Kenobi duel, there's not alot of sweat, or panting, or struggling. Remember Luke getting all bruised and sweaty? The look on his face when he's down on the ground with Vader's saber at his throat? It looked and felt real. You could see the grit and the strain.

It looked like the sabers lost their weight in the PT. None of the actors got dirty and sweaty during the fights. After Luke loses his hand, look at him. He's grunting through gritted teeth, he's filthy, he's angry, he's real. Or when he defeats Vader in RotJ; panting and glowering over him after thrashing the shit out of him. Then look at the PT. The fighting looks easy, and elegant, and flowing, and perfect, and done in an air-conditioned studio with lots of stunt doubles and changes of clothes. Again, the exception is the RotS final duel, and no surprise most people call it the best. I do too (by default), and that gritty, sweaty, panting, struggling look the actors have by the end of it is a part of that quality. But it's just one of like 8 in the trilogy. None of the others come close to it.



It's why I liked the TFA duel. Look at them bleed, look at them gasp, and scream, and sweat, and limp, and snarl, and struggle. It's great! It feels real. And I value that over perfectly executed, polished, stylized choreography any day.
Iyo not mine.


__________________

Old Post Jan 21st, 2016 03:36 AM
Click here to Send quanchi112 a Private Message Find more posts by quanchi112 Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
queeq
Chaos

Registered: Oct 2000
Location: JP's bed

Moderator


 

Iyo?

Well, even the ROTS fight had its problems: overlong, very weird moments (twirly-whirly duel, hand force lock, swinging from ropes, jumping from flying mini-robot to other mini-robots and... only one emotion, ergo no dynamics).


__________________

Old Post Jan 21st, 2016 07:54 AM
Click here to Send queeq a Private Message Find more posts by queeq Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Ushgarak
Paladin

Registered: Sep 2000
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UK

Co-Admin


 

Minus the twirly bit, I broadly agree with that- as I noted, the ROTS duel loses it when they go outside. But it's really good before that.

Actually, one thing I would say is that in the PT, they had trouble finding interesting endings to duels. All three major OT duels end well- unexpected Obi-Wan sacrifice, Luke loses a hand and father reveal, Luke goes crazy-bonkers, rejects Dark Side,, Anakin intervenes.

TPM does really well until Obi-Wan falls down the pit. This a good (nearly literal) cliffhanger, but the solution 'he jumps out the pit and kills Maul' is weak.

AOTC is the one I would agree suffers from lack of emotional involvement; it's a good job Lee was playing Dooku or he would have no personality at all (another badly underused character), It has 'Dooku wins but is then driven of by Yoda'. Having to bail out your heroes with the super-master is always unsatisfying- it's exactly why they kept Luke off-screen in TFA.

The Windu fight ending is my favourite of the PT, but it;s led to those endless debates over whether Palpy faked the loss or not (I still say no).

Yoda/Palpatine didn't so much end as fizzle out. I was actually slightly surprised it seemed to be over. It's like Yoda got bored of it and cleared off.

Obi-Wan/Anakin had already lost it by then and 'I have the high ground' seems such an arbitrary ending. Actually, it might have worked better if they had directly linked it to it being the same move Obi-Wan used to defeat Maul. But the fundamental problem ios that it is a duel where we know what happens (literally we know that of all the PT duels, but it's more emotionally acute here) and it was badly in need of something a little clever at the end- like, Anakin wins (maybe because Obi-Wan's heart isn't in it) but hesitates [a la The Vikings), allowing Obi-Wan to win, or Obi-Wan tries to save Anakin but it all goes awry at the last moment and he's forced to strike him down. Just something to give the closing of the circle a bit of an edge and make us think, even just for a moment, that maybe it could have been different. 'Anakin jumps at Obi-Wan and gets cut in half' is all a bit meh.

Luckily McGregor is a good actor and the post-fight speech works out well.

Anyway, TFA's duel ended well enough; we'll see where it goes from here.


__________________



"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"

"You've never had any TINY bit of sex, have you?"

BtVS

Last edited by Ushgarak on Jan 21st, 2016 at 05:34 PM

Old Post Jan 21st, 2016 05:23 PM
Click here to Send Ushgarak a Private Message Find more posts by Ushgarak Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
StiltmanFTW
Senior Member

Registered: Dec 2008
Location: The Prince of all Saiyans


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Ushgarak
(I still say no).


And you're most likely right about that...

Because, iirc, Samuel L. Jackson himself wanted Mace to have a really nice feat before his death... a nice performance... that's what I read. Originally, Lucas wanted him to job to Sidious like everyone else.


__________________

Old Post Jan 21st, 2016 06:53 PM
Click here to Send StiltmanFTW a Private Message Find more posts by StiltmanFTW Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Darth Thor
Senior Member

Registered: Apr 2008
Location: Asgard


Darth Thor is online now!

One big reason the result of that fight causes confusion is because Yoda lost to Palpatine, and we're told/ implied throughout the trilogy (and by out of Universe commentary) that Yoda's the most Powerful Jedi combatant.

But Yoda's fight was just very different to Mace's fight, so that's neither here or there, especially when it's in the same movie where Obi-Wan beats Anakin who beats Dooku who beats Obi-Wan.

And The other big reason the result of the Mace/Palpatine fight has always seemed questionable to people is because it worked out so perfectly for Palpatine that you can't help but wonder if he planned the whole thing.

Last edited by Darth Thor on Jan 21st, 2016 at 07:17 PM

Old Post Jan 21st, 2016 07:11 PM
Click here to Send Darth Thor a Private Message Find more posts by Darth Thor Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
queeq
Chaos

Registered: Oct 2000
Location: JP's bed

Moderator


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Minus the twirly bit, I broadly agree with that- as I noted, the ROTS duel loses it when they go outside. But it's really good before that.

Actually, one thing I would say is that in the PT, they had trouble finding interesting endings to duels. All three major OT duels end well- unexpected Obi-Wan sacrifice, Luke loses a hand and father reveal, Luke goes crazy-bonkers, rejects Dark Side,, Anakin intervenes.

TPM does really well until Obi-Wan falls down the pit. This a good (nearly literal) cliffhanger, but the solution 'he jumps out the pit and kills Maul' is weak.

AOTC is the one I would agree suffers from lack of emotional involvement; it's a good job Lee was playing Dooku or he would have no personality at all (another badly underused character), It has 'Dooku wins but is then driven of by Yoda'. Having to bail out your heroes with the super-master is always unsatisfying- it's exactly why they kept Luke off-screen in TFA.

The Windu fight ending is my favourite of the PT, but it;s led to those endless debates over whether Palpy faked the loss or not (I still say no).

Yoda/Palpatine didn't so much end as fizzle out. I was actually slightly surprised it seemed to be over. It's like Yoda got bored of it and cleared off.

Obi-Wan/Anakin had already lost it by then and 'I have the high ground' seems such an arbitrary ending. Actually, it might have worked better if they had directly linked it to it being the same move Obi-Wan used to defeat Maul. But the fundamental problem ios that it is a duel where we know what happens (literally we know that of all the PT duels, but it's more emotionally acute here) and it was badly in need of something a little clever at the end- like, Anakin wins (maybe because Obi-Wan's heart isn't in it) but hesitates [a la The Vikings), allowing Obi-Wan to win, or Obi-Wan tries to save Anakin but it all goes awry at the last moment and he's forced to strike him down. Just something to give the closing of the circle a bit of an edge and make us think, even just for a moment, that maybe it could have been different. 'Anakin jumps at Obi-Wan and gets cut in half' is all a bit meh.

Luckily McGregor is a good actor and the post-fight speech works out well.

Anyway, TFA's duel ended well enough; we'll see where it goes from here.


That's a pretty good analysis.


__________________

Old Post Jan 21st, 2016 07:37 PM
Click here to Send queeq a Private Message Find more posts by queeq Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Lord Lucien
Fegelien!

Registered: Jul 2005
Location:


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by quanchi112
Iyo not mine.
Mine's actually worth something.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by queeq
Iyo?

Well, even the ROTS fight had its problems: overlong, very weird moments (twirly-whirly duel, hand force lock, swinging from ropes, jumping from flying mini-robot to other mini-robots and... only one emotion, ergo no dynamics).
Exactly. By default. It had something, but soggy potato chips are still soggy.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Minus the twirly bit, I broadly agree with that- as I noted, the ROTS duel loses it when they go outside. But it's really good before that.

Actually, one thing I would say is that in the PT, they had trouble finding interesting endings to duels. All three major OT duels end well- unexpected Obi-Wan sacrifice, Luke loses a hand and father reveal, Luke goes crazy-bonkers, rejects Dark Side,, Anakin intervenes.

TPM does really well until Obi-Wan falls down the pit. This a good (nearly literal) cliffhanger, but the solution 'he jumps out the pit and kills Maul' is weak.

AOTC is the one I would agree suffers from lack of emotional involvement; it's a good job Lee was playing Dooku or he would have no personality at all (another badly underused character), It has 'Dooku wins but is then driven of by Yoda'. Having to bail out your heroes with the super-master is always unsatisfying- it's exactly why they kept Luke off-screen in TFA.

The Windu fight ending is my favourite of the PT, but it;s led to those endless debates over whether Palpy faked the loss or not (I still say no).

Yoda/Palpatine didn't so much end as fizzle out. I was actually slightly surprised it seemed to be over. It's like Yoda got bored of it and cleared off.

Obi-Wan/Anakin had already lost it by then and 'I have the high ground' seems such an arbitrary ending. Actually, it might have worked better if they had directly linked it to it being the same move Obi-Wan used to defeat Maul. But the fundamental problem ios that it is a duel where we know what happens (literally we know that of all the PT duels, but it's more emotionally acute here) and it was badly in need of something a little clever at the end- like, Anakin wins (maybe because Obi-Wan's heart isn't in it) but hesitates [a la The Vikings), allowing Obi-Wan to win, or Obi-Wan tries to save Anakin but it all goes awry at the last moment and he's forced to strike him down. Just something to give the closing of the circle a bit of an edge and make us think, even just for a moment, that maybe it could have been different. 'Anakin jumps at Obi-Wan and gets cut in half' is all a bit meh.

Luckily McGregor is a good actor and the post-fight speech works out well.

Anyway, TFA's duel ended well enough; we'll see where it goes from here.
I hadn't even thought about the lackluster endings--usually I'm tuned out by then. They do kinda suck. Kenobi's outburst at the end was well done, and one of the best genuinely emotional moments of the whole trilogy. But given his, uh... deflated reaction to Anakin's fall in the first place, it's existence just kind of makes it the flower from the pot of dirt.


__________________
Recently Produced and Distributed Young but High-Ranking Political Figure of Royal Ancestry within the Modern American Town Affectionately Referred To as Bel-Air.

Old Post Jan 21st, 2016 10:04 PM
Click here to Send Lord Lucien a Private Message Find more posts by Lord Lucien Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Trocity
Senior Member

Registered: May 2012
Location:


 

Both trilogies had good/bad things about their duels.

Kenobi's molasses speed spin in ANH wasn't anything to write home about.


__________________

Old Post Jan 22nd, 2016 12:22 AM
Click here to Send Trocity a Private Message Find more posts by Trocity Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Lord Lucien
Fegelien!

Registered: Jul 2005
Location:


 

Nope, it wasn't a visually impressive fight. Kinda sucked for action. And if that's all that was judged by it would rightfully hold bottom score.



Thank god everybody knows there's more to a sword fight outside of the fact that they're swinging swords at each other. Right? Guys?


__________________
Recently Produced and Distributed Young but High-Ranking Political Figure of Royal Ancestry within the Modern American Town Affectionately Referred To as Bel-Air.

Old Post Jan 22nd, 2016 02:21 AM
Click here to Send Lord Lucien a Private Message Find more posts by Lord Lucien Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
red8
Senior Member

Registered: Aug 2013
Location:


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Hey if you're emotionally invested that's great. But I feel nothing for the characters and their motivations, so I feel nothing for their fights and their deaths. That moment where Maul and Kenobi stare each other down though was pretty cool. Until it gave way to the rest of the stale, boring swordfight.


And sure, the swordplay is good. It's choreography, it looks cool. But I don't care if it's cool if I don't care about the people making it look cool. But that aside, there's too many moments that look... timed, and careful, and planned. They're flawless, but that makes it feel fake and empty.

Remember when Dooku taunted Anakin during RotS about his anger? And Anakin gives him an angry, determined look, raises his saber above his head and... just sort of attacks him the same way as before: carefully timed and positioned with every swing, but slightly faster, I guess? To show that he's angry? I otherwise kinda like that fight since it's one of the more subdued and understated of the prequels, (not as much of the twirly whirly/jump-happy stuff) but even it has this polished perfectness to its movements that I just don't like. When Vader taunted Luke, Luke snapped and just wailed on him like his sword was a club. I bought that emotion, it felt real. Mad-face Anakin and his sexy, highly-stylized choreography does nothing for me.


thumb up x 1000

A lot of people criticize that scene in RotJ because it looks like Luke is just swinging a baseball bat, but that's probably my favorite scene in all of the Star Wars movies.

Old Post Jan 22nd, 2016 04:39 AM
Click here to Send red8 a Private Message Find more posts by red8 Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
quanchi112
Unavoidable

Registered: May 2007
Location: Ohio


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Mine's actually worth something.

Exactly. By default. It had something, but soggy potato chips are still soggy.

I hadn't even thought about the lackluster endings--usually I'm tuned out by then. They do kinda suck. Kenobi's outburst at the end was well done, and one of the best genuinely emotional moments of the whole trilogy. But given his, uh... deflated reaction to Anakin's fall in the first place, it's existence just kind of makes it the flower from the pot of dirt.
No, your opinion clearly isn't. Just remember you don't speak for anyone other than yourself.


__________________

Old Post Jan 22nd, 2016 04:45 AM
Click here to Send quanchi112 a Private Message Find more posts by quanchi112 Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
queeq
Chaos

Registered: Oct 2000
Location: JP's bed

Moderator


 

I dunno... I totally agree with Lucien. So you're wrong there, quanchi!


__________________

Old Post Jan 22nd, 2016 08:49 AM
Click here to Send queeq a Private Message Find more posts by queeq Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Lord Lucien
Fegelien!

Registered: Jul 2005
Location:


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by red8
thumb up x 1000

A lot of people criticize that scene in RotJ because it looks like Luke is just swinging a baseball bat, but that's probably my favorite scene in all of the Star Wars movies.
It's almost cathartic, even after 50 watches.


__________________
Recently Produced and Distributed Young but High-Ranking Political Figure of Royal Ancestry within the Modern American Town Affectionately Referred To as Bel-Air.

Old Post Jan 22nd, 2016 09:06 PM
Click here to Send Lord Lucien a Private Message Find more posts by Lord Lucien Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
queeq
Chaos

Registered: Oct 2000
Location: JP's bed

Moderator


 

Excellent stuff.


__________________

Old Post Jan 22nd, 2016 09:08 PM
Click here to Send queeq a Private Message Find more posts by queeq Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Bentley
Seitei

Registered: Dec 2006
Location: France


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Actually, it might have worked better if they had directly linked it to it being the same move Obi-Wan used to defeat Maul.


I have always thought it's meant to be the same movement.


__________________

Old Post Jan 26th, 2016 12:11 PM
Click here to Send Bentley a Private Message Find more posts by Bentley Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
queeq
Chaos

Registered: Oct 2000
Location: JP's bed

Moderator


 

The OB1 Movement?


__________________

Old Post Jan 26th, 2016 02:47 PM
Click here to Send queeq a Private Message Find more posts by queeq Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
All times are UTC. The time now is 07:08 PM.
Pages (4): « 1 2 [3] 4 »   Last Thread   Next Thread

Email this Page
Subscribe to this Thread
   Post New Thread  Post A Reply

Forum Jump:
Search by user:
 

Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is OFF
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON

Text-only version
 

< Contact Us - KillerMovies.com - Forum Archive - Forum Rules >


© Copyright 2000-2006, KillerMovies.com. All Rights Reserved.
Forum powered by: vBulletin, copyright ©2000-2006, Jelsoft Enterprises Limited.