I think one could argue Jinn used to be an 8 considering some sources state that Jinn was outmatched due to his age specifically, but Jinn being comparable to Maul as of Episode I is just not true.
__________________ "There is only Revan. Only he can shape this galaxy as it is meant to be shaped."
Their minds were compromised in what sense? Their defenses were faltering?
Again, Vitiate managing to breach their minds, is a legitimate demonstration of power on his part. However, he found it extremely easy to complete their fall because they were already on the precipice of Dark Side at that point.
We have two statements:-
The legendary Jedi Revan and Malak confront the Sith Emperor in his throne room on Dromund Kaas. In mere moments, the Jedi lay defeated and consumed by the dark side of the Force.
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia
This is a straightforward revelation of what happened; not from the perspective of any historian or individual.
By the time Revan and Malak approached the Emperor in his throne room, they were already at the precipice of the dark side. It took only a fraction of the Emperor's loathsome power to complete their fall. The Jedi succumbed utterly to the Sith leader's domination and returned to the Republic to spark a new conflict: the Jedi Civil War.
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia
This revelation tells us something more. It tells us that Revan and Malak were more like Dark Jedi at that point and Vitiate found it extremely easy to complete their fall. However, it doesn't tells us much about the breaching part.
And what kind of preparation? Vitiate was simply aware of their presence and instructed his Imperial Guard to let them through. If anything, Vitiate was taking the risk of confronting two battle-hardened warriors. Revan's words do not count as evidence of preparation of any sort.
On the whole, the showing is legitimate. All those ifs and buts are lame.
You are forgetting something; Vitiate one-shotted a Dark Council centuries earlier. Heck, Vitiate eliminated 9 members of the Dark Council by himself a day earlier.
Inferior Strike Team?
Revan (Reborn) + Meetra Surik + Lord Scourge >> Mace Windu + Qui-Gon Jinn + Kit Fisto any time of day.
And you continue to overlook this statement in Chapter 29:
Betraying his allies had not altered the inevitable outcome; the Emperor would have won regardless. At least this way Scourge was still alive to
carry on their cause.
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan
And what's with the nexus nonsense? Vitiate smoked a Jedi Strike Team on a Space Station.
Sure.
OK.
She failed to tackle a member of the Dark Council only; she tackled any other opponent just fine.
Also, if environment was such a big hindrance to her, how was she victorious on Malachor V?
Sure. But he had room for further growth by the time he met Vitiate.
Darth Baras did not stomp Darth Angral; confrontation ended when Darth Baras threw away his lightsaber and informed Darth Angral that he was mistaken about a matter.
He is not a joke. Loosing to a Sith Lord who was offered a position in the Dark Council is not a mark against him. Per this logic, Meetra Surik is a joke because she could not handle one.
He performed that feat with a gesture from a single hand, and did not appear to be exerting much. It is a legit demonstration of his Force abilities. We shall expect a battle-hardened Jedi Master to be that much capable or more.
And that setting was a battleground. Their is literally no difference in what you can manage during combat and otherwise. Only difference is that you create an opportunity or gap in a combat situation to utilize the environment to your advantage. Form VI, in particular, is good for this.
If the opening moments were like that, it is just as likely that the remainder of the confrontation was hard fought with Hero of Tython eventually gaining the upperhand.
Did Mace Windu cream a Jedi that strong even once?
She is stated to be a gifted warrior and her speed is incredible. I believe that she would present a decent challenge to Mace Windu in an all-out bout.
Revan knew what to expect in that fight and had calculated his options in advance. This cannot be said for the members of the Strike Team proposed by you.
It never came down to that in the first place.
Revan and T3-M4 proceeded to fight Vitiate while Lord Scourge and Meetra Surik were preoccupied with the Imperial Guard. When they all gathered in front of Vitiate, the latter was calculating his options but Lord Scourge delivered. Do also keep in mind that Revan's involvement complicated the situation for Vitiate in regards to Telepathy because Revan could do something about it. Meetra Surik and Lord Scourge were easy pickings otherwise. However, it was (absolutely) possible for Vitiate to send Revan packing across the hall with TK and turn either Lord Scourge or Meetra Surik against each other or Revan with Telepathy after that. It is not like as if Vitiate was out of options.
REPEAT:
Betraying his allies had not altered the inevitable outcome; the Emperor would have won regardless. At least this way Scourge was still alive to
carry on their cause.
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan
Your lack of imagination and thought is disturbing. You have lost touch with the ways of the Force. You need training, and I shall be your Master.
Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Mar 5th, 2017 at 09:00 AM
You can't make a call of ignorance and then appeal to ignorance in the same post... Jesus Christ. If you think the lack of detail on how it happened means I can't make an assumption about how Vitiate defeated them, then you can't assume the reasons for Vitiate beating them either.
As for what kind of prep - how am I supposed to know? All I'm saying is that the showing was accomplished with prep, because Vitiate was expecting them. Whether or not he did prepare beforehand is unclear; what is clear is that if I'm asking for an instantaneous feat, this can't be used as conclusive evidence.
There's no ifs and buts. The context is simply unclear, as with any of these off-panel showings designed to be mysterious in nature. So many of Vitiate's feats are mired in circumstances that it is completely fair to question the legitimacy of the showing.
Again, no context. Could he have crushed them all instantly on merit of his own power? Possibly. But what's equally possible is that he prepared for their coming through whatever arcane means available to him, and defeated them with some sort of pre-prepared ritual. If anything, the latter is more likely. Why? Because instead of vaporising a lone, hindered Meetra Surik, Vitiate was literally studying her. If he could annihilate an entire Dark Council, what threat is Meetra Surik alone going to pose? The fact that Vitiate studied her for strengths and weaknesses instead of simply one-shotting her only draws more suspicions towards his apparent ability to one-shot the entire Dark Council on a whim.
We've already gone over this and it's clear that you're not even listening, so forget it. Heck, you later agreed with me on Mace being factually above Revan. And somehow you're still spouting this nonsense.
That was Scourge's belief after he beheld the vision of HoT striking down the Emperor. Because that one vision was clearer and more powerful. The prior visions he witnessed depicted both Vitiate's win and loss being played out in countless different ways and there was no telling of which was more likely by Scourge's own admission.
Above Dromund Kaas, yeah. And even Mandalorian Wars Revan was able to call on the dark side energies of Malachor from orbit. As a superior Force practitioner, Vitiate is entirely capable of doing the same.
The teams he smoked on DK and the space station are different as well. There's no telling if he could smoke Revan's party on a space station. The fact that he defeated another one isn't proof of that.
As you can see, it's a stomp. They clash blades briefly and Baras ends the fight with Lightning.
No, it wasn't a battleground. There wasn't a single hostile being in the vicinity and he had ample time to gather his power without fear of interruption. That is not the type of feat that is manageable in combat.
And no, Orgus is a joke. He's devoid of anything. His performance in the Jedi Knight prologue is embarrassing for someone of his stature, and you failed to even respond to that. I think we can safely assume that you lack an adequate response.
If only the opening move always indicated the actual path of a fight in Star Wars...
You could say the same of Plagueis. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Mace Windu doesn't need to have creamed a Satele before for me to make that claim. If his feats and accolades can be judged to be superior by that much of a margin, then such a claim is valid.
Again, Satele is completely devoid of saber feats or accolades even approaching Mace.
Forget it, though. I'm not having another PT vs TOR character debate within this discussion. We've got enough deviations as it is.
Last edited by SunRazer on Mar 5th, 2017 at 10:00 AM
I didn't say Vitiate couldn't have won. All I'm saying is that Revan's team also could've won.
Here's the contradiction - Vitiate can apparently one-shot the entire Dark Council but is taken aback by Meetra Surik and Scourge, and studies them for strengths and weaknesses instead of simply annihilating them and then going on to finish off the still injured Revan. You'll forgive me if I don't think he'll instantly wipe out this group.
If this mess I'm responding to constitutes the ways of the Force, then nothing would please me more than being a Wound in the Force.
We have four accounts of that confrontation to consider. Among them, following are neutral:
The legendary Jedi Revan and Malak confront the Sith Emperor in his throne room on Dromund Kaas. In mere moments, the Jedi lay defeated and consumed by the dark side of the Force.
Taken from TOR Encyclopedia
&
Jedi Master Tol Braga’s strike team was not the first group to succumb to the Sith leader’s oppressive influence. Hundreds of years ago, the Jedi Revan and Malak discovered Dromund Kaas and confronted the Emperor. They fell to the dark side and returned to Republic space as Sith Lords. Since then, dozens more Jedi have followed the same path into evil.
Taken from TOR Codex - The Emperor's Fallen Jedi
The other two accounts represent the perspective of someone - Revan and the narrator of TOR Encyclopedia (historian?).
Revan gave the impression in his account that he (and his companion) were led into a trap but he also admitted that he had underestimated Vitiate's power and that the latter dominated their minds, turning them into puppets of his will. However, Revan had more to say:
"But though we had underestimated the Emperor's power, he underestimated us, as well. Our wills were stronger than he thought; our minds twisted and perverted his instructions until we thought we were acting of our own accord. Malak and I were turned to the dark side, but in doing so we found the strength to block out all memory of the Sith and the Emperor, partially freeing us from his control."
Taken from TOR: Revan
Now, tell me where it is stated that Revan's defenses had faltered or something like that? This is your personal construct and a faulty one at that.
Being on the precipice of the Dark Side doesn't suggests faltering defenses. Revan could be embracing the Dark Side (willingly). How-come he was able to endure Malachor V and Nathema earlier?
Either that or the narrator's knowledge is limited? Or you are looking for excuses to low-ball Vitiate?
We have this revelation to consider:
"The Emperor has the ability to dominate and enslave the minds of those who serve him," she explained. "It's one of the reasons he has ruled for
so long. Those that are transformed become fanatical zealots who live to serve; they are not capable of betraying him."
Taken from TOR: Revan
Darth Nyriss was also aware of the mind-wipe ritual that Revan was subjected to (by the Jedi) and that it the was key to breaking Vitiate's Telepathic hold over his subjects:
"You said it yourself: something happened to his mind. His memories are lost, but so is his knowledge of and loyalty to the Emperor. Whatever was done to him, it freed him from the Emperor's domination. If we can learn how this happened, we might be able to use it to bring the Emperor down. Remember that all those who have direct access to the Emperor—the Emperor's Voice, the Emperor's Hand, the soldiers in the Imperial Guard—are under his spell. Breaking that spell, turning his most loyal followers against him, is our best chance of defeating him and saving the Empire from his mad plan to attack the Republic.
Taken from TOR: Revan
Wait.
The Emperor's Voice is mentioned. So Revan confronted a Voice?
Emphasis mine. I am strong enough to crush a dangerous fly with bare hands, but should one come near me, I might be willing to observe it for a while and calculate my options before making a move. I am likely to perceive it as a threat since it can sting and cause me pain or worse.
In spite of that, Vitiate was confident that he would eliminate this Strike Team.
"He has seen the depths of your evil," Revan declared. “He stands with us now."
"Then he will die with you, as well."
"You can't defeat all three of us," Revan said. "United, we are stronger than even you."
"That remains to be seen," the Emperor replied.
Taken from TOR: Revan
Those responses give the impression of confidence, not doubt. A pause implies nothing.
You disappoint me, Master KenobiSunRazer. Master Yoda I have held you in such a high regard.
Wat?
You stated that Mace Windu is above Revan (KoTOR); I agreed. However, Revan (Reborn) is a leap from Revan (KoTOR) and he should be more powerful and capable warrior than Mace Windu as well.
As for others:
Meetra Surik > Qui-Gon Jinn
Do you think that Jinn could handle Darth Nyriss in her place? I don't.
Lord Scourge >= Kit Fisto
Now this is fodder category. Even if Kit Fisto is better - which I doubt - he is almost irrelevant in this hypothetical confrontation.
Visions are not set in stone, my friend. A day earlier, he experienced a powerful vision in his sleep about the same confrontation and outcome in it was grim and demotivating.
Whatever he foresaw, he came to the conclusion that the current Strike Team won't cut it. And he felt assured that he made the right decision as noted in Chapter 29.
Yes, he could do that but do we have any indication of it? We don't just fit additional realities in a revelation for the sake of argument unless their is a strong reason for it.
Vitiate defeated that Jedi Strike Team (easily). Common sense dictates that their isn't a need to go an extra-mile to accomplish a task that is easy to accomplish otherwise.
She had visited Malachor V years after the cataclysm of the mass-shadow generator. Traversing its surface had been agony. Mentally, she had
still sensed the anguish of all who had lost their lives there. Physically, the intense gravity of the world had held her in its crushing grip, leaving her
gasping for breath. It had been the most awful and horrific experience of her life … until now.
Taken from TOR: Revan
If anything, that revelation is compatible with revelations in KoTOR II. However, as you pointed out in your blog, Surik's realities were somewhat different back then and those might have played a role in her victory so fair enough to that. However, you give too much credit to Surik's condition in your assessment. I believe that her skills and willpower (i.e. enlightenment) were just as relevant.
Prior to confrontation with Vitiate, Surik sought some kind of enlightenment like she used to in other major confrontations in the past:
Meetra had gone into what Revan called her warrior's trance; she sat still and straight, her eyes focused on nothing as she stared straight ahead.
He had seen it many times during the war against the Mandalorians. Before each major battle she would try to center her emotions, cleansing herself of all fear and hatred lest the imminent violence draw her toward the dark side. She believed she could transform herself into a perfect conduit for the Force, an incorruptible weapon of light.
Taken from TOR: Revan
Seems like a nod to Surik's Force enlightenment talent. That might explain why Surik was a greater threat to Vitiate than to Darth Nyriss earlier.
On the other hand, your complaints are a bit too much. I also noticed some errors in your assumptions there.
Fair. Read it as capable of defeating.
How is that a stomp?
Darth Angral looks just fine in the end. This fight ended when Darth Baras said this: "My fight is not with you."
In-fact, it is noted in TOR Encyclopedia that some mistook Darth Angral's appearance for lack of strength.
That is a logical fallacy. A combat situation doesn't necessarily forces a participant to expend his energy non-stop. A pause or gap in action is likely to occur at some point that can be exploited by the more cunning participant to his advantage or a participant can create on on his own. I can cite several examples. Two already come to mind:
1. Revan versus Vitiate
2. Luke Skywalker; Mara Jade; Tahiri Veila versus Lord Nyax
Regarding Orgus Din:
So a bad moment for him on Tython translate into him being a joke?
I suppose Revan ducking for cover from a few Mandalorians on Rekkiad translate into him being a joke too.
Lame.
What feats you are talking about?
Satele Shan more then holds her own with her Force powers, if not dueling her ability. And factors like speed, Force powers and precognition (collectively) do make a difference in combat prowess.
Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Mar 5th, 2017 at 05:59 PM
And did I deny that? My argument is that Vitiate's victory was more likely and I have brought several points to the table to lend credibility to my argument.
That pause implies nothing. See my bee analogy above.
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Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Mar 5th, 2017 at 06:04 PM
Registered: Aug 2014
Location: The balance of the Force
R1: The Emperor dominates Fisto and Jinn, leaving Windu on his own. With the circumstantial boons he had whilst fighting Sheev, his Vaapad was still incapable of looping Sheev's full lightning. Without such a circumstance, he's not even performing that well.
R2: Vitiate destroys Fisto, Jinn and the droid, leaving Mace with a threat he is genuinely screwed against. Even FOTJ Luke was severely hampered on a less potent Dromund Kaas, the Dark Temple is far more potent than that.
__________________
Within your furnace heart, you burn in your own flame. This is how it feels to be Anakin Skywalker.
No-nexus novel Vitiate isn't dominating Fisto and Jinn with Mace breathing down his neck. He does it to Revan and Malak due to explicitly extenuating circumstances, but even by SWTOR on nexuses has to overpower Jedi strike teams first before he TPs them.
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Registered: Aug 2014
Location: The balance of the Force
He reduced an entire Dark Council to utter powerlessness with his mere presence. He made Tol Braga his servant with his mere presence, not telepathy. He chose not to TP them right away, that doesn't mean he couldn't. A simple brush of his mind put Scourge in the fetal position.
He was simultaneously breaking Revan, stalemating Sel-Makor, dominating the Dread Masters, suppressing Vaylin's power and dominating the First Son and his Children. As well as a laundry list of other things too.
Fisto and Jinn get fodderised.
__________________
Within your furnace heart, you burn in your own flame. This is how it feels to be Anakin Skywalker.
Mar 3rd, 2017 03:44 PM
