So, Wolverine and Sabertooth, along with Spider-Man can fight angels and gods? In all their collective history, they've never been beaten by mere mortal men? I guess the gap between meta and high herald is really blurred. Now, the infamous "Silver Surfer armbar incident" makes more sense to me!
Sorry, Ize, not trying to be disrespectful, but using high enders for the team and nit-picking apart on-page evidence for Orion for 10 pages seems silly.
__________________
Inspired by AlbertoJohnAvil with special thanks to Damborgson
Must have been something specific about your post. I can quote this post fine, but out of curiosity checked the other, and still didn't work. Just ended up blank. Not relevant to the topic itself, but annoying.
We see he actually just knows things about combat because of his nature. You showed me someone who does not have something like I showed and honestly you're reaching to say it's comparable. He's just really old and experienced, not a "god of battle." As for strength, was it simply stated he's stronger than Wolverine, or do we see by how much? I can show Darkseid being stronger.
Zack did make a bigger deal out of it than me, but it is pretty good. But your argument against his skill has largely been because of Azrael, someone who honestly doesn't compare like you're arguing.
As for Valkyra's stats, here's another example that she's physically powerful enough to take it from Orion.
I was actually referring to the mob scene specifically, since we only see him disappear. Not enough to tell if it was speed or the "ninja trick" Wolverine brings up to Nightcrawler.
And the thing is, those scans were brought up in response to me pointing out that(going by the rules as carter didn't specify) they'd be in a featureless environment, so I don't see the team's stealth being any real factor.
And even with the scans you've shown, considering Orion had not just the speed, but the awareness, accuracy and precision to catch a bullet fired at his back, then THROW IT INTO THE BARREL(think about how accurate he'd have to be to do that) while blind, blitzing people, again, while blind, blitzing Delta patrol, while in a coma, yeah, still not seeing their stealth being much of a factor, if at all. Also not seeing the webbing his eyes being the fight ending move carter insists on.
Nope, the argument has currently been focusing on a specific feat of Orion's against the ones you showed.
It's more badass, but the thing is, we don't actually know the speed either is going. Just that they're moving too fast to be seen. Your emphasizing their training is based entirely on a flawed conclusion from the article you cited, which itself comes down to, "We don't know how or why some people perceive time slower in emergencies." If it happened the way you're arguing, every police report of a shoot out the cop was in would read like a fight scene in a MATRIX script, minus the Kung Fu and acrobatics. So unless the comic specifically had it their training did what you're arguing, and I feel you can't prove it or you would have already shown a scan, it doesn't mean much if anything.
But since you're a stickler for training and numbers, here's something. They're not specifically trained to fight superhumans, but I feel their sheer numbers makes up for it. This is a graphic novel from 1999, but it takes place before Clark even became Superman. In fact, since it has him finding out he's bulletproof earlier, it can be argued he's less powerful(therefore slower) than when Byrne rebooted him. Clark fights thousands(estimated near 20,000) from the Chinese Army and moves too fast for them to see.
Pre-DOS Superman(I'm using "pre" somewhat loosely, including comics that take place before DEATH OF SUPERMAN even if published after) has better feats than this, as well, so I'm not grabbing that era's best feat. Darkseid(unless it Desaad duplicating Darkseid and pretending to be him) still moved too fast for Superman in that era could see.
Something interesting I noticed is, not counting some scans I gave for comparison(and ignoring examples that don't fit the thread rules), there's about as many examples posted for Orion as there are for the other team.....combined. Orion is heavily nerfed here, and going by the DC and Marvel Database sites(unofficial Wikipedia like, but the best source I can think of for this), Sabertooth alone has almost twice as many appearances as Orion(465 to 263 I think it was) and Sabertooth by far has the fewest appearances on his team. And while I'm sure everybody has appearances that don't really count included(like where they just appear in a scene, or stuff like Handbook entries), I feel Orion suffers the most. It includes several comics he appears in that are just reprints, a handful of comics that are of questionable continuity if not non canon for sure, lots of appearances where he's just in there(even for one panel) and doesn't actually do anything, and things like the DC ENCYCLOPEDIA(which counts twice).
The posters arguing for the team need to step up their game. Although carter would actually have to have game to begin with.
__________________ Bluewaterrider: "I'm surprised that a Skyfather like Zeus defeated Hulk when Zeus' Top-Tier son Hercules has lost to Hulk."
Absolutely. Yeah, so have angels and gods. Not really. What makes Orion a high herald is his prodigious strength and durability, combined with his equipment, astro force (which provides him with flight, regeneration, the ability to increase in size, the ability to power up, etc) speed and skill. Here, we're taking away his equipment and the astro force, so he's been brought down to the team's level, though again, he's the strongest of the four combatants here.
If Silver Surfer had been stripped of everything but his strength and a little speed, and Black Panther hadn't used a move that he could overwhelm with his strength, like an arm bar, but had gone for slicing attacks with his anti-metal claws, that fight would be a lot less cringe worthy. It still wouldn't be enough, but then everyone on this team brings more to a physical confrontation than Panther does.
There's a difference between nit-picking and analysis. If we had to simply take each others word on what each feat posted showed, this would be a very different site.
Except he had months to adapt to being sightless, while here he'll need to overcome the handicap almost instantly. It's a very different scenario, I think.
Not just old and experienced, he's the Angel of Death. (please log in to view the image)
It's his task to smite any who try to cheat death, and he's killed the undying for millenia. It's the purpose for which he was created. Stated, by Dr. Strange. If you want to have a feat war over who's more skilled, Orion or Wolverine, we can, but it was my understanding you were simply arguing for Orion's "on paper" skill. Seems odd that you're so insistent on feats to establish another character's "on paper" skill.
My argument against his skill being greater on paper, is built on another character who is described as having just as much skill, on paper.
Lol.
Except you brought it up in relation to my speed feats. Lol, if Wolverine's ninja trick has only been shown to work against regular people, same can be said for Orion's enhanced senses.
Which I showed to counter that feat, and instead of saying they don't match up, you've admitted they're as good.
No, my emphasizing their training was just my intuition, it simply makes sense to me. I used the article to prove a point, not that they are regularly going Matrix, but that they're much more used to the rush of combat, and that makes a difference.
We danced this dance already, remember? I concede that Orion is faster than any member of this team, and you aren't arguing that he's fast enough to blitz them, only that he's fast enough to keep up with all of them. Or has your opinion on that changed? Otherwise, this fight is an outlier that isn't necessary to prove your point.
Naw, that was just Wolverine haters. And what they always fail to take into account, is that even if he was stronger, Apocalypse didn't depower him afterwards, so he's retained any additional strength.
Even if Orion is nerfed, he's still the strongest, fastest, most durable on the field. It's hard to compare other top tiers to Orion, because he has everything.
Not the same thing at all. Obviously if he doesn't remove the webbing, he'll adapt to it, just saying it won't be instantaneous, there will be a moment of confusion. A moment they'll be able to take advantage of.
But, you have been nitpicking. How many pages did you go arguing the Darkseid fight at super speed didn't count because he was using equipment, when he wasn't?
Also, Orion's natural size is gigantic(as are the New Gods), it's the other way around. Their tech brings them down to human size in "our" world.
The part where we find out months had gone by, it was him being restrained, his energy and life force drained, and him thinking he was terrible for using the Anti-Life Equation and deserved what he got and should die. Are you arguing he adapted from months of not moving around, being drained and all emo?
None of your scans indicate him being the Angel of Death directly gives him anything special in regards to skill. So yes, just old and experienced.
I'm arguing it because you tried to counter it with an example that doesn't at all match what I showed for Orion. You showed a guy who's really old and experienced. And arguing because he's an Angel of Death, he's automatically got some special skill because of his status. I showed Orion just knows things about combat, 'cuz god of battle.
Except, you're reaching to argue he has just as much skill on paper. He does not.
Wait, after all the arguing you did about Wolverine moving that fast for TRAINED opponents with the assumption it made a difference, now you're going to argue that because it worked on regular people, it'll work on Orion despite his training, enhanced senses and super speed? This is definitely orders of magnitude greater difference than the difference between a teen girl and mobsters/soldiers.
Cool. Sneaking up on people he wasn't already in a fight with, the one with enhanced senses being asleep. That's not the case here.
Well, to be blunt, your intuition was wrong. And confirmation bias caused you to misunderstand the very article you used to back your argument. Your argument was under the assumption that training increases time perception. You looked for something to back this argument, and found an article about that there are examples of people who have had time slow to a crawl in dangerous situations. It did cite people trained, but you took this as definitive proof, when the article only said it MAY be a factor.
The closest thing other than it may, is that training helps when they DO experience it, as people who are untrained are more likely to panic. As you're not kinda taking this route. But it's still a faulty argument. For an analogy(not perfect, but it'll do), it would be like me going, "HAH!! I beat this world class race car driver in a race." When my car started, his didn't. All his driving skill is irrelevant if his car isn't working. All the training won't help if you don't have one of those time slowing experiences(which they're still trying to figure out the how and why).
Them being "used to the rush of combat" doesn't make a difference if their opponent is going faster than they can see. Unless the comic actually stated their training increased their time perceptions(certainly a possibility, 'cuz, comics), them being trained doesn't
You argue an outlier for someone who's feats mostly don't have indication of how fast, but he does have super speed, but you've argued him taking hits from Top-Tier bricks, and they have far more appearances to draw from. If you're going to argue that it's an outlier, then I'm going to dismiss any example of anybody from the team taking hits from Hulk or whoever as outliers unless you can provide more examples of them doing that than their fights with far lower contradict. Pick your poison.
hmmmm Making me think I should argue with you that he was amped and you have to prove it stuck for several pages after your argument for Darkseid/Orion that he was using equipment.
Or I could just argue that Orion's natural size is at least dwarfing Earth and end the debate here.
__________________ Bluewaterrider: "I'm surprised that a Skyfather like Zeus defeated Hulk when Zeus' Top-Tier son Hercules has lost to Hulk."
I disagree. Attempting to fully understand feats I had no context on also isn't nitpicking.
I was referring to the scans where Orion was massively larger than Darkseid and his generals on Apocalypse. Were they using tech to shrink down there too?
Well, yeah. He was restrained, but he wasn't sense deprived, was he? He'd been blinded, he spent months being unable to see, and his other senses adapted. Again, not saying it'd take months for that to happen again, but he also wouldn't simply keep going like nothing would happen, it'd be similar to somebody who's fighting in the dark suddenly seeing a flash of light.
Sorry, I'll be back later to finish my reply, have to go now. Bye.
But you were given the context. I even showed you Orion without the Astro-Harness needing gear to fly in the same series.
Zack's scan isn't working for me(I guess moved or deleted) and I don't recognize the scene you're describing. I'm going on something else. Note the size of the burning worlds(looks like fireballs) compared to Superman in the second scan, and Superman and Orion's conversation starting last panel third scan and into the fourth scan.
I'm sorry, him knowing about various battles, and the science of the weaponry, is not proof that he knows everything about combat. The scan showed that he knew about the most significant battles in history, and since he's a genius scientist, as Zack argued, it's no wonder he has an intimate understanding of weaponry.
Azrael's realm of knowledge is the soul, not science, so I don't have a counter for that, but it's not like you showed Orion's innate knowledge of every fighting style in existence, or his ability to counter any move thrown at him just because he's the "God of Battle." You know, skills that would be useful in a fight where he's stripped of his gear.
No, I'm pointing out the double standard. Because Orion had senses good enough that he could beat regular people blind, isn't enough to say that he'd be able to detect Wolverine or Sabertooth while blinded, like you tried to claim.
The point is how much sneakier Wolverine is than the thugs Orion was fighting blind. Jean was actively using her telepathy to keep track of everyone in and around the mansion, and failed to detect him, and Sabertooth snuck up on Wolverine (so enhanced senses) who was completely aware he was coming, and attempting to detect him.
This is the part of the article I was talking about :
"Skilled surfers can adjust their boards and bodies in freefall takeoff on large steep hollow waves at exactly the angle to ride the wave as the lip barrels over their head. Skilled kayakers can adjust boat, body, and paddle so as to take exactly the one survivable line through rapids and over waterfalls. Less skilled participants perceive only confusion, and are likely to freeze, panic, or act in ways which increase danger (Buckley, 2012). It is also experience and training which allow skilled exponents of many physical arts to achieve feats which appear impossibly fast and precise. There are many examples in ball and boardsports, gymnastics, acrobatics, dance, martial arts, archery, shooting, swordsmanship, and in aircraft, car and motorbike racing and stunt driving."
Nothing about unskilled people experiencing increased time perception and panicking, instead it states that unskilled people don't perceive what more skilled people do, and only see confusion where skilled athletes see exactly the path they need to take so as to not wipe out.
It's this ability of athletes to achieve this lesser version of slow motion perception that suggests to the researcher that we may be able to achieve intentionally what only happens inadvertently for most, and occasionally for trained athletes, the "Matrix" like perception of time that I was never arguing Wolverine's opponents had.
The above is just so it is clear what my argument was, I'm not actually continuing it. You conceding that those two feats are equivalent to Orion moving faster than the girl could see is enough for me.
No, I'm pointing out that given your argument, it's an outlier, and isn't what you're claiming is his standard speed. Given that, why spend more time discussing it?
My bad on that argument, like I said, I was still gathering information on character, and after my experience arguing about Thor, where countless feats of Thor's hammer flying him at super speed were presented as hammerless speed feats, I wasn't willing to give the benefit of the doubt. I was wrong, I'm sorry I was so frustrating.
Using a boom tube to enter the fight isn't using equipment during it, and it would go against the purpose of the thread to have him fight them at such a size.
I know you wrote this before my above response, so I'll just say it applies here as well. I was searching for context, I just wasn't willing to take anything at face value.
Again, not to say that he isn't naturally huge, just that he is capable of using the astro force to increase his size, and that's not allowed here.
I don't see how it's a reach, seems like much more of one to assume that he'll have no adjustment to make if he's blinded. Of course, he could just tear off the webbing, but even that will slow him down.
Wow, clearly you're done with this thread since you keep spamming that obviously nonsensical argument. I understand, come back when you're a bit more ready to reason, ok? I've had fun, if you're not, I won't claim victory if you take a break.
"I'm a god of BATTLE, Arnicus. There is very LITTLE about war and weaponry that I do NOT know."
We specifically have him say there's little he does NOT know about war and weaponry, after saying he's a god of BATTLE. He even emphasizes "battle." He doesn't say he knows this because he's a genius who happens to know about battles, science and weaponry, he says he's a god of battle and that there's little he does not know about war and weaponry.
Again, your argument that Orion knew that because science is invalid. He specifically states being a god of battle and brings up there's little of war or weaponry he doesn't know. Unless you're arguing skill isn't part of war, which I'm hoping you won't, I would say that covers it. And you've seen Orion fight with skill and not using gear.
I wasn't aware they were using Ninja Tricks all fight every fight, but I think having the environmental awareness and precision to accurately throw a bullet into the barrel of a gun is a touch more impressive than fighting random opponents while blind. I actually wasn't thinking of them doing the Ninja Trick after the webbing in that response, anyways.
So, sneaking when they weren't in a fight to begin with means they're going to sneak up on him immediately. Well, I guess then Orion just blitzes them at the start, if you want to argue this route.
You're trying to argue because it says those who know what they're doing pull that stuff off, and those who are unskilled tend to panic.
You straight up argued that their time perception was greater, and linked this article. From the post that won't let me quote it.
So, yes, you did argue that their time perception was better than training. No reason for you to bring it up multiple times unless you thought their training meant you needed greater speed to move faster than they could see compared to normal people. But your source was actually an article about the different hypotheses.
If you're going to argue this an outlier, then I want you to show me that Wolverine taking hits from characters in Orion's class is the norm. Otherwise, you're arguing high-end feats while dismissing feats you can't match as outliers. Which is a double standard, something you have accused me of.
(grouping these)
I understand things like being lied to, but there's some other issues here beyond not willing to give the benefit of the doubt. Even ignoring others were saying it wasn't equipment based, and me showing Orion without the Astro-Harness, but with the Astro Gauntlets, using non standard equipment to fly in the same series(before losing access to the Astro-Force), Orion was kicking at super speed.
This was pretty early in the fight, and more obvious than the running part that had you realize he was moving that had you concede. You missed it? You're making me think you only conceded because you decided to fall back on dismissing it's an outlier.
I've actually been giving you the benefit of the doubt. I asked why Azrael kept making such a big deal about Wolverine's soul earlier in the thread. You quoted me, but didn't answer. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt you just missed it, instead that there's something you're leaving out that makes it contextual for Wolverine beating Azrael.
Oh that? I had always seen it as something similar to a GL construct, with the Astro-Force, instead of him growing in size, but it doesn't say what it was.
__________________ Bluewaterrider: "I'm surprised that a Skyfather like Zeus defeated Hulk when Zeus' Top-Tier son Hercules has lost to Hulk."
You're arguing that he'd be adapted to moving around like he did blind because he was restrained, had his energy and life force drained, and was being all emo. And you justify it as he'd adapt because he'd still have his other senses. THIS is a nonsensical argument.
(grouping together)
Actually, I was making a joke, but unlike arguments you've made(Orion just knew history and science when the scan stats it's war as well as weaponry he knows, that even though you admit Azrael doesn't have anything like I've shown for Orion he "totally is the same"), I can make a valid argument. The topic says nothing about Orion Boom Tubes in, so unless he happens to be in the normal universe or a similar sized universe, he'd be his natural size. It's actually a more valid argument than he had months to adjust to being blind, given what actually occurred during those months. What was that about "ready to reason," again?
__________________ Bluewaterrider: "I'm surprised that a Skyfather like Zeus defeated Hulk when Zeus' Top-Tier son Hercules has lost to Hulk."
Little, not nothing. And it's not an invalid argument, it absolutely has to be considered. If he weren't a scientific genius, he may well know about various important battles, and what weapons were used in them, without understanding them on the fundamental level that he clearly does.
I'm arguing that he's never shown an intimate understanding of martial arts on the level that he showed an intimate understanding of that weapon. I've seen him fight, I've never seen him demonstrate more skill than Wolverine possesses.
The ninja trick is Wolverine's, not Wolverine's and Sabertooth's. And using stealth isn't regulated to using the ninja trick, especially if Orion's blinded by Spider-man. The only reason I brought up those stealth scans, is because you claimed he could sense them even while blind, and I wanted to show that sensing some mooks is not the same as sensing two of Marvel's stealthiest characters.
You seem not to understand that this is an argument of degrees. You claimed it was no more impressive for Wolverine to move faster than mobsters/soldiers could see, than it was for Orion to move faster than a child could see.
Hence me quoting the last finding, the part "at least to some degree, some trained individuals can actively turn on slow-time perception and processing. This is part of the process of “pumping up” used by skilled athletes preparing for a difficult performance." Note, the "at least to some degree." Yes increased time perception, no Matrix like ability to see in slow motion.
Those who are unskilled don't just panic, they are unable to perceive things moving at speeds that skilled people are able to perceive.
Again, not my argument, yours. You yourself said you aren't arguing Orion is as fast as Superman. Then why show a fight where he's fighting someone faster than Superman? Is it to
a) show that he is in fact faster than Superman? This contradicts your earlier statement.
b) show a fight where he isn't moving faster than Superman? Then we don't know how fast he's moving, or have any way to judge it compared to the speeds Wolverine, Sabetooth, and Spider-man are capable of fighting at.
If it's a, then you're changing your argument, and the debate will change. If it's b, then it doesn't prove what you want it to prove, and we can ignore it and continue the debate without it.
If he was flying to achieve superspeed, then the kicks didn't need to be superfast. After all, I've never doubted he's super strong, and after a super fast, super strong opening kick, it's bound to give him time to land the others. I know now that he wasn't flying, but it looked like it to me, and in general, when I'm asked to believe either someone else, or my own lying eyes, I tend to go with my own lying eyes. It led to me making a mistake here, and I've acknowledged it.
Sorry, I did miss it. Azrael's job is to smite who God tells him to smite, lead souls to the afterlife, and, in the case of beings who cheat death, to smite them when death should claim them.
Wolverine beat him the first time his healing factor saved him from death, and that was Azrael's one shot, at least on this plane. Wolverine also beat him in the afterlife, each time he almost died in the comics, and it pissed Azrael off, especially since Wolverine kept killing such large amounts of folks.
There also might be a connection between them. Wolverine is the reincarnation of the Hand of God, a warrior chosen by God to slay evil, back in biblical times. Azrael told Wolverine he wasn't immune to envy, and said Wolverine had killed far too many people. Was he jealous that another of God's servants was kinda doing his job better than he did? Maybe. There's nothing there about Wolverine having some special supernatural reason for being more skilled than him, though.
Oh, there is one thing. Wolverine's first win meant Azrael couldn't beat him on Earth anymore, but the fight where Wolverine outskills him takes place on Earth, so it's skewed, right? Wrong, that only applied to a fully souled Wolverine, and part of his soul was trapped as Shogun, the other guy he's fighting. So that fight was all skill too.
No it doesn't, but Zack included it among his abilities, so I did too, when listing Astro Force abilities. Didn't mean to imply I thought Orion was normal size on New Genesis.
Listen, senses adapting in the absence of another sense doesn't require a conscious decision. It's far more nonsensical to argue that because his senses were heightened after months of being blind, that he would require no time to adapt to being blinded mid fight.
Well, since you kept repeating the joke, I thought you'd given up actually debating. Glad to see I was wrong I look forward to your next reply.
KMC Community Forums
May 6th, 2017 02:58 PM
Bluewaterrider: "I'm surprised that a Skyfather like Zeus defeated Hulk when Zeus' Top-Tier son Hercules has lost to Hulk."
This is reaching even more than "Angel of Death is totally the same as god of battle." But it doesn't matter, since the team are microbes to Orion. 
