BTW, I'm specifically debating ant here so firguve me If I don't get drawn into an enlogated debate here.
1. I actually acknowledged the legs
2. I acknowledged this as well so I'm not sure why you're asking me to not forget it. I also explained in detail why I find kenobi had the edge given Kenobi's hits did more.
3.I never said Maul was neccesarily at Kenobi's mercy there. But given that the kick inflicted enough pain on maul he needed a full 6 seconds(i was wrong to say 7) to fully recover, I feel it's more than fair to assert Maul would have been at a disadvantageous situation if Kenobi pressed an offensive(as we see from their fight in the cave, kenobi absolutely can do this) which is enough for to me consider Kenobi's hit significant. Given that Kenobi landed the only significant hit of their inconclusive bout, I'd say Kenobi had the edge.
4.Don't use "even more". You know full well the first 'more focused" was because Kenobi wasn't kod twice and tortured this time around. You're correct that Kenobi gained more focus after Galia's death, but the assertion this wasn't Kenobi focusing himself and was externally based is still baseless and seems unlikely given feloni's statement that Adi Galia did not empower kenobi but rather kenobi's own personality traits(being a hero, kindness) were what Kenobi's focus spoke to. This is canon only, shadow conspiracy isn't even a thing. If we tapped into legends I can easily ignore the enviromental advatages which are outright contradicted by the episode while simultaneously debunking your assertion Kenobi was amped circumstantially by pointing you to the numerous times Kenobi has focused himself at will.
5. Don't need to as Maul has failed to tk Kenobi in the circumstances outlined by this op despite displaying a clear willingness to when circumstances give him an opportunity to.
Kenobi, in TCW, never beat Maul. At all.
Maul, however, beat Kenobi when both were hindered.
Kenobi stomping is absolutely unfounded.
And LOL at me not being a real debater, especially coming from Kbro.
__________________ "Once more, the Sith will rule the galaxy! And... we shall have... peace."
I know. Was just giving a summary of the my main rebuttals. After that I know it will go around in circles.
You seem to be in denial over Kenobi's mental clarity though. Filoni clearly stated Kenobi was "properly focused" at the start of the Florrum fight, then "even more focused" after Adi died. Hence it's pretty clear that 2 on 1 was a Super Peak performance, and definitely not Kenobi's regular mind set.
The fact Obi-Wan had more time to grow between The Clone Wars and Revenge of the Sith is irrelevant. It's irrelevant because all characters grow at different speeds and under different circumstances, with their potential generally being the best way to gauge said speed. Not only that, but the growth of a character is not linear. Characters, especially prodigies, generally grow rapidly in short-bursts and then have a duration of remaining stagnant.
So, we have Mother Talzin, an individual immensely powerful and knowledgeable in the dark side and rare magics - so much so that Sidious considered her as candidate number one as his Sith apprentice. But then he saw Maul, just as a young child, and he took Maul instead, which speaks volumes for Maul's Force potential. Now, here's the interesting part: Maul, as per Dave Filoni, was trained by Sidious in "all the machinations the Sith had been able to survive." Further, Sam Witwer, sitting next to Filoni with the latter in agreement, said, "he's got to be good in just about everything" and that Palpatine had "a lot of investment there" in Maul. In other interviews, Filoni continues to emphasize the point, restating that "he was a well-trained apprentice and that he would start to do the things he was trained to do: to build armies, to deceive people, to create a power base for himself."
What this all means is that, unlike the Legends continuity, Maul, as a legitimate Sith apprentice, was formally trained to be Sidious' successor. In Canon, it is outright stated that Sidious "values the Sith Rule of Two above all else," which is demonstrated in Sidious' conversation with Maul in The Lawless. As Dave Filoni talks about here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qKTRP9s4sw), just because a Sith master trains their apprentice to surpass them doesn't mean they actually want them to, nor does that mean Sidious wouldn't try to kill Maul when the day came that the two of them fought, but nonetheless he trained Maul so that Maul could fit the bill for a legitimate Dark Lord of the Sith. I'd be silly if I didn't also note that at least three different sources have noted that Maul is one of the most dangerous and highly trained Sith in the history of the Order. This speaks volumes for both his potential and the training he has had as of The Phantom Menace, given that on their talk with each other on Coruscant, Sidious suggests that Maul's training is complete and it's time to move to the real deal.
Frankly, I could take this to far greater levels, but for the moment, I want all this information to be focused in the context of power growth. The assertion that Obi-Wan grew more than Maul since their first fight because there is a bigger gap in time is patently baseless because Maul's potential is simply so much greater and more defined than Obi-Wan's. Maul is someone who might have one day challenged and defeated Sidious. Obi-Wan's never getting there - not even close. Thus, it is completely reasonable to say, with additional backing as I'll prove later in this post, that Maul grew more between his resurrection and the death of Mother Talzin (perhaps over an entire year time-span) than Obi-Wan did between Maul's resurrection and his fight with Anakin.
Now, this is just crazy to me. I really can't wrap my head around this argument. "Likely rusty?"
Maul had not fought a lightsaber duel for over ten years.
Lightsaber combat, nor the Force, is not something you can stop for a decade and then just think you're going to be "rusty." You're going to be hell of a lot more than rusty, and that should be obvious. Also, Dave Filoni has discussed that George Lucas is of the view that when Force-users don't use the Force for long periods of time, their connection with the Force begins to fade away, as demonstrated by Maul struggling to initially lift his lightsaber when Savage Opress gives it back to him. Yes, Mother Talzin brought removed the madness within Maul and yes, Maul presumably has dark-side magicks within him, but within Canon, there's little indication he is restored back to his original power right off the gate. Everything points to the contrary, rather, especially with that lightsaber scene.
Overall, it's going to take Maul time to get back to his original power - it's going to take time for Maul to get back into the groove with lightsaber fighting.
As of this fight, which takes place the same episode he is "reborn," he's absolutely not back to where he was, let alone where is he is in Son of Dathomir.
Most importantly, that's demonstrated in how he fights, which we'll get to now.
These are the first lightsaber strikes Maul is dishing out for a decade. Worst yet, he's in burdensome legs and a terrible environment to fight in. Now, that might not seem like a big deal, but it rather is - so much so that Dave Filoni pointed it out and said he changed Maul's legs to new ones so that he would be able to perform acrobatic feats again (as we see against Sidious). After all Maul is a powerful, energetic, and fast-paced duelist - many ways embodying the prequel trilogy era of lightsaber combat. Here, he has little-to-no room for maneuverability, especially due to his clunky legs. If you watch Maul fight before he manages to kick Obi-Wan twice, he is almost entirely stationary to a ridiclous degree, which is in stark contrast to his fighting style in The Phantom Menace. More interestingly, in the two instances you cited, it has Maul attempting to move - the first instance by moving around Obi-Wan, the second instance running toward him. This visibly demonstrates Maul's current weakness with the legs. He's unable to maneuver and move around and with Obi-Wan comfortably and effectively, and as a result, is almost defeated.
However, after these two instances, Maul learns from his failures, adapts to his new legs, and manages to land two devastating kicks against Obi-Wan. I'd wager Maul could have killed him between the two kicks if he wanted to, but just as Obi-Wan wasn't going in for the kill, Maul isn't either. Maul wants to capture Obi-Wan, not kill him. This is explicitly stated by him in The Lawless. As we will see when I tear apart the second fight, weaknesses still exist with these big legs. Such flaws, however, are notably absent in his fight against Sidious. If you click here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwktH2gGnPk&t=1m16s) and here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwktH2gGnPk&t=1m41s) you can see levels of mobility that are far greater than what he originally displayed against Obi-Wan in the cited performance.
For the record, Obi-Wan being physically bruised does not equate to these conditions in any way. Obi-Wan is famous for taking a beating. He does not display any visibly injuries that would handicap his performance going into the fight, so I have no reason to believe any exist besides the possibility that some of his hair might have got in his eyes at certain parts of the fight.
When debating, I'd advise not to address everything in your opener, since chances are you're wasting time covering topics the opponent has no interest in even bringing up.
This fight is interesting because looking at it passively and looking at it closely will seem a lot different.
Throughout the entire fight, there is consistently three different ways Obi-Wan seizes the advantage versus Maul.
1) What I've dubbed as "The Kick," is, as the name suggests, kicking Maul in the groin. Due to his new legs, Maul's groin area is noticeably longer and larger. This has already been a notable weak point for Maul back in The Phantom Menace, but now, the weakness is exaggerated even further. While Maul has adapted to some elements of his new legs, he has yet to come up with a solution to this. As a result, Obi-Wan, who's demonstrated throughout his fights with everyone that he's exceptional at landing kicks, is able to successfully kick Maul. This weaknesses, however, is resolved by the time of The Lawless. Sidious kicks Maul in the same spot twice during their fight. In the first time, Maul is able to recover fast enough to dodge a quick-moving strike by Sidious aimed specifically at removing his arm (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwktH2gGnPk&t=1m40s), but killing him, so I see no reason to assume this attack is not at least a resemblance of Sidious' true speed, or at the very least, is not faster than whatever Obi-Wan can strike. In the second instance where Maul is kicked, he is able to transition into a back-flip and then defend himself against a devastating assault by Sidious that would have otherwise torn him to pieces. Again, note that, in particularly this instance, Sidious would be traveling much faster than Obi-Wan would (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwktH2gGnPk&t=3m18s). Thus, Maul has progressed forward from this particular performance against Obi-Wan. If Obi-Wan tries this technique again, it will not work, since even Sidious himself was unable to end the fight this way.
2) In the particular kick instance where Maul was disorientated for a duration of time, it appears Obi-Wan kicked his face. Additionally, Obi-Wan was in a leveraged position and Maul's taller than he would normally be due to the legs (insert high-ground joke here), allowing him to strike Maul's head where he might have otherwise hit his chest which would have then made him vulnerable to being cut in half. Perhaps most importantly, if Obi-Wan would have pressed the attack against Maul in this stance, I find it unlikely that Maul would have remained like he was. Maul has handled feeling the slashes of a thousand Jedi striking him and being cut in two. His pain tolerance is arguably the greatest in all of Canon, or at least high among the list. In a situation where Obi-Wan would be about to kill him, Maul would likely summon the necessary strength to deflect it and continue the fight. Since Obi-Wan was not, Maul allowed himself a moment to channel his rage and recover since he was not in particular danger. Also, your claim that he was out of the game for seven seconds is baseless. Maul is visibly only out of the game for about two. We do not know what happened the other five seconds. When it cuts back to him, you see him staring at Obi-Wan. To me, this suggests that while he had yet to fully recovered, he has recovered to the point that he would have absolutely been able to defend himself if Obi-Wan pressed the attack. It's also worth mentioning that since even Sidious didn't land a blow to Maul's head with a kick, I find it unlikely Obi-Wan can replicate such a blow again under neutral conditions and without sensing a fellow Jedi's death, which would obviously compel to get Maul off of him and go check things out, immediately before it happened. This particular rebuttal is continued later on when we get to the "ragdolling" section, so stay tuned.
Also, kicking is not synonymous with penetrating lightsaber defenses. Just because you could kick someone doesn't mean you could have slashed them there instead.
3) If you look at how Maul fights against Obi-Wan when Savage is with him, something is immediately noticeable. Whenever Maul presses the attack, Obi-Wan is generally able to go off that momentum and then kick and/or attack Savage. Thus, Maul is limited with his options, as demonstrated by the fact that he is, again, almost completely stationary. Maul is not in a situation where he could just launch an all-out assault against Obi-Wan when Savage is in the position where he is. That would be, demonstrably, putting his brother at risk. Overall, too, we see Maul in a situation that is extremely narrow and presents him no room to perform the acrobatic assaults that is essential to his form of lightsaber combat. Maul's just completely disadvantaged here. Ultimately, the fact Savage is fighting alongside Maul does not help, but rather hinders, Maul's possibilities.
There's really no ground to stand on for that. This particular fight we are having is essentially Maul vs Obi-Wan with all the conditions that let Obi-Wan do what he did gone: Savage Opress is absent so Maul doesn't have to be stationary, there's no dead Jedi that may allow Obi-Wan uncanny focus (Kenobi might not be empowered by the deaths of others, but that doesn't mean it can't increase his focus, especially considering these other circumstances), Maul has new legs so he's going to be able to handle the kicks and will be able to move about far more freely, and the environment would not be disadvantageous to Maul so, again, he's not so constrained and restricted. Obi-Wan, unlike Maul, is able to fight in such constrained spaces due to the benefits of a defensive style with minimal movement.
Not only that, but Maul, now in his Son of Dathomir incarnation, is now going to be even more skilled and even more powerful than last time around!
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Last edited by DarthAnt66 on Aug 2nd, 2017 at 05:14 AM
For Obi-Wan to actually beat Darth Maul, he's going to need to dish out attacks of his own. He's not just going to be capable of defending himself - he's not going to tire out Maul given Maul's amazing willpower, stamina, endurance, etc. However, the issue with that is that, as Nick Gillard has stated, aggression is Obi-Wan's weaknesses. We see an exaggerated form of that when he loses it against Maul in their first battle in The Clone Wars, but that's also demonstrated in his other fights against Maul and Dooku.
If you look through all of these instances, you will see it almost heard of that a character telekinetically grapples a prepared opponent:
In Canon, telekinesis is done almost exclusively when there is an opening in the opponent's defenses.
I say almost, because this is one of the extremely rare moments when someone outright dominates another opponent.
Yes, Obi-Wan is injured. I really doubt severely since all that happened to him was a fall and some heat that you can feel at a 4D roller coaster, but nonetheless injured.
Yet, I do not excuse that as justification for Maul's handling of Obi-Wan, especially considering the ease at which Maul did it.
While Maul likely cannot replicate this straight out of the gate in this fight, it further shows that when Obi-Wan shows a weakness, which he will based on his record, Maul will thrash him.
So, let's recap. Throughout his fights against Obi-Wan, Maul has constantly been placed in disadvantaged situations. In their first fight, Maul hasn't fought with a lightsaber in over a decade, has new legs that completely handicap his mobility, and is stuck in an incredibly narrow environment. In the first stage of their second fight, Maul visibly pushed Obi-Wan back at the beginning. Obi-Wan was able to kick Maul's head and temporarily disorientate him, but as covered thoroughly, the opportunity to not only do so again, but also then defeat Maul due to said kick, is next-to-none. In the second stage, Maul was at a multitude of disadvantages, such as not being able to launch an assault since every time he did it would hurt Savage, continued restricted mobility due to both his legs and the environment, and having a notable weakness against kicks that Obi-Wan may have exploited this time around but has been patched up for this fight, as shown against Sidious.
Speaking of Sidious, Maul's performance against Sidious at the end is amazing. I'd like to remind all that the novel stating Maul could only perceive Sidious in a blur is Legends, not Canon. Yes, Sidious was superior, but Maul was capable of contending with him for a healthy twenty-four seconds, in which strikes were being dished out perhaps the fastest seen in Star Wars besides the Battle of the Heroes in Revenge of the Sith. Also, Maul was able to even temporarily gain the upper-hand against Sidious: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7h...yg&t=4m13s. In a brilliant move, Maul attacks downward, forcing Sidious to jump up. As he descends down, Maul kicks him, forcing Sidious back a considerable distance. Sidious is shown frowning in distaste afterwards.
Ultimately, this performance represents the pinnacle of what Maul can do (and no, Force rage "amps" don't exist in Canon). And frankly, it's not looking good for Obi-Wan. Even if Obi-Wan can survive Maul's devastating assault that took Sidious a respectable amount of time to dismantle, he's going to need to then launch an assault that's capable of tearing apart what Sidious could not even tear apart until a blade-lock, while also worrying about Maul capitalizing on the momentary weakness and using the Force.
I know there's some old quotes around talking about how Soresu just delays the inevitable. Well, in this situation, it's doing just that.
PS: The fact a Canon book, personally endorsed by Pablo Hidalgo, Leland Chee, and the Story Group, states Maul is a better duelist than Dooku, which essentially means he's better than Obi-Wan too, cannot be completely overlooked. While I hate using anything definitive, the fact such a quote exists, and an author of the book said it's likely referring to skill, must be considered as additional reasoning for Maul's victory over Obi-Wan. And since I know that you do take such things as authoritative, I'd be interested in your reasoning to not just ignore it, but then continue to say Obi-Wan is winning so definitively that Maul fighting his Revenge of the Sith incarnation wouldn't even "be a match."
All of the above might be relevant if TCW Maul still had TPM Maul's potential. Fortunately though, Kenobi did a little something to make Maul's growth slow down a bit: https://youtu.be/D7w4x3S2lag?t=4m47s
And unfortunately, Leland Chee can't bail you out of this one.
Here's the quote you've been misusing: https://twitter.com/HolocronKeeper/...437960934662145
The answer never ever says anything about Maul having the same potential, but mentioned his power. Strength in the force, logically, would be referring to actualized power here, at least as chee interpreted it given he gave an answer regarding actualized power, not potential.
Maul didn't diminish in terms of actualized power, but his potential was crippled per Lucas's statement about limbs and power.
Frankly, I'm wondering how you were planning to reconcile Maul being sids-tier potential wise to him having his growth eclipsed by Ben Kenobi's in the 15 years afterwards.
Last edited by Rockydonovang on Aug 2nd, 2017 at 06:05 AM
You're misunderstanding. If you scroll through the rest of the feed, the question is asked why Vader seemed to lose so much power, in which Chee responded by essentially saying that aspect of Canon is still undefined at this point, but did dismiss Lucas' quotes as meaning much of anything. Force power has nothing to do with losing limbs or not. If they did, larger characters would generally always be stronger than smaller ones, due to more cells meaning more midichlorians. Thus, potential is specifically the amount of midichlorians per cell, which is exactly what Qui-Gon measures in Anakin, and that has not changed for Maul. Thus, his potential should be the same.
You completely skipped most of my post, by the way. I'd advise you not to rush.
Yea Ant, never in the comments below does chee ever say what Lucas said is wrong. What he says is that you have to address whether Lucas's comments are contradicted in response to the questioner asking about Lucas's assertion Vader lost a lot of "power" not potential.
When asked about Lucas's statement about potential directly, Chee psoted the equivalent of a idk because he didn't know how to quantify things like force potential with a metric.
And yes maul had superior training, maul also spent a decade plus on a trash planet while Kenobi grew as a jedi
I never said he said Lucas was wrong, I said he dismissed Lucas' quotes as being relevant to this discussion. For the record, again, you failed to respond to even my newest post and the issue with you thinking limbs mean anything. Responding to one sentence in a number of sentences does not mean all of them have been covered. Go back and respond again. But first you have to respond to everything else. Take your time and relax.