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US Supreme Pizza Part II: Bake a Cake
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Surtur
Senior Member

Gender: Male
Location: Chicago

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Shouldn't freedom and equality hold equal weight as primciples?


"Freedom breeds inequality. Unless you have freedom to be unequal, there is no such thing as freedom." - William F. Buckley, Jr.


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Old Post Dec 7th, 2017 08:21 PM
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Beniboybling
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Since you are apparently incompetent, here you go.
Lmao, this makes for an amusing read. laughing out loud


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Old Post Dec 7th, 2017 08:57 PM
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snowdragon
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quote:
Justice Samuel Alito suggested that it was “very odd” that, in 2012, Craig and Mullins could not have gotten married in Colorado or had their Massachusetts wedding recognized by the state, but Phillips could get in trouble for refusing to make them a cake to celebrate their same-sex marriage.


Lulz

Old Post Dec 7th, 2017 09:46 PM
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Surtur
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by snowdragon
Lulz


Lol wait a minute...what? Is that true?


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Old Post Dec 7th, 2017 09:53 PM
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Rockydonovang
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Surtur
"Freedom breeds inequality. Unless you have freedom to be unequal, there is no such thing as freedom." - William F. Buckley, Jr.

Right, which is why you need to have a balance between the two principles.

A society with just freedom or just equality would be a very bad one.

Old Post Dec 7th, 2017 10:00 PM
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Rockydonovang
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the relationship between sexuality and religion is merely a social construct and hence irrelevant.

Old Post Dec 7th, 2017 10:02 PM
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snowdragon
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Surtur
Lol wait a minute...what? Is that true?


Yes it is, just like he didn't deny other baked goods to the couple. They could have bought food when they were there, he just said no to making a wedding cake, not we don't service gay couples here.


quote:
But Jack Phillips, the owner of the bakery, refused to make them a cake. Phillips, who describes himself as a “cake artist,” is also a Christian who closes his business on Sundays and refuses to design custom cakes that conflict with his religious beliefs – for example, cakes that contain alcohol, have Halloween themes or celebrate a divorce or same-sex marriage.


It's all right here

Old Post Dec 7th, 2017 10:05 PM
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Surtur
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When is this case going to be decided?


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Old Post Dec 7th, 2017 10:05 PM
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Surtur
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Gender: Male
Location: Chicago

quote: (post)
Originally posted by snowdragon
Yes it is, just like he didn't deny other baked goods to the couple. They could have bought food when they were there, he just said no to making a wedding cake, not we don't service gay couples here.




It's all right here


Okay so there it is. He refused to make the design they wanted because he felt it conflicted with his religious beliefs. This shouldn't have even gone to trial, it's ridiculous.


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Old Post Dec 7th, 2017 10:06 PM
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Emperordmb
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Shouldn't freedom and equality hold equal weight as primciples?

Depends on the type of equality.

If you're talking about equality under the law, then yes absolutely that shouldn't be infringed upon, but equality under the law isn't a form of equality that forces a concession on liberty, rather it is conducive to liberty, and they are not principles in opposition to each other here.

Equality of access to private services is much more sketchy, less compelling a case on principle, and less fundamental a principle than either equality under the law or freedom of speech, so if equality of access to other people's private services is weighed against freedom of speech, freedom of speech is absolutely more important because to censor or compel someone's speech with force is absolutely a violation of their natural rights, and a private business discriminating... not so much. A person has much more entitlement to their own words than a person does to somebody else's labor.

And lastly if you're talking about equality of outcome... equality of outcome is flat out immoral and is the principle behind Marxism. If you were to way freedom and equality in economics, they are most certainly not equal principles. If you have a completely unregulated economy, total economic freedom, you might think that's not desirable, you might think it abandons too many people, but it would certainly be a favorable system to the complete opposite end of the spectrum in a communist state for example, whereas the extreme of economic liberty may leave a minority of people miserable, the extreme of economic equality makes everyone equal in how miserable they are.


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Old Post Dec 7th, 2017 10:22 PM
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Surtur
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Depends on the type of equality.

If you're talking about equality under the law, then yes absolutely that shouldn't be infringed upon, but equality under the law isn't a form of equality that forces a concession on liberty, rather it is conducive to liberty, and they are not principles in opposition to each other here.

Equality of access to private services is much more sketchy, less compelling a case on principle, and less fundamental a principle than either equality under the law or freedom of speech, so if equality of access to other people's private services is weighed against freedom of speech, freedom of speech is absolutely more important because to censor or compel someone's speech with force is absolutely a violation of their natural rights, and a private business discriminating... not so much. A person has much more entitlement to their own words than a person does to somebody else's labor.

And lastly if you're talking about equality of outcome... equality of outcome is flat out immoral and is the principle behind Marxism. If you were to way freedom and equality in economics, they are most certainly not equal principles. If you have a completely unregulated economy, total economic freedom, you might think that's not desirable, you might think it abandons too many people, but it would certainly be a favorable system to the complete opposite end of the spectrum in a communist state for example, whereas the extreme of economic liberty may leave a minority of people miserable, the extreme of economic equality makes everyone equal in how miserable they are.


Yep, they so often confuse equality of opportunity with equality of outcome.


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Old Post Dec 7th, 2017 10:40 PM
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Surtur
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So hey, can I go in a muslim bakery and demand a cake that says "Jerusalem has been and always will be the capital of Israel" ?


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Old Post Dec 7th, 2017 11:46 PM
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Nephthys
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Why not go try?


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Old Post Dec 8th, 2017 12:12 AM
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Surtur
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nephthys
Why not go try?


And if I did, and they said no, you'd insist they do it, correctamundo?


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Old Post Dec 8th, 2017 12:13 AM
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Nephthys
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No, I'd probably consider that a form of harrasment with suitable grounds for refusal.


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Old Post Dec 8th, 2017 12:16 AM
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Surtur
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nephthys
No, I'd probably consider that a form of harrasment with suitable grounds for refusal.


And then no cake for this situation then. Dems da breaks.


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Old Post Dec 8th, 2017 12:17 AM
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Surtur
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"Jesus is better than Muhammad". If they refuse, force them?

"Muhammad married a child". This is fact. Refusal allowed?


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Old Post Dec 8th, 2017 12:20 AM
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dadudemon
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
the relationship between sexuality and religion is merely a social construct and hence irrelevant.


Guys, Rocky has spoken! All those dead and beaten gays, past, present, and future! Who cares about them! Because Rocky says so: the mere social constructs that result in our brothers and sisters being persecuted, beaten, and killed are irrelevant.

Whew, glad Rocky settled that for us.

MAGA, amiright, Rocky?


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Last edited by dadudemon on Dec 8th, 2017 at 02:12 AM

Old Post Dec 8th, 2017 02:10 AM
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Rockydonovang
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by dadudemon
Guys, Rocky has spoken! All those dead and beaten gays, past, present, and future! Who cares about them! Because Rocky says so: the mere social constructs that result in our brothers and sisters being persecuted, beaten, and killed are irrelevant.

How do people subscribing to a hateful ideaology make being gay an act of hate on religion?

It's nonsensical you expect us to feel a dude's religious rights are being impeached on because of his religion's hateful past.

Gay people did not attack christanity, chritianity attacked gay people. Any relationship between religion and gays has been the result of religious people constructing one

Old Post Dec 8th, 2017 03:34 AM
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Rockydonovang
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Depends on the type of equality.

If you're talking about equality under the law, then yes absolutely that shouldn't be infringed upon, but equality under the law isn't a form of equality that forces a concession on liberty, rather it is conducive to liberty, and they are not principles in opposition to each other here.Equality of access to private services is much more sketchy, less compelling a case on principle, and less fundamental a principle than either equality under the law or freedom of speech, so if equality of access to other people's private services is weighed against freedom of speech, freedom of speech is absolutely more important because to censor or compel someone's speech with force is absolutely a violation of their natural rights, and a private business discriminating... not so much. A person has much more entitlement to their own words than a person does to somebody else's labor.


Fair enough. So would you agree that if discrimination involved basic human needs like say housing or water, it wouldn't be ok?
And lastly if you're
quote: (post)
Originally posted by Emperordmb

talking about equality of outcome... equality of outcome is flat out immoral and is the principle behind Marxism. If you were to way freedom and equality in economics, they are most certainly not equal principles. If you have a completely unregulated economy, total economic freedom, you might think that's not desirable, you might think it abandons too many people, but it would certainly be a favorable system to the complete opposite end of the spectrum in a communist state for example, whereas the extreme of economic liberty may leave a minority of people miserable, the extreme of economic equality makes everyone equal in how miserable they are.

I'm not going to go into depth about this since I lack sufficient knowledge about Marxism, but are there historical examples of a totally free market economy you're comparing to a totally equalized one? I can grantee you America is not an example of a fully capitalist economy.

And from what I recall from sophomore history, full blown free market economies resulted in mass child labor, mass starvation, and mass famine. And even those countries weren't completely free market.

Last edited by Rockydonovang on Dec 8th, 2017 at 03:45 AM

Old Post Dec 8th, 2017 03:42 AM
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