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Analysis of Trump''s Tax Plan
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SquallX
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nephthys
A person who see's more value in a rich mans right to hoard his treasure than to use it to help the needy and helpless is a huge chode, yes.

And you dare to call yourself a Christian.


You’re ****ing funny! No one has the right to force someone else to give away their riches to the less serving, unless they chooses too.

Doesn’t matter if that person worked, or earned said riches from family.

Old Post Dec 19th, 2017 06:11 PM
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Emperordmb
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It's like, people wanna acknowledge the government as some wish granting fairy instead of an instrument of force and ignore the fact that it doesn't just magically generate whatever outcome they want with no cost to people's liberty or property.


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Old Post Dec 19th, 2017 06:19 PM
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ILS
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nephthys
A person who see's more value in a rich mans right to hoard his treasure than to use it to help the needy and helpless is a huge chode, yes.
Spoken like a true parasite.


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Old Post Dec 19th, 2017 07:41 PM
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Nephthys
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Emperordmb
I think rich people absolutely should use their wealth to help poor people. I do believe inaction when you have the power to help people is immoral. Take someone like Bill Gates for example who does philanthropy work, I think that's what rich people should do. I just don't believe it's moral to use force to compel wealth redistribution, nor under the purview of what government should be from a Lockean perspective.

There's a difference between thinking that rich people shouldn't help poor people, and thinking the government shouldn't force rich people to help poor people. In that religious group on campus I mentioned I've actually volunteered to help drive around town and give homeless people food and clothes.

I think hateful speech is immoral too, but I find the notion that the government should use force to enforce that moral standard to be disgusting and an overreach of government power. Just because I believe someone should have the freedom to make a choice doesn't mean I think whatever they do with that choice is a good thing. I also morally disapprove of casual sex, but I absolutely am revolted at the government legislating that standard. I also think people have a moral obligation to be honest human beings, but that doesn't mean the government should criminalize lying.

The government doesn't exist to compel all forms of moral behavior, it exists to protect people's rights.

Also BTW it's by this exact line of reasoning that some people I know who morally disapprove of "gayism" (to use the LeGenD terminology) term still think gay sex and gay marriage should be legal. I'm not one of those people since I don't have a problem with gayism.


Oh cry me a ****ing river. Your problem is that you have a serious misplaced sense of priorities. You're worried about people having to pay slightly more taxes more than you are about the people actually suffering and dying. Rich people and corporations having to pay taxes isn't some grand injustice. They'll live and thrive and they'll do so a lot better than any of us will. People dying from preventable illness or injury or suffering from extreme debt or poverty are real problems, not your whingefest about "the use of force."

Which I'm sure makes you feel like you're a super great guy. Meanwhile you won't lift a finger to solve the actual issues that lead those people to those streets in the first place and instead actively argue for less of a safety net for them and more weight to the boot holding them down.

I wasn't making a point about the government enforcing morals, I was merely commenting on your own despicable sense of morality.

No, government exists to create and support a society for the benefit of the people living in it. A state that fails to support its citizenry indicates a flawed system. A system of rights only exists for the benefit and protection of the people in the first place. If a few of the most privileged of those people and powerful corporations have to be minorly inconvenienced to relieve the great suffering of a great many people then so be it. Thats how a government is supposed to function. A government that protects the comfort of a few at the expense of the pain of the many scarcely deserves to exist.

Also Locke was a ponse.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by SquallX
You’re ****ing funny! No one has the right to force someone else to give away their riches to the less serving, unless they chooses too.

Doesn’t matter if that person worked, or earned said riches from family.


Everyone pays taxes you twit. You do it too. Or you will when your balls are finished dropping. The problem is when people have too much while other have too little. Theres nothing immoral about people who have more having to contribute more for the good of society.


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Last edited by Nephthys on Dec 19th, 2017 at 07:58 PM

Old Post Dec 19th, 2017 07:54 PM
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Nephthys
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Ignore. I thought my edit didn't go through.


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Old Post Dec 19th, 2017 08:01 PM
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ILS
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quote:
You're worried about people having to pay slightly more taxes more than you are about the people actually suffering and dying. Rich people and corporations having to pay taxes isn't some grand injustice. They'll live and thrive and they'll do so a lot better than any of us will.
Newsflash: people with relevant skills/qualifications that can find well-paid jobs which are in demand, or start up a successful business, tend to have more money than people who don't understand basic finances. Thus, they will have a higher quality life. That model in of itself works and is fair, as it encourages people to improve themselves and contribute to the economy.

Trying to reduce the quality of life of someone who can look after themselves in order to prop up the needy or, more likely, the lazy, doesn't work.

What may work is if you stop insisting on taxing the shit out of people, letting the government waste the money on lesbian dance theory degrees, and instead just teach people how to make a living without relying on welfare. People should be responsible for themselves unless they are legitimately retarded or a child.
quote:
People dying from preventable illness or injury or suffering from extreme debt or poverty are real problems, not your whingefest about "the use of force.
Maybe not piss all your money away on garbage, not have children you can't look after and get a job. That usually helps.


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Old Post Dec 19th, 2017 08:07 PM
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SquallX
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You ****ing idiot! The 1% already pays far more taxes than anyone in this country.

Also, forcing them to give away their riches is ****ing immoral you nitwit.

Old Post Dec 19th, 2017 08:10 PM
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Robtard
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Self-pulling-bootstraps, oh my!


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Old Post Dec 19th, 2017 08:11 PM
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dadudemon
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nephthys
A person who see's more value in a rich mans right to hoard his treasure than to use it to help the needy and helpless is a huge chode, yes.

And you dare to call yourself a Christian.


No, there's a difference between forcing someone, at the threat of violence, to do charity and people willingly doing charity. People who try to violently force others to do charity are assholes. The Chodiest of Chodes.


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Old Post Dec 19th, 2017 08:50 PM
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Nephthys
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Again, I'm not saying anything about forcing people to do charity. Just to pay taxes and for the government to use taxpayer money to help the needy with healthcare and social security programs. And only morons think taxes are a form of violence.


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Old Post Dec 19th, 2017 08:55 PM
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Surtur
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Lol let us be clear: it's not charity if it's forced.


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Old Post Dec 19th, 2017 08:58 PM
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dadudemon
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nephthys
Again, I'm not saying anything about forcing people to do charity. Just to pay taxes and for the government to use taxpayer money to help the needy with healthcare and social security programs. And only morons think taxes are a form of violence.


I've posted links to this already: don't pay your taxes, you go to jail and/or prison. If you believe you're in the right, and you resist being put in jail, violence happens.

Only an idiot thinks that you can get away with paying your taxes without incurring violence from the government.

Check it out: it's against my religious beliefs to be forced to do charity. no expression


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Old Post Dec 19th, 2017 09:06 PM
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Nephthys
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by dadudemon
I've posted links to this already: don't pay your taxes, you go to jail and/or prison. If you believe you're in the right, and you resist being put in jail, violence happens.

Only an idiot thinks that you can get away with paying your taxes without incurring violence from the government.

Check it out: it's against my religious beliefs to be forced to do charity. no expression


If you resist in that case you are the one instigating the violence. The tax itself isn't a form of violence, theres merely the possibility if you try punching a bailiff. That possibility exists in almost every aspect of life. Living in society requires you to follow rules. Don't like it, go live on an island.

Taxes aren't charity, dumbass.


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Last edited by Nephthys on Dec 19th, 2017 at 09:20 PM

Old Post Dec 19th, 2017 09:17 PM
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snowdragon
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nephthys
If you resist in that case you are the one instigating the violence. The tax itself isn't a form of violence, theres merely the possibility if you try punching a bailiff. That possibility exists in almost every aspect of life. Living in society requires you to follow rules. Don't like it, go live on an island.

Taxes aren't charity, dumbass.


Taxes are absolutely the Govts use of authority over you to TAKE your money for the "common good." It is force, all taxes are a use of force to take money from its citizens.

Apparently it passed the House and is being sent to the Senate.

Old Post Dec 19th, 2017 09:28 PM
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ILS
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quote:
If you resist in that case you are the one instigating the violence. The tax itself isn't a form of violence, theres merely the possibility if you try punching a bailiff. That possibility exists in almost every aspect of life. Living in society requires you to follow rules.
Resisting your assets being seized by force = instigating violence? That's retarded. If you don't agree to being taxed, but the government still want a slice of your pie, they will still take it. I'll leave you to work out the word we use for that.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nephthys
Don't like it, go live on an island.

Taxes aren't charity, dumbass.
You must be retarded if you think it's possible to relocate to an island without being forced to pay taxes somewhere down the line.

Taxes aren't charity, they're taking money from people who are self-sufficient and giving it to people who aren't, by force, unless you want to be ostracised from society.

If I start my own business, sell a product to a customer, and they give me something of a value, e.g money, that should be my money. The government, using it's monopoly on lawful use of violence, forces me to cut them in, even though they had nothing to do with the transaction. That's essentially theft.

Whether you agree with this theft or not is another debate, but whether or not it's theft at all is without question.


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Last edited by ILS on Dec 19th, 2017 at 11:09 PM

Old Post Dec 19th, 2017 11:06 PM
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Surtur
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I bet Fantasy Island is an island you could get to without being forced to pay taxes. Assuming your fantasy was to live on an island where you aren't forced to pay taxes.


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Old Post Dec 19th, 2017 11:09 PM
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dadudemon
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nephthys
If you resist in that case you are the one instigating the violence. The tax itself isn't a form of violence, theres merely the possibility if you try punching a bailiff. That possibility exists in almost every aspect of life. Living in society requires you to follow rules. Don't like it, go live on an island.

Taxes aren't charity, dumbass.


So if a person disagrees with the taxes on moral, ethical, or religious grounds, they are not allowed to refuse. They get put in jail or prison. AKA, violence.

Thanks for agreeing with me. Wasn't this a fun game where I talk you into agreeing with me when you originally disagreed?

You're right, taxes are forced charity for those who do no wish to pay taxes for charity. You may not like it but there are people who exist out there who have different political beliefs from you. Some people are...wait for it...libertarians. Some people are very liberal and believe in personal freedoms and rights quite a bit.


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Old Post Dec 19th, 2017 11:32 PM
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Emperordmb
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nephthys
Oh cry me a ****ing river. Your problem is that you have a serious misplaced sense of priorities.

What being concerned about people's rights from infringement instead of trying to force everyone to conform to the behavior I'd like to see is a misplaced sense of priorities.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nephthys
You're worried about people having to pay slightly more taxes more than you are about the people actually suffering and dying. Rich people and corporations having to pay taxes isn't some grand injustice.

I mean I don't disagree that they should pay taxes just as anyone else pays taxes... so no. As it currently stands though they're paying almost all of the income taxes the government takes in. I have no problem with taxes being proportionate to the amount of property one has, but you're not advocating for proportionality here.

Oh just because they're rich **** them? We should take away their property at a disproportionate rate to their earnings because we think we deserve it more than they do?

Also have you ever heard of capital flight? The US having a lower corporate tax rate makes the US economy more inviting to businesses which is an economic boon.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nephthys
They'll live and thrive and they'll do so a lot better than any of us will. People dying from preventable illness or injury or suffering from extreme debt or poverty are real problems, not your whingefest about "the use of force."

Yeah they are real problems, which is why I'm a proponent of voluntary charity work rather than the ineffectual government systems that are coercive via threat of force and inherently require involuntary infringements on people's property.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nephthys
Which I'm sure makes you feel like you're a super great guy. Meanwhile you won't lift a finger to solve the actual issues that lead those people to those streets in the first place and instead actively argue for less of a safety net for them and more weight to the boot holding them down.

Neph I already told you I participate in and advocate for charity work.

Also what a retarded metaphor you've used. My refusal to redistribute wealth does not equate to me oppressing poor people. Me oppressing poor people would require me to actively be infringing on their rights, which is not something I'm doing by not supporting wealth redistribution.

As far as "solving the actual issues" goes the war on poverty and increasing welfare spending in the US has done **** all to actually reduce the poverty rate.

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And also the US is continually sinking further and further into debt with entitlement programs accounting for over half of our government spending.

So no from an ethical point of principle that actually gives a shit about people's rights, it doesn't work. From the practical goal of "lifting a finger to solve these issues" it doesn't work. From a consideration of whether we can actually afford these government programs or whether it's just gonna sink us further into a debt that's gonna come around and bite us in the ass someday, it doesn't work.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nephthys
I wasn't making a point about the government enforcing morals, I was merely commenting on your own despicable sense of morality.

Go on, keep telling me I'm despicable for not wanting to infringe on people's rights, and how I'm despicable for not supporting programs that are plunging my nation further and further into debt at an increasing rate without actually doing jack shit to reduce poverty.

Also it's nice to know that you're so intolerant of disagreement that you think anyone whose not economically left wing is a deplorable, I can only imagine the kinds of productive discussions you'll have with people on the other side. Are you going to call them racists and sexists too while you're at it?

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nephthys
No, government exists to create and support a society for the benefit of the people living in it. A state that fails to support its citizenry indicates a flawed system. A system of rights only exists for the benefit and protection of the people in the first place.

The primary role of the state is to protect your rights because without your life liberty and property you have nothing. A system of government built on negative rights, on protection, has a clearly defined and objective framework that protects each individual and can ensure justice on an individual level. A system of government built on the notion of positive rights can justify any abuse of the individual so long as it is deemed to serve the greater good, which is exactly the kinda bullshit thinking that lead to some of the greatest atrocities in human history.

I am a Liberal, not a Marxist, I fundamentally object to your view of government.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nephthys
If a few of the most privileged of those people and powerful corporations have to be minorly inconvenienced to relieve the great suffering of a great many people then so be it. Thats how a government is supposed to function.


You call a 40% tax rate on the highest income bracket a "minor inconvenience"? Damn your head must really be lodged far up your own ass to think that.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nephthys
A government that protects the comfort of a few at the expense of the pain of the many scarcely deserves to exist.

What euphemistic language. It's not the fault of rich people being successful that poor people are poor, it is the fault of wealth redistribution programs that people's property rights are infringed upon for something they'll see no return on.

The government that protects everyone's rights instead of delineating between them based on class or identity group is the one that deserves to exist.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nephthys
Also Locke was a ponse.

Because he was an individualist and not a collectivist?


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Shadilay my brothers and sisters. With any luck we will throw off the shackles of normie oppression. We have nothing to lose but our chains! Praise Kek!
THE MOTTO IS "IN KEK WE TRUST"

Old Post Dec 20th, 2017 12:00 AM
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TheMuser
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All I can say is.....brutal....

Old Post Dec 20th, 2017 12:13 AM
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lazybones
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Emperordmb


As far as "solving the actual issues" goes the war on poverty and increasing welfare spending in the US has done **** all to actually reduce the poverty rate.

(please log in to view the image)

Misleading graphic. The Federal Poverty Rate is calculated using pre-tax income, and excludes vital benefits such as the Earned Income Tax Credit, Food Stamps, Housing Assistance and Medicaid. The Center on Budget and Policy Prorities estimates that about 10 million are lifted out of poverty thanks to the EITC alone, and about 5 million children as well.


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https://www.vox.com/2015/9/16/93370...poverty-measure

Strong welfare states are both essential and desirable, and not just for moral reasons. And such welfare states require progressive taxation because charity just won't cut it.

Last edited by lazybones on Dec 20th, 2017 at 12:55 AM

Old Post Dec 20th, 2017 12:45 AM
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