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Home » Star Wars » Star Wars: Literature & Expanded Universe » Can Sidious one-shot Revan?


Can Sidious one-shot Revan?
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Yes, definitely 13 36.11%
Maybe 5 13.89%
Rather not 18 50.00%
Total: 36 votes 100%
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Can Sidious one-shot Revan?
Started by: Stigma

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darthbane77
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Registered: Aug 2016
Location: Pennsylvania, United States


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Ursumeles
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/...postid=16227847

Dude, you do understand what circular logic is right?

Pretty sure that Az (arguably) debunked Ziost in his essay. Also, Valkorion =/= Novel Vitiate.

She struggled with her and a fugging droid lol. Not that it matters, as feats are inconcistent.

Give me a feat from Kun that's better.


Author opinion doesn't overrule the actual source. The text says it was the engineers that buried the ship, not Sidious, and no mention is made of TK. So no, it hasn't been debunked.

Yes?

I don't agree that he did. Also, I know, Valkorion>Novel Vitiate, though the difference may or may not be that significant. Valkorion~SWTOR Vitiate though.

Inconsistent or not, they're more relevant, due to the fact that they are the direct demonstrations of power from the characters.

Creating Force Screams that can be felt across the Galaxy.

Exar Kun let out a tremendous shriek that echoed across the galaxy, calling in despair upon Master Vodo, whom he had abandoned.

- The New Essential Chronology

Nadd offered Kun a way to live, and to repair his broken body: if he embraced the dark side, he would be healed. The betrayal of light was not an easy one for Kun, but the desire to live was stronger. He accepted the dark side, his screams reaching out across the galaxy and creating ripples in the Force

- The Essential Guide to Characters

Among others, such as casually taking the minds of thousands of Senators and an undisclosed number of Jedi, as well as being >>Luke despite being a severely weakened Spirit. I'd like to see a quote or scan for Poof's feat you mentioned though. I have a feeling there's something you're not telling me.

Old Post Jan 8th, 2018 07:49 PM
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darthbane77
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
That means Sidious mind-fogging the entire planet is also debunked. There are many rettarded fans who think he mind-wiped an entire planet. laughing out loud
thumb up

Old Post Jan 8th, 2018 07:50 PM
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darthbane77
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Why you split them apart?
Because of what I believe to be an apparent growth in power from novel to SoR. Plus, they're different enough to be considered separate incarnations.

Old Post Jan 8th, 2018 07:52 PM
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darthbane77
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
I wasn't being sarcastic. smile
thumb up

quote: (post)
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
As if there aren't inconsistent feats... roll eyes (sarcastic)
I'm not saying there aren't, only that they're still more reliable than accolades.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Well yeah, in actuality literally every debating circle other than the SW one puts a premium on feats over statements.

Just Saiyan. smile
thumb up

Old Post Jan 8th, 2018 07:54 PM
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Ursumeles
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shit, he can TP senators, hes >>> planetbusting. And being >> Luke was debunked tbh

As for Poof's feat - https://static.comicvine.com/upload...0/4607510-4.png
https://static.comicvine.com/upload...07516-shaa2.png

I'm possibly missing something, but for me it's just a simple outlier. Yarael isn't beating Dooku, Revan or so because of this feat.

Anyway, you still haven't given reasoning for accolades being invalid other than "no one treats them as valid", and posting a example of blatlant hyperbole to "debunk" it.

I'm done here.

I really hope I'm missing shit for Poof though, because the scaling would be ugly.


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Old Post Jan 8th, 2018 07:59 PM
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XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
The Immortal Emperor

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The Poof feat was debunked on hangouts iirc.


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Old Post Jan 8th, 2018 08:00 PM
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Freedon Nadd
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It just hit me. But did Palpatine use dark side rituals on Byss to subject them to his will, keeping them like zombies while slowly leeching off their vital force?

Because Kam Solusar said to Luke that he's been freed from Sidious' spell(on top of that; he's been also tortured) Maybe Sidious needs spells if he wants to bend Force-sensitives to his will or an entire planet? Just a thought occured to me.


__________________
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Ancient Power: "Nadd is a God, one among few. Revanchiste the indecipherable being the Lord Shiva of said pantheon. Though one must never forget He Who Shall Not Be Named."

Old Post Jan 8th, 2018 08:01 PM
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Ursumeles
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@Skillz Thank Sidious. And fugg u for never telling me. Superman > Goku.


__________________

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Old Post Jan 8th, 2018 08:01 PM
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Freedon Nadd
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by darthbane77
Because of what I believe to be an apparent growth in power from novel to SoR. Plus, they're different enough to be considered separate incarnations.


So you dislike the conception of midi-chlorians being the proof of your Force strength?


__________________
Azronger: "Nadd is not a Sheevite. He hates Sheev. Avoid him."

Ancient Power: "Nadd is a God, one among few. Revanchiste the indecipherable being the Lord Shiva of said pantheon. Though one must never forget He Who Shall Not Be Named."

Old Post Jan 8th, 2018 08:07 PM
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XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
The Immortal Emperor

Registered: Aug 2013
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Ursumeles
@Skillz Thank Sidious. And fugg u for never telling me. Superman > Goku.


It's treason, then. smile


__________________

”You presume limits to my power. There are none.”

Old Post Jan 8th, 2018 08:09 PM
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darthbane77
Senior Member

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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Ursumeles
shit, he can TP senators, hes >>> planetbusting. And being >> Luke was debunked tbh

As for Poof's feat - https://static.comicvine.com/upload...0/4607510-4.png
https://static.comicvine.com/upload...07516-shaa2.png

I'm possibly missing something, but for me it's just a simple outlier. Yarael isn't beating Dooku, Revan or so because of this feat.

Anyway, you still haven't given reasoning for accolades being invalid other than "no one treats them as valid", and posting a example of blatlant hyperbole to "debunk" it.

I'm done here.

I really hope I'm missing shit for Poof though, because the scaling would be ugly.


It's not that he TP'd the Senators, it's the ease with which he did it. As for Kun>>Luke, I don't see how it was debunked tbh, I agree it was proven to be less of a margin than it appeared, but spirit Kun is still superior to Luke at the time, regardless.

Eeeh, that doesn't say much. Those scans give very little context to the feat, and the wookiepedia page (which is regularly checked for accuracy as per a friend of mind who writes for them) doesn't seem to indicate that the feat was performed in the manner you're suggesting, there's context missing somewhere.

See, you're assuming I toss accolades out entirely, I don't. I only question the validity of an accolade when another character (such as Vitiate in comparison to Sidious) has several feats that are comparable to or superior to the character with the accolade in question. Feats only is a moronic approach, feats, close examination of accolades, and use of scaling all in conjunction are the most accurate method of ranking characters.

As I just said, accolades aren't "invalid". They just need to be treated with more skepticism than most feats do.

Okie-dokie, enjoyable convo, friend. smile

Old Post Jan 8th, 2018 08:10 PM
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darthbane77
Senior Member

Registered: Aug 2016
Location: Pennsylvania, United States


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
It just hit me. But did Palpatine use dark side rituals on Byss to subject them to his will, keeping them like zombies while slowly leeching off their vital force?

Because Kam Solusar said to Luke that he's been freed from Sidious' spell(on top of that; he's been also tortured) Maybe Sidious needs spells if he wants to bend Force-sensitives to his will or an entire planet? Just a thought occured to me.
A friend of mine debunked Sidious' Byss feat, lemme find the thread he did it in.

Old Post Jan 8th, 2018 08:11 PM
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Freedon Nadd
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Registered: Feb 2015
Location: Romania


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Ursumeles
shit, he can TP senators, hes >>> planetbusting. And being >> Luke was debunked tbh

As for Poof's feat - https://static.comicvine.com/upload...0/4607510-4.png
https://static.comicvine.com/upload...07516-shaa2.png

I'm possibly missing something, but for me it's just a simple outlier. Yarael isn't beating Dooku, Revan or so because of this feat.

Anyway, you still haven't given reasoning for accolades being invalid other than "no one treats them as valid", and posting a example of blatlant hyperbole to "debunk" it.

I'm done here.

I really hope I'm missing shit for Poof though, because the scaling would be ugly.


What he tries to say is that accolades are created at a specific time(and even if they are universal, history-wise, they limit themselves at the time when they were created; not created with the purpose of containing new stories), and have a unique context.

E.g: Shao Kahn is the strongest MK Character because he conquered Earthrealm with his magic and skills.
Onaga isn't declared the strongest MK character, but he can warp reality.

So, who is stronger? Kahn based on accolade, or Onaga based on feat?


__________________
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Ancient Power: "Nadd is a God, one among few. Revanchiste the indecipherable being the Lord Shiva of said pantheon. Though one must never forget He Who Shall Not Be Named."

Old Post Jan 8th, 2018 08:16 PM
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darthbane77
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He did this during a debate he had about Sidious and Nihilus, for context.

[[The fifth and final reason is that this of course means the feat takes no effort on Palpatine's part, and as such means it is not even close to his theoretical limit with the power. Nihilus on the other hand had to exert maximum effort on draining a much smaller amount of people, and even then there was a survivor, indicating that killing them all was beyond his ability.]]

Okay so this needs to be addressed first. BYSS WAS A STRONG NEXUS POINT BEFORE PALPATINE EVER SHOWED UP. The Rakata empire built it as a base of operations and built temples and other structures there. When Sidious eventually shows up he opts to allow such structures to remain while he orders the building of others. That's important to note because Rakata ships operated through Force empowered Hyperdrive systems, and they targeted worlds Rich in Force Energy to travel to and from.

Relevant sources:

Byss Nexus 1:
https://i.imgur.com/1527LpW.png
Byss Nexus 2:
https://i.imgur.com/XO6bZFL.png
Byss Nexus 3:
https://i.imgur.com/S2EFyZs.png
Byss Nexus 4:
https://i.imgur.com/KA7fcAp.png
Byss Nexus 5:
https://i.imgur.com/mV2qiYE.png
Byss Nesus 6 (Luke calls it the dark center of the universe:
https://i.imgur.com/dfchtxP.png
Rakata Nexus Planet Targeting:
https://i.imgur.com/ZS0nMs5.png
Rakata Owned Byss:
https://i.imgur.com/O6lzfu0.png

Special Extras, First Two Pages of Star Wars Evasive Action Recruitment. These two pages show that even during the *construction phase* of the planet when the site hadn't even been fully set up and optimized, it was greatly empowering Vader and Sids because of its Nexus state. It also shows that Vader who was not draining the workers on the planet, was able to easily and without effort draw upon the power the workers and nexus produced:

Pg 1.) https://i.imgur.com/uY5vmbD.jpg
Pg 2.) https://i.imgur.com/oXO1vaY.jpg
Pg 3.) https://i.imgur.com/kaNdReO.jpg

So it's true it takes little effort on Palpatine's part because the feat is empowered by the Nexus that is the planet itself. It's like saying you can push a tank down the road and it takes no effort, but oh, the tank is already turned on and in drive. Lol.
--------------
[[The third reason is that Sidious never got addicted to feeding off of others, whereas Nihilus became a slave to his hunger.]]

Eh, factually untrue.

https://i.imgur.com/gTOV5i4.png
---------
[[The range of his abilities covered the entire galaxy, and he was maintaining the feeding for almost three decades in a row. Take any comic, book or video game, or even the original movies, and he is at the back of his mind leeching on the helpless people of Byss as they endlessly fuel his power.]]

While his use of Force Storm light years away (iirc Byss is like 10k light years from Coruscant), his power is also being greatly enhanced by Byss. Technically both Nihilus and Sidious have the "Distant Power" Force Secret, which means their Peak reach (without being amped by anything) is "anywhere in the same Star System".

Distant Power: https://i.imgur.com/kH9fS98.png

Our Star System is 287.46 billion km in diameter so if we were to put Pluto on the furthest point away from the sun and then put a clone Pluto on the other side of the sun the same radius away, Nihilus and Sids would be able to use their power to effect anything in that range.

The difference is, Sids is being amped by Byss which dramatically increases his range, and Nihilus using his own power.

Honestly that's not as impressive since he's not doing it on his own power. Still impressive though.

On a side note, we don't ever get a reason for why Nihilus likes to roll up on planets to drain them but I suspect it has to do with his Wound Aura. Just as Malachor V has Wound Aura (or area around the planet where the Force doesn't travel), Nihilus also projects this aura. When it comes to people "becoming one with the Force" if they are hindered by something (like the Star Forge's Force Prisons), they will be stuck in limbo until their Force Energy is expended and they become nothing (KOTOR 1 Malak Fight with Description). If a person were to be draining these trapped souls, they would be able to get THE MOST they can get out of them without them dying and becoming one with the Force thereby retaining some Force Energy. So its not really a matter of range, its a matter of squeezing out every single drop possible.
----------
[[The next reason is that Palpatine employed other Force powers in conjunction with Force Drain. Nihilus simply devoured their life force, whereas Palpatine used complex telepathic powers alongside his draining ones.]]

ALSO through the huge machine that is Byss' nexus power. I mean you're acting like this is proof that he is powerful because he's using all these powers at once... when he's practically sitting on a nuclear reactor letting it flow through him.

There's also the fact that these were people who were ALREADY in a worshipful state of mind towards him, which makes it far easier to mentally dominate them. So I mean...

a.) They are already enthralled by him
b.) They are on a beautiful disarming paradise planet
c.) They are saturated in Dark Side energy that pushes them towards accepting his power.

The number is big yes, but the feat when closely examined... eh still not really him doing it on his own, but doing it through the nuclear reactor he's squatting on.

Additionally Nihilus didn't just drain their life force, he caused the flow of the Force to stop existing wherever he fed. The places he touched became wounds in the Force. Sure, draining people is cool and all, but when you give the Force itself a black eye and busted lip and tell it not to come around those areas again... well that's something different isn't it? Lol.
-----------
[[He did this to a far greater amounts of people than Nihilus did. In the end Byss housed almost 20 billion people, as opposed to the meager population of Katarr numbering only a few million at the time Nihilus consumed them.]]

In all actuality it would be easier to drain Byss in Sidious' position than it would be Nihilus draining Katarr. Reasoning?

Examine this description of the power being used:

https://i.imgur.com/gyTyYEy.png

As you can see I highlighted each thing that adds difficulty in yellow, orange, and red, and red for the bonus difficulty.

YELLOW = Easy for willing, worshipful subjects.

This is definitely the Byss residents. They were enthralled and worshipful of Sidious in their paradise kingdom.

ORANGE = Difficult for ambivalent or apathetic individuals.

These are people who just don't have an opinion. Now Byss was indeed a planet 19.7 strong, but 2% of that (394,000,000) were aliens who were tricked to go there, and then were trapped on the planet as slaves. Those guys definitely hated Sidious especially after seeing and knowing of so many other (this is why the Essential Atlas states MOST of Byss' population was in a dream-like state lol) non-humans butchered over the years (the Evasive Action Recruitment comic shows "one way trips" with alien possessions incinerated upon leaving). Still, even if 394,000,000 Million were at least apathetic to Sidious, 19,306,000,000 worshiped and adored him, cancelling them out.

RED = Heroic for ENEMIES, +10 For each individual imbued with the light side of the Force.

Sidious was beloved by the people of Byss, and carefully selected through applicants who were not force sensitive at all.

This is definitely NOT the case with the Katarr residents. Katarr had millions of Force Sensitive Miraluka who HABITUALLY joined the ranks of the Jedi Knights. There was a conclave on Katarr where nearly a hundred senior Jedi were present. The Miraluka were light side oriented.

So in regard to which of the two is a more difficult feat, Nihilus is literally performing his feat through THE MOST DIFFICULT of circumstances, and he does so with casual ease.
------------

Old Post Jan 8th, 2018 08:16 PM
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darthbane77
Senior Member

Registered: Aug 2016
Location: Pennsylvania, United States


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
What he tries to say is that accolades are created at a specific time(and even if they are universal, history-wise, they limit themselves at the time when they were created; not created with the purpose of containing new stories), and have a unique context.

E.g: Shao Kahn is the strongest MK Character because he conquered Earthrealm with his magic and skills.
Onaga isn't declared the strongest MK character, but he can warp reality.

So, who is stronger? Kahn based on accolade, or Onaga based on feat?
Apt comparison. thumb up

Old Post Jan 8th, 2018 08:17 PM
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Ursumeles
Traitor

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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
What he tries to say is that accolades are created at a specific time(and even if they are universal, history-wise, they limit themselves at the time when they were created; not created with the purpose of containing new stories), and have a unique context.

E.g: Shao Kahn is the strongest MK Character because he conquered Earthrealm with his magic and skills.
Onaga isn't declared the strongest MK character, but he can warp reality.

So, who is stronger? Kahn based on accolade, or Onaga based on feat?
And the context of Sidious being the MVP is Sidious being the MVP erm

I don't know what to do with your example, because I don't know the rules of the Universe, the canon of the Universe and what the context of these feats and accolades erm


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Old Post Jan 8th, 2018 08:22 PM
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Freedon Nadd
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by darthbane77
He did this during a debate he had about Sidious and Nihilus, for context.

Okay so this needs to be addressed first.<...) BYSS WAS A STRONG NEXUS POINT BEFORE PALPATINE EVER SHOWED UP. The Rakata empire built it as a base of operations and built temples and other structures there. When Sidious eventually shows up he opts to allow such structures to remain while he orders the building of others. That's important to note because Rakata ships operated through Force empowered Hyperdrive systems, and they targeted worlds Rich in Force Energy to travel to and from(...).


Hey, I was about to make a similar thread.

IIRC, there was a white&black comic book featuring Vader and Sidious on Byss; and there was a panel where Palpatine said something similar of:

"They give me their life-energy to me. They feed me."
-Sidious

This could support the argument that the Byss people were willingly giving their life-energy to Sidious and his adepts. It was also mentioned that he(and his adepts too?) kept them in a blissful state using spells or experiments in the Dark Empire comic books.

I think Palpatine did with the Byss people the same thing Obi-Wan did with Luke when Obi-Wan allowed Luke to let his Force signature flow through him by creating a temporary Force bond(but Sidious and his Adepts did it violently and vicious)


__________________
Azronger: "Nadd is not a Sheevite. He hates Sheev. Avoid him."

Ancient Power: "Nadd is a God, one among few. Revanchiste the indecipherable being the Lord Shiva of said pantheon. Though one must never forget He Who Shall Not Be Named."

Old Post Jan 8th, 2018 08:56 PM
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quanchi112
Greatest film ever

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quote: (post)
Originally posted by darthbane77
Apt comparison. thumb up
It is pretty reasonable but the cucks known as the Sheevaginas will try to bend reality to their desires Trumpian style.


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Old Post Jan 8th, 2018 09:00 PM
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darthbane77
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Registered: Aug 2016
Location: Pennsylvania, United States


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Hey, I was about to make a similar thread.

IIRC, there was a white&black comic book featuring Vader and Sidious on Byss; and there was a panel where Palpatine said something similar of:

"They give me their life-energy to me. They feed me."
-Sidious

This could support the argument that the Byss people were willingly giving their life-energy to Sidious and his adepts. It was also mentioned that he(and his adepts too?) kept them in a blissful state using spells or experiments in the Dark Empire comic books.

I think Palpatine did with the Byss people the same thing Obi-Wan did with Luke when Obi-Wan allowed Luke to let his Force signature flow through him by creating a temporary Force bond(but Sidious and his Adepts did it violently and vicious)
Yeah, I know what you're talking about. I have the scan, but it's too big to attach to a comment.

Old Post Jan 8th, 2018 09:14 PM
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Freedon Nadd
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Ursumeles
And the context of Sidious being the MVP is Sidious being the MVP erm

I don't know what to do with your example, because I don't know the rules of the Universe, the canon of the Universe and what the context of these feats and accolades erm


1. I don't know what MvP means.
2. It's not even that hard. Accolades are created at the moment a story is written on the paper where the writer creates some characters within the time frame of their story and does not deviate from it; and if they do, they still make sure it is compressed in their time frame(likely when they want to continue a story). Accolades serve as an important plot device to distinguish the main character from the other characters, to make it more/or "special" Hence, you have Lucas saying that Anakin is the most powerful Jedi(hence: the midi-chlorian count story element). Yet, we have enough material about him in Legends; and he isn't up to the accolades, because Legends doesn't focus on Anakin's background. Yes, Luceno is a big Anakin fan(or Lucas canon fan, better said) In his works, there are always some references to Lucas' canon, but mainly he does it out of respect for Lucas' masterpiece. This can be seen at best in the Darth Plagueis novel at the prologue of the story or when Plagueis meets Sidious and we see his thoughts about him; yet Luceno still does it by using character perspective. Luceno, on the other hand, hates the TOR writers, mainly Drew, because of creating Vitiate. That's why he wrote in the Darth Plagueis novel that Vitiate was dead for good.


On the other hand, Drew Karpyshyn and BioWare totally hate Lucas' canon and his characters.

Even Timothy Zahn hated Lucas for allowing Veitch to bring back Palpatine as the Emperor Reborn. Jade says something along the lines in a book, post-DE Palpatine:

"I loved to believe that wasn't Palpatine, just someone who pretended to be him."

Heck, even Veitch hates Lucas now for making DE Palpatine. You even see his Facebook comments changing his perspective about Sidious.

Only Drew is a chicken. He hates Lucas' canon, but he is afraid of admitting Vitiate's superiority over Sidious. That was his response to a TOR fan. So, he'd rather dissect Lucas' canon behind his back than facing him.


__________________
Azronger: "Nadd is not a Sheevite. He hates Sheev. Avoid him."

Ancient Power: "Nadd is a God, one among few. Revanchiste the indecipherable being the Lord Shiva of said pantheon. Though one must never forget He Who Shall Not Be Named."

Last edited by Freedon Nadd on Jan 8th, 2018 at 09:27 PM

Old Post Jan 8th, 2018 09:18 PM
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