Registered: Aug 2014
Location: The balance of the Force
Still yet to prove how a thin sheet of mando iron forged glass is comparable to a multi-meter thick wall. Even if you do, you've yet to prove Kun was amped at all by Nadd's spirit. Then maybe we can compare Jedi Kun to an Opress who was nearing his prime.
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Within your furnace heart, you burn in your own flame. This is how it feels to be Anakin Skywalker.
Yes, Maul does talk to Satine in the book through her cell. In addition, Maul and Savage walk past the cells of other prisoners looking at them. Not that it would help your argument one way or another if the door wasn't made of glass, since the door is both made of Mandalorian Iron and destroyed by Savage either way, as per the text.
I'm sure Kun used whatever means he thought most effective in trying to raid Nadd's tomb, which meant his physical power in this case. Also, I like the idea that the cell is made of regular glass but Savage needed effort to destroy it. Pick one. I already agreed that Kun's wall was tougher to break, although clarified some things about the strength of the prison cell.
Why would the Mandalorians build a prison cell out of regular glass? That's absurd.
It sounds like you're a pedantic retard who is continually scrambling around and backtracking.
__________________ “The galaxy must experience the pain of death and the rapture of rebirth as I have. I will bring chaos. It is time for war.”
I doubt it's regular glass, but it's still likely a strong kind of glass and not beskar-in-disguise. Interviews with Filoni reveal Lucas' vision of Mandalore being entirely a glass city. Like always, Lucas prefers visuals to science. Why someone would want a city made of glass is beyond me, but that is what we have.
__________________ "There is only Revan. Only he can shape this galaxy as it is meant to be shaped."
Do you have the excerpt? Like I said Savage just rips the door off its hinges in the book, its not particularly notable as a feat in that version.
That's not the point, the point is that you're trying to compare Kun's physical strength to Savages TK, which is silly and doesn't work. And I never said it was regular glass, I just don't think its provably beskar. You're right that it would be idiotic if someone could just punch their way out of a cell, so its certainly stronger than regular glass. Maybe transparisteel. The fact remains though that it is still only thin glass and he only does it in the canon version, which you're adamant we can't use in debates with Legends Maul. Unless that rule is only for things that make him look bad I suppose.
Maul had problems with Palps. Here won't be any different.
__________________ RealistRacism: "Sheevites, much like the Banites, were meant to increase in power with each member. From Lightsnake to Gideon to Azronger, this was supposed to be the case. However, knowledge must've been lost in some kind of Gravid-like incident, as Az turned out to be a mid-tier debater with a sub-par track record, sh!itting all over Tempest's legacy. Sad."
Registered: Aug 2014
Location: The balance of the Force
Stalemating Ulic prior to developing a far deadlier lightsaber style, and being over-all physically better. People like to forget that after Kun blasted through a wall of beskar, Freedon Nadd's spirit physically rebuilt him to be stronger, and infused him with the dark side. All prior to Kun's power literally multiplying.
__________________
Within your furnace heart, you burn in your own flame. This is how it feels to be Anakin Skywalker.
This assumes that rumours are limited to being just exaggerations of events where powerful displays of the force are concerned. That is not true. For example, there are articles stating that the Lsunkya was buried with mechanical infrastructure overseen by engineers. Then there are texts claiming Palpatine did it himself, with his personal power. A realm in which wizards bend the laws of physics can inaugurate tons of supernatural possibilities. For instance, If the veracity of Sadows use of sith paraphernalia to cause supernova's is now "dubious" then perhaps he just triggered it with by waving his hands in a standard ship, after all the cosair was destroyed, it might have never had a force boosting function.
I find it funny that you think this is an advantage for Maul of all people. I'd say the domain where Kun's abiitlies can be endlessly speculated upon, is better than the reality where Maul runs from groups of muggles, gets jumped by dogs and has the bright future of carrying on "the sith tradition" wrenched from him when he gets cut in half by an inexperienced padawan.
You think there's a double standard. There isn't. To clarify, I will still discount the non-canon opinions of Witwer and Filoni. They are irrelevant to the events we see on screen, and are merely anecdotes that may or may not be true. Alluding to Gillard's tier system is just a way to categorise characters in a familiar manner for anyone reading. I do this not because they are facts, but because the methodology makes sense. For example Gillard - unlike Filoni - is much better at describing in universe phenomena, such as the dark side being like Force LSD - taking a user beyond their current level instantly, because we see this several times in the movies and in various instances outside of them. This applies to the tiers as well. Compare that to some of the gemstones Filoni has come up with, such as Maul getting three shotted by Ben representing his growth as a swordsman.
Yes, by all means post the entire comic. That way everyone can see that being the most powerful crime syndicate in the galaxy, doesn't necessarily mean you have the strongest millitary. The two are, very clearly, mutually exclusive. Firstly, the image I posted that gives the broadest level of context possible regarding the "armies" Maul is facing.
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Here we have around thirty unorganised idiots highly skilled killers running on, not claustrophobic, but somewhat confined cat-walks to confront Maul in the centre of the platform. They do this instead of waiting at outposts and shooting the target from strategic locations. Clever. Considering the setting, the first problem with this tactic is that the bodyguards can't surround him without being literally within a few meters radius of him - the size of the platform. And the shooters at the back have to contend with everybody directly in front of them. As we see later in the comic, this can be quite the issue :
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So not only will anyone at a reasonable distance here have a difficult time getting a clear hit, worse than that, they risk shooting a comrade. On the other hand, only those that have a direct view of Maul are literally within meters of his blade.
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And of course, the trained lightsaber wielding force sensitive cuts down the chaotically assembled muggles at close range. Now tell me why this would be a problem for any other trained jedi/sith with a name and a lightsaber? Furthermore, the idea that Maul flees against several long range shooters who maintain their distance from him, isn't contradicted, and of course the latter counts something that's true, while the former is just a possibility, as you rightly noted.
Yes... and he takes his sweet time doing it too by the looks of things. After he kills the body guards (7 more muggles who try and fight Maul at close range with unsuitable weapons) , he enters the room housing several unwitting crime lords, and of course, the man himself.
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Who closes the gate and leaves before Maul can kill everyone to reach him.
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Now you might ask what Exar Kun would do in this situation? For the answer, we have to go back to where a very pre-prime Ulic who, despite contending with several layers of atmospheric dark side power, blitzes these five (force empowered?) Naddist warriors - the two flashes represent the missing warriors - and he kills the fith cultist before gravity effects the third one's weapon.
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After that he kills warb null in two hits, despite the aforementioned hinderances. Now If Ulic was confronting the Black Sun, everyone in the room dies before Alexi commands the gate to be closed, including that random night sister Maul struggled with.
It's means that Kun is casually capable of using the alteration tree of powers on a much more massive scale than Maul is. Maul might not have sorcery, or stun, or lightning, or any other ability that you'd expect from "one of the most trained sith lords in history". But it doesn't matter, because his raw power has never manifested itself on such a magnitude, even in situations where it would have been useful. And if Kun is capable of casually incapacitating 100,000 targets at once, even if they have a low resistance to that sort of attack, it's reason to believe that his power directed at a single target would be particularly devastating. Do you remember the last time when Maul resisted having his force connection severed, only to get up and kill the person casting that power instantly? Add to the fact that the caster is someone who's survived through the conflicts of a thousand years and used the ability to defeat sith before him.
The text says that Qui Gon was generally regarded to be one of the most skilled swordsman in Jedi History. It's not an omniscient narrator making this claim. So who's doing the regarding? And what's their metric for cross referencing martial artists throughout time? Being one of the "greatest" or "one of the most skilled" in a Galaxy-wide 20,000 year old organisation is far a too undefined accolade when literally thousands can be mentioned in that capacity. So what's the basis Qui Gon's praise here? My guess, is that it's his piers making this claim. And they're doing it on the assumption that being amongst the noteworthy of any single era puts you in the "one of the best of all time" category. Furthermore, the accolade itself is subject to the authority of the people claiming it - Modern era Jedi. These are usually people who have never been in a serious life or death duel against a trained adversary, and make their assessments with little experience. Now, let me tell you why that experience is necessary :
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Apparently Jedi sparring sessions and blaster deflection practice doesn't give one the insight they need to build up a suitable duelling style. So while Jinn might be considered a masterful sword fighter to people in his time, he's proabably no better than your average Jedi master who's survived multiple conflicts in older times. In fact, there's a possibility he's even worse than that. He's just a guy who wasn't powerful enough to fully augment himself past old age and lacks key the key duelling components that make a complete fighter. If Vodo Bask was as incompetent as Jinn, he doesn't make it past the age of fifty.
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Yet he's survived for more than 500 years, many of those years spent in times where violent conflict was a way of life. And not only does he augment himself to a super human degree, he also imbues a wooden stick with the power to contend with a lightsaber. A weapon that slashes through shielded star ships.
And Anakin regarded Obi Wan being "as powerful as Master Windu and as wise as yoda." Just because Bondara's own apprentice thought of him in a similar manner, doesn't make it the case.
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Contradicting the notion that his skill was unequalled.
Obliterated? Really? Like how Ulic obliterated Warb Null in two hits? Or how Ben Kenobi and Kanan obliterated Maul in three?
Even at maximum effort he was finding it difficult to actually land a hit on Bondara.
The theory is based on the strong probability that's there's parity between eras. That the power levels of the respective leaders of the faction are interchangeable. Now I consider Yoda, Anakin and Mace Windu exceptions to this rule. Obi Wan and Jedi!Dooku, on the other hand? Nope. The kind of prodigious talent inate to them would have manifested across history hundreds, if not thousands of times. The mere fact that Dooku's potential occurred in the same era twice, once in himself and another time in Kenobi, almost garuntees it as a statistical likelihood. The fact that the sample size of Jedi in modern times has "dwindled" to a mere 10,000, strengthens the probability. So i look to the top dogs of any era to fill the void, and in this case Vodo Bask and Odan have also had hundreds of years to hone their connection to the force and train their skills. Odan in particular has had experience fighting sith in the Golden Age of them.
It's the most logical assumption when you take into consideration how all force powers work. The act of keeping someone completely petrified, yet still conscious- essentially force stun - has always been something that required maintained concentration. Jacen solo has unwittingly released petrified targets upon wavered concentration. When Malak stunned Revan, he could keep him there while taunting him, but the instant he engaged Bastilla in a duel, Revan was released. This paradigm seems to manifest itself in every use of the force. And yes, that includes spells :
It's pretty much a general principal of the Force, and not something that literally has to be mentioned on every occurrence. Do the muntur stones remain airborne after Yoda stops levitating them? Inversely, does gravity stop acting on the stones, once they've dropped to the ground? Against Bane on Thython, why does Worrer's battle meditation were off the instant he's been force pushed. Why do Naga Shadows system spanning illusions fade as soon as his concentration is broken? I can honestly go on forever. If you can find me any examples to the contrary, feel free. Because they'd be mere exceptions to the rule. While you're at it prove to me why Exar's feat should be counted as an exception.
With all that in mind, the feat stands firm. Exar stuns around 100,000 targets, and romps his former master without even a minor lapse in the energy and concentration needed to maintain the stasis field over such a large audience.
Not an exception :
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Again, not a contradiction, Force powers can and have been used across entire star systems. Leaving the battlefield is not certain evidence that the illusion is persisting without Lok's efforts. And as he stated before, he has to release her, meaning that he's consciously maintaining the mental prison affecting the target(s).
Then tell why on earth this dark side nexus would be helping Kun? Last i remembered, he was a Jedi, and one not who'd descended to darkness when he smashed the wall of Beskarr.
This is apparently wrong, the real equation includes Kun with a nexus hinderance + Plus Nadd's spirit. For all we know the two may just cancel each other out.
Concession accepted.
And how are we judging what constitutes a considerable amount of power ? Freedon Nadd may well have been helping him, but it's revealed later that he has to except the dark side fully before some sort of dark transformation can occur. And that did not happen during or before Exar smashed the wall.
Because Vodo's staff and the virboblade used by Mighella are incomparable. One is the result of Vodo's own power and the other is just a lightsaber resistant metal that uses ultra sonic vibrations to increase it's cutting efficacy. The blade mighella uses is honestly much more comparable to the wall of beskarr Kun smashes down. The only difference it that Mighella's blade less than a centimeter thick.
But it's not just the weight of Maul's own blows causing her wafer thin weapon to snap. You have to also consider that they're striking at each other. Force is being applied to the blade from both opponents, meaning you have to factor in the weight of her blows as well. It's simple physics. Two cars colliding with each other will create a much greater impact than one car hitting something stationary. Factor in how much thinner Mighella's weapon is compared to the Wall of mando iron, and that it certainly lasts a more panels before it get's destroyed, and we have yet another comparison where Kun smells of roses.
That's because when playing chess you don't move the pieces all at once. I started off the debate with a few direct comparisons where Exar performs in manner that would have been extremely useful to Maul, if he had the power or mastery to replicate. As far as something that can be empirically measured, Maul does not have a feat on the level of maintaining a stasis field over 100,000 targets while beating the top weapon master of an era brimming with them, and given his performance against Mighella's katana, he's probably not smashing thick walls of beskarr in a single panel either. You've failed utterly to present why those comparisons are invalid. And until you can properly refute them, they will be held over your head.
Perhaps they are far from the truth, Perhaps Exar shot the wall with a cannon, or perhaps he smashed it down with his bare fists. The speculation can honestly go either way.
The difference is that Jinn actually did employ those acrobatics once, and is literally stated to have tapered his fighting style because his of his own physical limitations, not because he found the use of acrobatics "unnecessary". This tells me that the line between his own physicality and his super human force augmentation is very thin.
Cool story bro.
Which should be compensated for considering his force connection, unless of course, his augmentative skills actually suck, because there's a fine line between his physicality and his force connection, as already theorised.
It cheapens him because one of his crowning battle feats is apparently beating a Jedi that struggles to augment himself past his late-middle aged physical status and uses a form not fit for serious duelling, while on a desert of all places.
Just one thing, Mighella's blade isn't a Vibroweapon, it's a Force imbued sword as shown with Nightsister magic surrounding the blade, Force imbue is pretty basic. The blade itself wouldn't be saber resistant.
Registered: Jun 2016
Location: The Throne of the Sheevites
Ant, this isn't hard to understand. The door is stated to be made of Mandalorian iron:
They lead Satine to a prison cell in her own palace, shutting her in a little room with a cot, desk, and chair, behind a door made of Mandalorian iron.
Darth Maul: Shadow Conspiracy
A door is an object through which one enters or exits a room, or as per Wikipedia, "A door is a moving mechanism used to block off and allow access to, an entrance to or within an enclosed space, such as a building, room or vehicle." A door looks something like this:
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To clarify, the brown rectangle is the door. The frames/supports surrounding the brown rectangle are not the door; they are not "a moving mechanism used to block off and allow access to" places. As I said, very simply. I hope you're keeping up.
Savage then breaks through the very-clearly-made-of-Mandalorian-iron-door with a telekinetic blast:
"Apprentice, I wish to tour this facility," he said.
A moment later, the door to their cell exploded outward, ripped away by a tremendous surge in the Force.
Darth Maul: Shadow Conspiracy
Which is, by all available evidence, better than Kun's feat as the latter required a lightsaber for it.
Not sure why we're still disputing the composition of what Oppress shattered. ILS posted a quote explicitly outlining what Oppress destroyed. The next quote states that mandalorian iron can be made into glass and that Mandalorians turn this iron into glass.
The glass was made out of mandalorian iron. Feel free to dispute how impressive that is, but denying what is explicitly stated is a lazy way of trying to avoid the argument.
Feb 9th, 2018 01:11 PM
