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Home » Star Wars » Star Wars: Literature & Expanded Universe » What was Sidious's end goal?


What was Sidious's end goal?
Started by: Kurk

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Freedon Nadd
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Galan007
^ That changes nothing I said.

Bane initially reinstated the Rule of Two primarily for the reasons I mentioned -- the novel was very specific in that regard. Whether or not you agree with his reasoning is irrelevant to the point at hand.


He agreed that Kaan's communism Sith will destroy them. And it is true from a certain point of view. But that doesn't mean he was 100% right to state that Two Should Be There>More Should Be There.
It took Bane some time to understand that no Sith wants to be replaced or lose their power in the front of another(hence why Kaan said all of the Sith Lords are equal and allowed infighting) Hence, Bane said: Sith crave power for power's sake.

He didn't understand Skere Kaan's doctrine, except when it was way too late.


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Old Post Feb 3rd, 2018 08:52 PM
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Galan007
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
He agreed that Kaan's communism Sith will destroy them. And it is true from a certain point of view. But that doesn't mean he was 100% right to state that Two Should Be There>More Should Be There.
It took Bane some time to understand that no Sith wants to be replaced or lose their power in the front of another(hence why Kaan said all of the Sith Lords are equal and allowed infighting) Hence, Bane said: Sith crave power for power's sake.

He didn't understand Skere Kaan's doctrine, except when it was way too late.
That said, Bane did want Zannah to eventually challenge/kill him. When he didn't think she would ever attempt do so, he sought out some of the other means you mentioned to try and retain power/control himself... Above all, Bane wanted the most powerful being to be the Master -- and if it wasn't going to be her, it had to be him.

As you said: power was his primary motivator(as it was for ALL Banite Sith.)


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Last edited by Galan007 on Feb 3rd, 2018 at 09:00 PM

Old Post Feb 3rd, 2018 08:56 PM
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Freedon Nadd
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Galan007
I didn't say otherwise. Both have inherent disadvantages.

However, the Rule of Two was more effective in that it ultimately allowed the Sith to reach [pen]ultimate galactic power/supremacy... Something the 'old rule' never quite matched.


It took decades. The Old Rule doesn't rely on that: even if it did conquer the galaxy in a faster rate: e.g: Krayt's Rule of One.

This is like arguing over apples and oranges.
Main point is that all these philosophies are flawed. But some people out here act like Rule of Two is without disadvantages.


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Freedon Nadd
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Also, Sidious was the last Banite Sith. But even he disregarded that philosophy after he killed Plagueis. I don't think this Grand Plan has anything to do with the Banite Sith because even Marka Ragnos' spirit mentions it to Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma on Cinnagar.


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Old Post Feb 3rd, 2018 08:59 PM
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Freedon Nadd
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Galan007
That said, Bane did want Zannah to eventually challenge/kill him. When he didn't think she would ever attempt do so, he sought out some of the other means you mentioned to try and retain power/control himself... Above all, Bane wanted the most powerful being to be the Master -- and if it wasn't going to be her, it had to be him.

As you said: power was his primary motivator(as it was for ALL Banite Sith.)


Nah, if that was really the reason for abandoning the Rule of Two. Then Bane would have cast Zannah aside and take another apprentice. Bane did it out of fear of losing his power(not because Zannah didn't want to kill him) to be honest.


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Old Post Feb 3rd, 2018 09:03 PM
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Galan007
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
It took decades.
It took thousands of years. Still happened, though... Never quite did with the old ways. That's all I'm saying.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
But some people out here act like Rule of Two is without disadvantages.
Oh, I don't agree with that at all. As mentioned: both methodologies have their inherent weaknesses/disadvantages... Though I personally do prefer the Rule of Two, but to each their own. /shrug

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Also, Sidious was the last Banite Sith. But even he disregarded that philosophy after he killed Plagueis. I don't think this Grand Plan has anything to do with the Banite Sith because even Marka Ragnos' spirit mentions it to Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma on Cinnagar.
I don't think Palpatine ever really thought Vader would try and overthrow him, until he was literally hurling down the reactor shaft in RotJ. Hence his line to Luke minutes before his death:
"You... Like your father... Are now MINE!"

Regardless, Palpatine's ultimate plan/goal was, essentially, controlling the entire universe himself. He certainly didn't *need* apprentices or w/e, but he still *wanted* them... The Banite ways were too ingrained for him to ever completely abandon them, I guess.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Nah, if that was really the reason for abandoning the Rule of Two. Then Bane would have cast Zannah aside and take another apprentice. Bane did it out of fear of losing his power(not because Zannah didn't want to kill him) to be honest.
Bane only wanted to stay in command IF Zannah was too weak to overthrow/kill him. The whole point behind learning things like Essence-Transfer and whatnot was in hopes of passing his knowledge onto a more powerful/deserving apprentice, because his current body was failing him. I don't think he ever fully abandoned the Rule of Two -- though the lines certainly became blurred toward the end.

However, his original goal was clear: he would teach Zannah everything he knew, when Zannah was ready she would challenge/kill Bane and take another apprentice for herself -- and if Zannah was too weak to kill him, she never deserved to be the Master in the first place... She just took a really long time to ever challenge him, which pissed Bane off because he thought he'd chosen an inept successor.


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Last edited by Galan007 on Feb 3rd, 2018 at 09:26 PM

Old Post Feb 3rd, 2018 09:19 PM
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Freedon Nadd
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It seems we agree on the whole thing. But judge the Rules differently. There is no point in arguing.
Also, isn't that Disney canon with Sidious wanting to become the Satanic God?


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Old Post Feb 3rd, 2018 11:21 PM
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NewGuy01
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Galan007
In the Bane novel it was stated that an abundance of Sith roaming around actually weakens the dark side as a whole, because it is spread too thin between users.


Pretty sure this was metaphorical, not literal.


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Galan007
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^ Bane sounded pretty literal here:

"Poison should not harm a Dark Lord," he told her. Then he admitted, "Yet it almost killed me." He paused, but she didn't say anything. "There are too many Sith Lords in the Brotherhood," he went on. "Too many who are weak in the dark side. Kaan doesn't understand this."

Right or wrong, Bane believed that an abundance of Sith spread the dark side too thin, subsequently weakening all of them... And he believed it enough that he was willing to obliterate all existing Sith to reinstate the Rule of Two. /shrug


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Old Post Feb 4th, 2018 01:36 AM
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Galan007
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Also, isn't that Disney canon with Sidious wanting to become the Satanic God?
I answered this question on the last page, but the excerpt I posted earlier is from the Tarkin novelization, so yeah, it's Disney canon(which is canon, canon):

"And [Palpatine] would not allow himself to be sidetracked from his goal of unlocking the secrets many Sith Masters before him had sought -- the means to harness the powers of the dark side to reshape reality itself; in effect, to fashion a universe of his own creation. Not mere immortality of the sort Plagueis had lusted after, but influence of the ultimate sort."

...So from a canonical POV, reshaping the entire universe in his own image WAS Palpatine's end-goal. Non-canon/Legends material is another matter entirely(depending which source you use, of course.)


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Last edited by Galan007 on Feb 4th, 2018 at 01:49 AM

Old Post Feb 4th, 2018 01:39 AM
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quanchi112
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Kurk
Your white-trash, uneducated identity is showing. Brains are nothing more than chemical reactions, and chemistry happens for a reason. Your skewed interpretations, for example, are due to chemical reactions occurring between receptors and effectors in your mind. It's okay, you can't control it. smile
You are weak there's no way around it. I'm sure we can blame that low self esteem and poor social skills on your lack of going outside.

laughing out loud


Your insecurity is on full display, cuck.


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Freedon Nadd
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Galan007
^ Bane sounded pretty literal here:

"Poison should not harm a Dark Lord," he told her. Then he admitted, "Yet it almost killed me." He paused, but she didn't say anything. "There are too many Sith Lords in the Brotherhood," he went on. "Too many who are weak in the dark side. Kaan doesn't understand this."

Right or wrong, Bane believed that an abundance of Sith spread the dark side too thin, subsequently weakening all of them... And he believed it enough that he was willing to obliterate all existing Sith to reinstate the Rule of Two. /shrug


But Kaan did understand this. Hence he used the 'equality' myth to hold them under his control. Also, were the Brotherhood Sith really weak in the Force? Maybe Bane was talking about their Sith indoctrination and determination rather than their raw potential.

"They are weak in the dark side."

That's why Bane mocked them as an off-shot parody of the Dark Jedi.
Anyway, just because Bane believed so, that doesn't mean he was 100% right.


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Old Post Feb 4th, 2018 04:49 PM
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Freedon Nadd
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Galan007
I answered this question on the last page, but the excerpt I posted earlier is from the Tarkin novelization, so yeah, it's Disney canon(which is canon, canon):

"And [Palpatine] would not allow himself to be sidetracked from his goal of unlocking the secrets many Sith Masters before him had sought -- the means to harness the powers of the dark side to reshape reality itself; in effect, to fashion a universe of his own creation. Not mere immortality of the sort Plagueis had lusted after, but influence of the ultimate sort."

...So from a canonical POV, reshaping the entire universe in his own image WAS Palpatine's end-goal. Non-canon/Legends material is another matter entirely(depending which source you use, of course.)


We don't know if OP meant about canon Sidious, tho. Also, EU Sidious, in my opinion, just wanted knowledge(power) because he was afraid of losing it. He wanted more because he wanted more to make sure he doesn't lose what he gains.


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Old Post Feb 4th, 2018 04:53 PM
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Kurk
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
We don't know if OP meant about canon Sidious, tho. Also, EU Sidious, in my opinion, just wanted knowledge(power) because he was afraid of losing it. He wanted more because he wanted more to make sure he doesn't lose what he gains.
Both EU and canon


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Old Post Feb 4th, 2018 04:54 PM
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Freedon Nadd
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Canon-his goal was to reshape reality itself like his Banite predecessors
Legends-his goal was to never stop amassing dark side knowledge because he wasn't sure if what he knows now is enough already

First case is about one obsessed with universal authority
Second case is about one constantly hungry for dark side knowledge


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Old Post Feb 4th, 2018 04:58 PM
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Galan007
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Both motives essentially revolve around Palpatine attaining the most dark side knowledge that he could.

#UnlimitedPower


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Old Post Feb 7th, 2018 03:33 PM
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Galan007
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Anyway, just because Bane believed so, that doesn't mean he was 100% right.
...Which is why I said: "Right or wrong, Bane believed..."


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Old Post Feb 7th, 2018 04:01 PM
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Freedon Nadd
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Yes, but you seem to imply that the RoT produces only the strongest Sith Lords.


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Old Post Feb 7th, 2018 05:57 PM
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Galan007
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I personally implied nothing of the sort. I told you what Bane's thoughts/motivations were on the matter. Nothing more; nothing less. thumb up


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Old Post Feb 9th, 2018 08:22 PM
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Freedon Nadd
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But you do believe, so.


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Old Post Feb 9th, 2018 09:03 PM
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