The official website says Sidious used the power of the dark side to cloud the force, meaning it was something he was actively doing and was directly controlling, not something happening involuntary. Yes, it's a far greater feat. All of Sidious's feats are far greater than Snoke's. Palpatine's overall importance to the SW saga is greater than Snoke's. Thematically it makes sense that Sidious is superior. Snoke also seems to think it takes a Vader level force user to defeat Luke based on the context of his dialogue in the movie, and according to Snoke, Vader was unable to defeat Luke due to a moment of weakness, his feelings toward Luke, pull to the light (TFA novelization). So it seems Snoke acknowledges Vader as his superior since he acknowledges that he himself lacks the power to defeat Luke (Visual Dictionary)
Yes, Snoke is powerful, but his best feat in terms of combat is ragdolling Rey around. And while Rey has greater potential than most, she is still a beginner and is barely learning how to tap into her power, hence her immense struggle in engaging with four regular human skilled guards. Rey even mused that keeping up with them was too much for her limited training. It should be no surprise that she is no match for a master force user. Hell, even Ventress can blitz through nightbrother warriors (if we take the words of Qui Gon and young Anakin seriously in regards to pod racing, regular humans are far inferior to most species in terms of physicality, especially reflex and speed; obviously much inferior to zabrak nightbrothers), and we see how easily Dooku can dispose of her, which is more impressive than Snoke slinging Rey around, especially since Ventress is a match for most jedi council members, whom are all master force users, something Rey isn't even close to at this point.
The novelization has a great deal of dialogue from Snoke's perspective, a lot of which is about Sidious and why he was obsessed with the unknown regions, and according to Snoke it was to seek out ancient knowledge. Not once did Snoke say "oh yeah, and I was reaching out to him." So, yeah, very unlikely that it was because Snoke was calling him there, unless Snoke went senile and just forgot.
Also, Jason Fry, who worked closely with Rian Johnson and the story board while writing the novel, not only said it would be unwise for Snoke to attract the attention of Darth Sidious, he also said Snoke knew of his existence because Sidious was the most powerful being in the galaxy. Of course you could argue that he was referring to political power, but then again the whole galaxy knew Palpatine had the most political power, but still had no clue of the existence of Darth Sidious. So it makes more sense that Fry would be referring to Darth Sidious's force power as the reigning Dark Lord of the Sith.
ALLLsoooo, Luke schooled the hell out of Rey in their stick fight.
__________________ "The power of the dark side is an illness no true Sith would wish to be cured of" -Darth Plagueis
Why do you think Knights no longer need training? Not as apprentices, but they can defenitely grow more powerful through teaching.
The jedi trials aren't about power, they're about how good of a jedi you are. And in canon, the trials consist of categories like teamwork, isolation, fear, anger, betrayal, focus, instinct, forgiveness, and protection, instead of "trial of the flesh" etc. Also, as far as toughness goes, Kylo did, at the end of the force awakens, prove that he can withstand tremendous strain and pain.
to be a jedi knight. He's the same power level, that's all I've ever claimed.
All this space you're taking up telling me how you gave evidence could be used to actually give me evidence (or repeat it, since I was too stupid to catch it the first time).
I have the projection feat as evidence. And you can't use "he lost twice" as evidence when I've already said I don't think those were fair fights. Or fights at all, really.
If you're referring to me saying that Luke tried to hide after he kicked Vader down the steps, then yeah, I admit he hid. AFTER owning Vader. He's still equally powerful.
I showed you that time he shook a star destroyer with a single force push, right? And that was long before RotJ.
So why bring them up?
I can't think of anyone off the top of my head. I don't think they did. But then that's not really relevant because perhaps they never faced anyone who was as ferocious as the Preatorians, and thus never had themselves under as much pressure as Kylo and Rey would have been under.
Then why do you keep replying to me?
Ditto, my friend. Ditto.
Fans across the board wanted Luke to be that powerful, so there's no chance that the creators would not follow through with that. And as I said, both Abrams and Johnson had plans to have Luke doing crazy feats which were later taken away, because 1. they didn't suit his defeated self for most of the film, and 2. because they didn't want the Force to be too powerful. Let me explain that second one. The reason Luke didn't pull Star Destroyers out of the sky wasn't because he was too weak, it was because the force itself can't achieve something that powerful. If it could have, Luke would have. He's clearly meant to be powerful.
Then there's the projection feat, and the star destroyer feat, and defeating Darth Vader, and the whole "going around the galaxy exploring and learning all there was to know about the force, so as to gain more knowledge than any jedi had for thousands of years" thing.
To Sidious 66, yes, as Galan said, all of that has been mentioned before. And I've said I'll wait till more information is out. Regardless, I agree with most of what you said. Besides the quote by Fry about Sidious being the most powerful, I firmly believe he was referring to political power. Which is the kind that makes you famous.
Huh? What do you mean we're still here? I'm arguing with DarthPlagueis12 about very different things, if you care to read the the argument.
If that was directed towards me, then yes, that's the stance I've been defending against DarthPlagueis12
The trials are about seeing if you’re ready to be a knight, again did he pass anything akin to the trials? If so what?
No, it’s not always about power, you yourself admitted that Anakin was denied the level of master because he was too arrogant, mace also thought he went too close to the dark side even though he was a great swordsman and equal to master Kenobi. Thus there’s more to being a knight and master then just power, the trials seem to test to see if a Jedi possesses such attributes. Again kylo faced nothing like that.
So you’re saying I gave you zero evidence lol. No one gave you evidence even though I’m not the only one who disagrees with you 😂😂
Fair in what way, I don’t recall duels having rules. If you want to be honest Luke had the unfair advantage, he attacked a young kid in his bed, he then fought his untrained student. I say Luke had the advantage and lost anyway. The projection was a weak feat n he died from it, very sad.
what has Luke EVER done that has made him equal in power to his father, if he owned Vader why hide lol.
Give me a reference
Do I need your permission on who I can bring up? Why’d you bring up how powerful Luke was suppose to be, it’s irrelevent.
So now you admit you’re just trolling, what a tool. Vader faced imperial knights and squads of rebels, dooku faced multiple clone troopers, three knight sisters, Ventress and savage oppress, he faced Obi wan n Anakin more then once
Cause I enjoy exposing you as a troll
Again what evidence have you presented?
Again, tell me how he’s as strong as Yoda, give me some feats? Vader fear don’t count, told you why, he shook a star destroyer, ok so? Yoda fought three Jedi masters and they couldn’t touch him, he fought off count dooku n overcame his force powers, he stalemated the most powerful dark sider ever in Sidious in force skill, he was a better swordsman then him.
You seem to be confused as to my claim. I'm not claiming that Kylo is a full fledged Jedi knight. I'm saying that he's just as powerful as one.
The end of TFA
I'm saying you've not given me any reason to believe (none that I can remember, anyway) that Luke's "fights" with Rey and Kylo were actual fights.
Oh, and in all the cases you brough up on this thread, you indeed are the only one who disagrees with me.
I mean that niether of the participants were truly trying to hurt or fight each other. In his argument with Kylo, the only external conflict was him holding up his lightsaber, and Kylo bringing the roof crashing down. The majority of the conflict in that scene was internal, and Luke being trumped was heavily circumstancial.
With Rey, Rey was not trying to hurt him, and he was not trying to hurt her. Neither had any reason to waste their energies fighting, and once again, the main conflict was internal, so an external solution wouldn't work. It would have to be resolved internally, by way of Luke either telling her what she wants to know, or convincing her that she doesn't want to know it.
Let's think of it this way: Rey, who I believe to be knight level and you believe to be, what youngling level? Would literally die if she tried to hold a ten second conversation with one person from half a galaxy away. Luke held a connection with hundreds of people for ten minutes from that same distance. And I'm pretty sure he could've lived if he'd wanted to, but why would he?
He said "I will not fight you father" and only hides after realizing that he's giving into the dark side.
(please log in to view the image) (please log in to view the image)
I'll admit, it is kind of irrelevant, but back then I was trying to argue that since Snoke is more powerful than Luke, he's more powerful than the emperor. But yeah, I don't quite stand by that anymore.
But I was just wondering why you brought up the Preatorian guards if they don't actually add anything to your argument.
1. You're putting words in my mouth, 2. but you still keep responding to me.
Yes, well, Vader and Dooku are far, far more powerful than jedi knights, who I claim Kylo and Rey are equal to. Ventress is a better example.
I'm glad I'm not being a nussiance.
I feel like a broken record, but, uh...shook a star destroyer, defeated darth vader, searched the galaxy and the unknown regions for jedi and other force-based teaching.
I don't know why shaking that star destroyer is so "okay, so?" for you, because Vader has never done anything close to that in canon. I guess we disagree that Luke fair and square beat Vader, but tell me why Vader wouldn't use the force to at least suspend/ragdoll Luke when about to be killed by him?
There's no direct quote, that's why I used the word "seems."
Every time Snoke brings up Kylo Ren's potential, he refers to Vader, and what he believes Vader would be capable of. He says that Kylo wouldn't succeed in snuffing out hope (Luke) because he's no Vader.
You might be right, although hardly anyone knew of his identity as Darth Sidious based on his political power. Fry was talking about his existence as a sith lord (IIRC the quote correctly), since, duh, who didn't know of the existence of Emperor Palpatine?
Luke was only knocked on his ass when he wasn't expecting it.
Mid-duel, he knocks Rey upside her head, casually parries all her strikes and then effortlessly rips her staff from her, disarming her. Rey never even touched him. Yes he schooled her ass.
__________________ "The power of the dark side is an illness no true Sith would wish to be cured of" -Darth Plagueis
I do not believe Fry was referencing political power either, as the question he answered specifically pertained to "dark side users" and "Darth Sidious"...
__________________
"I am tired of Earth. These people.
I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives."
Last edited by Galan007 on Jul 8th, 2018 at 02:05 AM
Maybe I'm remembering wrong, but I don't recall him once mentioning Vader. If he did, I think it'd be because Kylo worships (worshipped ) Vader so much.
The funny thing is that that's the main reason I think he's referring to political power. He said "[Snoke] certainly he had to know of [palpatine's] existence," but it wouldn't necessarily be all that obvious if it was about his secret identity.
You could be correct here, but in my mind, political power is the kind that makes you famous, and the kind that can be "shared," so to me it wouldn't make sense for him to be talking about power in the force, even though he is talking about them as two darksiders.
Although it's obvious he knew about Palpatine's sith-ness, the TFA novelization talks about how he knew what happened on the death star II. Wonder what else he knew. And is it just me, or did Alan Dean Foster and Jason Fry not talk at ALL?
As mentioned, the question/answer was centered around Palpatine's standing as a "dark side user/dark Lord", so there'd be no logical reason for Fry to be inextricably referencing his political power or whathaveyou(only a select few in the entire galaxy even knew of Palpatine's Sith alter ego, remember.) That said, I took it as Fry essentially saying: "Sidious would have viewed Snoke as a potential rival, then hunted him down and killed him... So it's a good thing Snoke didn't attract his attention."
And with all the emphasis Snoke himself placed on Kylo's power being inferior to Vader's, I fully believe that is also what Fry was referencing when he compared Snoke and Sidious there. /shrug
__________________
"I am tired of Earth. These people.
I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives."
Last edited by Galan007 on Jul 8th, 2018 at 11:38 PM
Jul 7th, 2018 07:41 PM
