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Home » Star Wars » Star Wars: Literature & Expanded Universe » Star Wars Versus Forum » Invisible Hand Anakin vs Exar Kun


Invisible Hand!Anakin vs Exar Kun
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Anakin 21 80.77%
Exar Kun 5 19.23%
Total: 26 votes 100%
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Invisible Hand Anakin vs Exar Kun
Started by: BestDebaterEver

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RealistRacism
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AP also did a thread with ILS and got clowned, so yeah I don't know what's going on with him. I'll find the Ziggy stuff in a sec.

Old Post Nov 6th, 2018 04:59 AM
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Old Post Nov 6th, 2018 05:02 AM
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AncientPower
The Chosen One

Registered: Aug 2014
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by One Big Mob
Post it because AP did an awful job there. He did some mild twisting and basically added a question mark to the proof.

That really should not have been included. If you're going to add something like that to the respect thread, you should provide counter proof or actually be thorough about it. Am I missing something on mobile mode or something? People in the comments were acting like Jmanant should be scared and I must be missing something... was this how he ended it, because this is how he ended his thread on my end:

"Yet he never clarifies anything about why Malak wins. So SF!Malak >>> Exar Kun?"


Except I showed that the one segment of that article Ant used was literally just saying that the Star Forge gave Malak access to powers Kun and Nadd didn't have. I also didn't want to force my own interpretation on it, instead I sought to open up some free thinking and debating instead of indly accepting a quote taken out of the context of the greater whole.

By the way, it ends with a .gif of Pablo Hidalgo saying "None of this is Canon". At least, on desktop.


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Old Post Nov 6th, 2018 05:21 AM
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One Big Mob
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by RealistRacism
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/...51#post16551871

Pages 5 and 7.
thumb up

Much better, though all it essentially boiled down to was "It could also mean this". I'm not too concerned about Malak vs Kun, but I just found it wildly out of place with an otherwise decently researched thread. I'm not saying I found everything perfect of course, but I mean come on. You can't read that and not see how out of place it is and how he didn't even cast doubt on the actual proof he presented. He might as well have posted the article and the tweets and said:

"But is he?"


My advice would be to delete that last section, or paraphrase everything Jmango said. It'd be a much more fitting end. I would have stated nothing had he ended it with a little more clarity I think is what my point is.

But now I have to explain why it was wrong, so here we are.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by AncientPower
Except I showed that the one segment of that article Ant used was literally just saying that the Star Forge gave Malak access to powers Kun and Nadd didn't have. I also didn't want to force my own interpretation on it, instead I sought to open up some free thinking and debating instead of indly accepting a quote taken out of the context of the greater whole.

By the way, it ends with a .gif of Pablo Hidalgo saying "None of this is Canon". At least, on desktop.
I saw the gif, but I was referring to your last words. But him calling it Legends doesn't exactly help your plight considering he is lumping it in with the Legends continuity. He wasn't saying it was non canon to Legends, he was saying it was non canon to Disney Wars.


No. And I also don't know what sort of shady shit Ant does in your opinion, but I do know adding additional context to the original quotes Ant apparently uses doesn't help.

Do you want me to explain these quotes and why you should avoid them? Let's do that then. Now I do have access to the original article but let's play the danger game and go by purely what you presented. We will use your quotes and common knowledge on the Star Forge here. That's it... this post. smile


"An imposing figure with ghostly pale features, prominent Sith tattoos, a gleaming red lightsaber, and devastating Dark Side power, Malak struck terror into the hearts of his former allies. He also wore a vocal mask that may have concealed a form of cybernetic life-support. Did it provide him with powers far greater than even Exar Kun or Freedon Nadd, or was cybernetic enhancement too simple an explanation?

Using a mysterious power source as yet undiscovered (complete Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic to learn more), Darth Malak possesses extraordinary dark side Force powers out of proportion, in game terms, with his class and level."


I'll just list off some things from memory (and based off Jmango's post to a degree) from the Star Forge:
It could create mass ships using the power of the sun. Create an army
It had cannons
It could turn the force energy of a Jedi into pure dark side energy that Malak could absorb
It gave Bastila an amp to her power just by being inside it



---



Now, based off first appearances, the addendum you added to the treachery of Darth Ant doesn't help:

"Using a mysterious power source as yet undiscovered (complete Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic to learn more), Darth Malak possesses extraordinary dark side Force powers out of proportion, in game terms, with his class and level."

Using a power source, Darth Malak POSSESSES Dark Side FORCE powers out of proportion with his stats that the article gave (which indicates an amp on the actual stats they gave).

No, hold on, let's simplify this further. This is what the quote means if it's referring to the power source (cannons, ship building, dark side taint makers):

"Using a power source, Darth Malak possesses a power source to create some ships, also cannons."

That's redundant. It's not referring to itself twice, and the sentence makes little sense. It's referring to the Dark Side FORCE POWERS that the power source gives him. Cannons, and ships don't fall under the definition of Force Powers. That is a misinterpretation of the quote.

We're under the assumption that this power source grants him additional Dark Side Force Powers that directly flow into stated stats. This additional power apparently is out of proportion with his stats. Using the power source he possesses additional Dark Side Force Powers that are above his stats. IE, he is amped far above his norm to an unknown degree.

Now we'll go back to what this means if it's referring to ships:

"Using a mysterious power source as yet undiscovered, Darth Malak possesses extraordinary dark side Force power ship building abilities, and cannons out of proportion, in game terms, with his stats."

I looked at the stats. None of them mention ship building abilities that these powers would make them out of proportion with.



ETC. Basically it can't be speaking of ship building abilities and cannons. It has to be speaking to additional force powers he gained from the Star Force. Which is again, redundant, because we know he did in at least one way (two if we assume he gets the same powerup Bastila did). However, it's important for the reading of the article.


---


Now we get to the meat of the article. One shady Ant with his gross bug legs spouts around everywhere.
Again, important parts in bold:


"An imposing figure with ghostly pale features, prominent Sith tattoos, a gleaming red lightsaber, and devastating Dark Side power, Malak struck terror into the hearts of his former allies. He also wore a vocal mask that may have concealed a form of cybernetic life-support. Did it provide him with powers far greater than even Exar Kun or Freedon Nadd, or was cybernetic enhancement too simple an explanation?"

Did his jaw afford him far greater powers than Freedon Kun, or was cybernetic enhancement too easy an answer?


Again, let's simplify this:

"Did Darth Malak's jaw give him far more physical strength, ship building abilities, and cannons than Exar Kun, or Freedon Nadd (intangible spirit incapable of physical strength, cannons and ship building qualities)?"

In addition to referring to Freedon Nadd in reference to ship building and cannons, it also says FAR GREATER, not more numerous powers. Since we highly doubt it's including Nadd in the conversation with what the Star Forge creates (again, far greater, not powers he doesn't have in the first place), what could these possible powers entail? What could FAR GREATER POWERS be if we want to pretend it's not purely speaking about actual force powers? What could be more realistic than actualized force powers?

Also, it's not stating he has access to these powers that he never uses. It's not a potential power source in this case. It is asking what gave him powers far greater than those two, not if the upgrade gave him powers far above them. That's a very important distinction. For that to be true, it would read something like this:

"He also wore a vocal mask that may have concealed a form of cybernetic life-support. Did it provide him with powers far greater than even Exar Kun or Freedon Nadd?"

That's it.

However the importance of that second part - where it asks for an explanation for why his powers are greater - means it isn't a question of whether or not his powers are greater, but why? It confirms that with whatever they could be speaking of with far greater powers, that Malak is greater than the duo is at those specific powers.

Basically all it questions is whether or not Malak's jaw is the culprit behind his far greater powers. That's it.



And in case it needs to be said, "powers far greater" is speaking of powers they already have. That statement is a direct contrast of their powers, and Malak's are greater. Not more numerous, not powers they don't have, but greater powers than them.



---



Now, I chose to read the second part first, and for good reason. That reason is, by you directly connecting the quotes like that (they weren't in the article), you made it seem like they were explaining their previous paragraph - that Ant likes to sashay around like a pansy - to mean they were speaking about this power source giving Malak Dark Side Force Powers far greater than Freedon Nadd, and Exar Kun. I mean we can, we very easily can, but you keeping those two quotes so close makes it seem like they are specifically speaking about him getting an amp to DSFP in excess of them.

For example, this is how that reads:

"Is it his jaw that's giving him powers far greater than Freedon Nadd and Exar Kun? Who knows, but whatever this mysterious power is, it's severely amping his Dark Side Force Powers to get to that level."

Do you see where I'm going with that?


I think that should help. But wait.


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Last edited by One Big Mob on Nov 6th, 2018 at 07:44 AM

Old Post Nov 6th, 2018 07:40 AM
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One Big Mob
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Registered: Jun 2006
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However, we shall delve deeper. Let's actually read the whole article, shall we?

http://web.archive.org/web/20090603...sw20031009malak

Why is this important you ask? Because the article has no trouble mentioning fleets, dark jedis, alien battleships, corps, and yes, a limitless supply of ships (cannons included). It makes use of a bunch of powers Malak has and none of them are out of the ordinary for a Kun level user.

It literally covers the excuses and misinterpretations people have for the quotes. Those aren't a secret. Here just because I have to include it:

"At his disposal was a thousands-strong army of trained Sith conscripts and corrupted Dark Jedi, and a rumored alliance with the massive Czerka Corporation. Malak's Sith fleets were comprised of Republic defectors and a seemingly limitless supply of strange, alien battleships."


Those weren't connected to his powers. But considering we know the limitless supply of ships was no secret, yet we still assume "Powers far greater" had in someway anything to do with ships, then the article is literally asking - in some people's interpretations - if his fukking jaw is the cause of this limitless amount of ships. laughing out loud
Do I need to explain this too?



Basically the full article separates his fleet and things not connected to his body from his personal power. And why wouldn't it? Afterall, the intention of this guide is for people to fight Darth Malak in a head to head confrontation.


In combination with the limitless ships being known in this article, and what I said previously, I don't think the article can be pointing to anything but personal power. And I don't think it has any room in a respect thread, especially when you don't even try to discount it, and then show tweets of someone confirming that he thinks Malak would beat Kun. laughing out loud

Again, I'm not concerned with the actual battle between the two, since I don't think you really want me to go into a lot more things to discuss. I'm just providing my interpretation of the article, and why I don't think you should have used it.


But that's just how I read it. I could be missing stuff since I proofread none of this, and don't plan to, but I will expand if need be.


*"ships and cannons" are a placeholder for more things possible. I'm not saying they were the only possible things, just a placeholder for the most likely things. I'm not limiting it to just that of course, or what you guys are specifically stating, just saves time. Of course I don't believe any of that, just in the event you get confused that I'm straw manning you guyseseseses*


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Last edited by One Big Mob on Nov 6th, 2018 at 07:43 AM

Old Post Nov 6th, 2018 07:41 AM
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BestDebaterEver
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One Big Mob smiting everywhere he goes. Come get these lightning bolts, bitches.

Old Post Nov 6th, 2018 07:55 AM
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XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
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Mob doing the work of the Supreme Maker as per usual


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Old Post Nov 6th, 2018 07:58 AM
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RealistRacism
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Big Mob just initiated the 100th debate AP will have on this topic thumb up

Old Post Nov 6th, 2018 08:17 AM
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RealistRacism
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The real debate should still be Palpatine vs Malak. Are we just going to ignore Malak's RPG force stats sh!itting all over Sheev's? This is a real libtard ownage moment cool

Old Post Nov 6th, 2018 08:48 AM
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AncientPower
The Chosen One

Registered: Aug 2014
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I like how you're using Jmango's argument for ships and cannons as if I've been using that myself in more recent arguments. I fully accept it isn't referring to the production of military resources.

But no, this is out of grasp with the actual context:

quote:
Enhanced Force Powers -- Using a mysterious power source as yet undiscovered (complete Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic to learn more), Darth Malak possesses extraordinary dark side Force powers out of proportion, in game terms, with his class and level. He gained three additional Force feats and 24 bonus skill points exclusively for dark side skills.


This literally states he gets three extra Force feats(techniques) and 24 extra skill points(Mastery) in said Force feats from a mysterious power source, but it doesn't specify which Force feats/techniques/powers they are. That doesn't matter all that much in our debate though. Because this entire quote is the in-game attempt at implementing the effects of the 'mysterious power source' (Star Forge) on Malak. It's literally this quote in game terms:

quote:
An imposing figure with ghostly pale features, prominent Sith tattoos, a gleaming red lightsaber, and devastating Dark Side power, Malak struck terror into the hearts of his former allies. He also wore a vocal mask that may have concealed a form of cybernetic life-support. Did it provide him with powers far greater than even Exar Kun or Freedon Nadd, or was cybernetic enhancement too simple an explanation?


Like, it couldn't be more obvious that this is what he was going for. In both quotes he refers to powers Malak has that he gained from a power source no one knows about. It clearly doesn't refer to Malak's actual power in the Force. Note his usage of these terms:

"and devastating Dark Side power"

"Did it provide him with powers far greater"

Herndon clearly knows his plurals and singulars, he tells the reader about Malak's actual power well before then.

More importantly, the entire gist of Malak using the Star Forge in the actual source material, doesn't put emphasis on how corrupted the station is or how powerful he is on it. The big smoking gun is literally Malak being able to draw taint from the Force power of dead Jedi willy-nilly. The big threat he makes is that he'll do this to Revan:

quote:
"The Star Forge is more than just a space station. In some ways, it is like a living creature. It hungers. And it can feed on the dark side that is within all of us! Look around you, Revan. See the bodies? You should recognize them from the Academy. These are Jedi who fell when I attacked Dantooine. For all intents and purposes dead, except for one difference:I have not let them become one with the Force. Instead I have brought them here. The Star Forge corrupts what remains of their power and transfers the dark taint to me! You cannot beat me, Revan. Not here on the Star Forge. Not when I can draw upon the power of all these Jedi! And once you are beaten I will do the same to you. You will be trapped in a terrible existence between life and death, your power feeding me as I conquer the galaxy!"
- Darth Malak


Consumption of tainted spiritual energy from Jedi who are dead, but suspended in a way that they can't become one with the Force. That's the big secret to the Star Forge. It's actually pretty interesting, because that's what Darth Plagueis spent years researching to try and prevent. The spirit's inevitable pull into the Void/midichlorians disappearing upon death. He was increasing his power with the tainted power the Star Forge gave him access to.

Very impressive, because it's far from your average drain. In fact, I'm not entirely sure it is drain. Regular drain would be Krayt drawing on Luke/Abeloth. This is more akin to spirit consumption ala Nox or Vitiate.


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Last edited by AncientPower on Nov 6th, 2018 at 09:15 AM

Old Post Nov 6th, 2018 09:12 AM
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DarthCaedus77
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Yay, AP's having a 50 page debate.


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Old Post Nov 6th, 2018 05:12 PM
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One Big Mob
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AP, to get some clarification, are you arguing that the Star Forge provided more powers to Malak than Exar Kun had; like if Exar Kun had 4 force powers, Malak had 10? Or, are you arguing that the new powers that the Star Forge gave him are greater than Exar Kun/Freedon Nadd?


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Old Post Nov 6th, 2018 09:53 PM
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AncientPower
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That his powers were 'greater' than those Kun or Nadd weilded, not more numerous.


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Old Post Nov 6th, 2018 10:41 PM
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One Big Mob
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Expand on how that wouldn't make him more powerful.


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Old Post Nov 6th, 2018 10:48 PM
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AncientPower
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The potency of a technique does not equate to the individual power of the user. I somehow doubt you'd agree Traya > Vader due to 'giga' drain.


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Last edited by AncientPower on Nov 6th, 2018 at 11:14 PM

Old Post Nov 6th, 2018 11:09 PM
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One Big Mob
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...

Alright.

I had a couple posts ready under the guise that you were going with numerous (which is also a reason people state outside you apparently), but I figured I'd ask first right before submitting. I actually joked about this being something you couldn't be arguing about... oh how wrong I was.
Anyway, I might get back to this tomorrow or doubtfully later on tonight. I've had enough Star Wars stuff for now. I think I know how to play the ****ing roleplaying game now to a great degree, so I think that might be enough for the day.


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Last edited by One Big Mob on Nov 6th, 2018 at 11:48 PM

Old Post Nov 6th, 2018 11:46 PM
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AncientPower
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Fair enough.


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Old Post Nov 6th, 2018 11:52 PM
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Rebel95
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Anakin wins this. Good fight

Old Post Nov 7th, 2018 02:43 PM
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The Ellimist
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Jaggarath
*Over KOTOR Revan


Revan Reborn is a Jedi


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Old Post Nov 7th, 2018 07:28 PM
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One Big Mob
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Revan Reborn is a Jedi
Revan is a God actually.


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For the Gamma Father, the Gamma Bomb, and The Green Door

Old Post Nov 8th, 2018 09:14 AM
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