I'm not going to push the second fight as I don't want this post to be overly long and we get into all kinds of murky waters when discussing the second.
I just want to address the first. Vader did fight on par with Starkiller. Him getting ragdolled right at the end does not mean he didn't put up a fight lol.
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"You were weak when I found you. I did not expect you to survive your training. But now, your hatred has become your strength. At last, the dark side is your ally. "
Last edited by HP Legend on Dec 1st, 2018 at 05:13 PM
I mean based on the game Starkiller was enraged however the novel makes a point of him being exhausted.
Also yes for some reason people try particularly hard to undermine all of Vader's best achievments and lowball him and like you I want to know why.
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"You were weak when I found you. I did not expect you to survive your training. But now, your hatred has become your strength. At last, the dark side is your ally. "
That's because Galen realized that he didn't actually know what Vader was truly capable of and decided to test Vader's capabilities and find a way to defeat him that wouldn't lead him down the path to the Darkside before truly going all out against him. This is made clear in their initial engagement where Vader is barely capable of intercepting Starkiller's attacks.
Relevant passages below:
"Ducking low, he stabbed for his Master's belly then flicked the tip of his lightsaber upward, hoping to catch the chin of Darth Vader's helmet and spear him through the throat. The red lightsaber blocked the blow, but only barely. They parted for a moment to assess the brief exchange and circled each other warily. The apprentice understood that, until this moment, they had never truly fought as equals. His Master had either held back, or he himself had capitulated. Now, for the first time, they would see each other's true potential."
-
"You are weak," the apprentice said as his former Master launched a second series of bone-crushing blows, each one of which he blocked with elegant precision. Darth Vader fought brilliantly, never employing anything less than a killing stroke. His intention was lethal. All he needed was one slip, one tiny gap in his opponent's defenses. The apprentice vowed not to give him one. He whirled and danced around his Master's defenses, testing them to their limits.
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The apprentice felt the wild, joyous energies of the dark side flowing through him and he resisted its [ the Dark Side's ] call, seeking a better way to finish the job.
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Glancing over Darth Vader's shoulder, he saw the Emperor watching the duel, his face screwed up in malevolent delight. And the apprentice understood. A better way to kill...
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"I don't hate you," the apprentice went on, blocking him blow for blow. "I pity you." With a new strength of his own, he forced Darth Vader onto his back foot. "You destroyed who I was and made me as I am now, but this wasn't your idea. It was the Emperor's, and it's what he's already done to you." A strip of Darth Vader's cape fluttered away, smoking. The two came closer together until they were face-to-mask. The apprentice stared directly into the black eye guards of his former Master. "You are his creature just as I was yours-but you've never had the strength to rebel. That's why I pity you. I will no longer serve a monster, and if I have my way I'll make sure you don't, either."
Vader tried to pull away, but the apprentice followed him, keeping him on the back foot.
"I will kill you," he said, "to set you free."
The lightsabers flashed again-and it was the apprentice who found the chink in the armor that both of them had been waiting for. Vader's lightsaber moved too slowly to block a blow to his chest, allowing the apprentice's blade to slash deeply across his armored throat. Vader staggered backward, gloved hand upraised to the smoking wound." - The Force Unleashed.
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The one attempt at Dun Moch on Galen's part ended up actually backfiring and allowing Vader to come closer to actually landing a blow on Galen then he did at any point in the fight:
"I understand you now," he said, still trying to goad his former Master into breaking his concentration. "You killed my father and kidnapped me from Kashyyyk, not just to be your apprentice, but to be a son to you. Was that how your father treated you?"
The intensity of Darth Vader's attack redoubled. "I have no father."
The apprentice fell back under the rain of blows. The sizzling of fabric and a faint stink of burning skin told him that at least two of Darth Vader's misses had been horribly near, but he felt no pain." - The Force Unleashed.
You might argue the latter part of the fight I posted constitutes Dun Moch but considering the text emphasizes that it's GALEN who gains strength from his newfound convictions and that previous attempts at Dun Moch only ENHANCED Vader's performance. it's highly unlikely to have served the function you're suggesting.
It came after Galen had "gained a newfound strength." I don't see why the lightsaber blow would have been all that relevant considering it didn't even draw blood.
"The lightsabers flashed again-and it was the apprentice who found the chink in the armor that both of them had been waiting for. Vader's lightsaber moved too slowly to block a blow to his chest, allowing the apprentice's blade to slash deeply across his armored throat. Vader staggered backward, gloved hand upraised to the smoking wound. There was no blood. Instead of pressing the attack, the apprentice stood his ground. Despite himself, he was as surprised as his former Master clearly was. For a moment, the only sounds were the twin humming of the lightsabers and the wheezing of Darth Vader's respirator. Then the Dark Lord laughed." - The Force Unleashed.
Not to mention, Darksiders ( Caedus being a prime example ) tend to draw on the pain from their injuries to become more powerful, the amp they gain from their pain not only offsetting most of the hampering effects of the injury but usually increasing their capabilities beyond their original uninjured states.
Last edited by Galan007 on Dec 1st, 2018 at 06:16 PM
"He felt weary. Well, wearier. That last fight on Almania had stolen a lot of his strength. Keeping himself going despite his injury had taken more. And now this. What he had sacrificed he would eventually regain, after rest and food and meditation, but for now he felt tired to his bones." - Fate of the Jedi: Conviction.
Unless you're suggesting that Starkiller has a faster recovery rate or knows a specific ability that GM Luke does not.
Not only that but Starkiller literally had no time to "heal" as you put it since Vader engaged with him after a brief exchange of dialogue after he accomplished the feat that left him more exhausted then ever before.
"The tips of his lightsabers shook. He had never felt so exhausted, at every level of his being. He felt simultaneously cleansed and poisoned. Nothing moved. Slowly, incredulously, he began to believe that it was over. They were all dead. He had destroyed every last one of them. He was the only one left-of the many Darth Vader had created to do his bidding.
"Why me?" he asked the silent cloning tower.
"Search your feelings, " Vader said, stepping into view at the very top of the tower, lightsaber held tightly in his right hand. "The answer lies within you. "
Starkiller stared up at his former Master. What did he have that none of the other clones did?
He remembered:
"How long this time?"
"Thirteen days. Impressive."
And he remembered:
" The Force gives me all I need."
"The Force?"
"The dark side. I mean."
Slowly a dark understanding began to form. All the duels, all the tests, all the torturous mind games, had been to ensure his survival against every opponent-bar one. His Master. In a sense, they were still playing out the first time they had faced each other in combat. He didn't remember the early days of his apprenticeship, when the memories of his parents had been strong and the young boy he had once been resisted Vader's absolute authority, but he was sure the battle had been even then, psychological. The battle would never cease until one of them won. Was this what it was like to be a Sith? Forever at war with one's own Master?
"Your training made me strong enough to escape you, " he said, "not obey you. "
"Yet here you are. " Darth Vader's words fell on him like heavy weights. "My most deadly creation. "
"You lie!" Starkiller jumped up to the next platform, passion stirring him to action. "You never wanted this. You can't have. Once Juno has been rescued, your facility will be destroyed. You with it, if there's any justice."
"There is no justice, " said Darth Vader, watching him ascend. "Only power." Vader made no move to defend himself when Starkiller reached the very top of the cloning tower. Determined to prove him wrong, Starkiller didn't waste time announcing his intentions. He just lunged. Only at the very last moment did Vader raise his blade to block the blow, and even then the move seemed almost casual, disinterested. Starkiller struck again, with both lightsabers. Vader blocked one blade and used telekinesis to throw the other off target. The platform buckled and twisted, sending Starkiller flying. He rolled and leapt, and came up swinging. Covered in blood-the blood of his fellow clones-and knowing Juno was close, he fought his former Master with single-minded focus." - The Force Unleashed II.
It implies the exact opposite... As do A multitude of quotes that state otherwise.
"They parted for a moment to assess the brief exchange and circled each other warily.
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The Dark Lord was already moving. The red blade of his lightsaber flared into life, casting bloody shadows across the room. There was no discussion. He offered no threats. It was clear he intended only to complete what he had failed to finish on Corellia.
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Darth Vader fought brilliantly, never employing anything less than a killing stroke. His intention was lethal.
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"You thought I was dead," he said, letting that small triumph spur his determination to new heights. Their lightsabers danced, blurring and sweeping and shedding sparks in a way that would have been beautiful had their intent not been so deadly." - The Force Unleashed.
1. He performed as he did because of his exhaustion. A factor you did not address.
2. Even in this state he was capable of overpowering Vader with lightning to the point he would have been able to kill him had it not been for an untimely vision.
"Starkiller fired a lightning blast into the side of Vader's armor that was so concentrated, even the new insulation couldn't absorb it. The Dark Lord stiffened, betrayed by his extensive prosthetics. The distraction lasted only a moment, but it was enough. Starkiller knocked his blade out of the way and moved in to strike. Juno lying limp in his arms. The vision struck him as powerfully as a physical blow. When he tried to push it aside, it returned with even more power. Juno-dead. He reeled in shock." - The Force Unleashed II.
Last edited by Beelzebub on Dec 1st, 2018 at 05:30 PM
This was only during the initial phase where they were assessing each other's capabilities and Galen was looking for a way to defeat Vader without giving in to his own darkness as I detail in my post above.
According to Chee, the first TFU novel takes precedence over any ancillary material ( such as the games and comics ). I don't see why that wouldn't be the case with the second as well.
Last edited by Beelzebub on Dec 1st, 2018 at 05:38 PM
__________________
"You were weak when I found you. I did not expect you to survive your training. But now, your hatred has become your strength. At last, the dark side is your ally. "
Rage amps can't overcome that level of exhaustion for too long before the character in question is even more spent than he started off - e.g Maul vs Sidious.
Starkiller fighting Vader is no where near his full power considering the physical strain and of course PTSD flash backs hindering him. It sets him back considerably. GM Luke under arguably better circumstances claims he dropped several tiers down to Knight level thanks to a physical and emotional ebb in composure.
It's pretty obvious why. Vader fans are desperate to cling to their Starkiller Trophy. Despite it being phoney. If it wasn't obvious that Vader can't hang with SK by the circumstances, then it is by virtue of TPM Maul obliterating in a physical contest - only loosing to a cheap trick.
So what if Galen used Force rage? Using that logic then Vader is a poor duelist too since he employs Force rage in combat too.
__________________ RealistRacism: "Sheevites, much like the Banites, were meant to increase in power with each member. From Lightsnake to Gideon to Azronger, this was supposed to be the case. However, knowledge must've been lost in some kind of Gravid-like incident, as Az turned out to be a mid-tier debater with a sub-par track record, sh!itting all over Tempest's legacy. Sad."
I think that Starkiller vs Vader he's is between being angry but extremely emotionally unbalanced but also not letting go and giving into the Darkside. Which on top of the exhaustion, compounds the factors against him even more.
And even then Vader still looses. It's actually pretty pathetic.
Dec 1st, 2018 05:09 PM
