Originally posted by Creshosk
You can stop bbeing an [b]ass[b]hole[/b] at any time you know. . .I already admited I made a mistake.So you're excused from this thread. buh bye now and don't come back until you're ready to not be an ass[b]hole[/b] [/B]
Cresh... When do you NOT use things people say against them? 3/4 of your debate strategy is to attack other people's words, in context or not.
You know scotsman... this PIS and strawmanning stuff we've been talking about that's obviously going over your head... Read your little pictures. They're actually quite good definitions of both, if you get the background on them.
Jin... Spiderman dodges lasers consciously, Wolverine guesses and dives. The difference is the real probability of each working consistantly. It being a comic, both will do quite well consistantly, but since Spiderman dodges completely out of skill, reflexes, and agility, where Wolverine relies on some luck, his chances to dodge stuff like machine gun fire and lasers for an extended period of time is much much higher.
Originally posted by Melnorme
Wolverine could definitely dodge some of the webbing all of the time, or all of the webbing some of the time, but not all of the webbing all of the time. I'm confident that, inevitably, Spidey would be able to tie him up.Which leads to your next question, and I think, no he probably wouldn't win without the webbing. While I can't wrap my head around why Logan is relatively unknockoutable (not really a word, but whatever). He sure wasn't back inna day...
Later...
But, clearly, in more recent storylines Wolverine seems to have acquired something similar to "Homer Simpson Disease"; a layer of additional fluid around the brain that keeps him from getting knocked out as a "normal" person would, even with an adamantium skull. So, I don't think Spidey could reasonably expect to knock him out. He may, with a lucky blow, but that's no guarantee.
Of course, Spidey might be able to do something nasty, like stick to Wolvie's back, grab his arms, and pop them out of the sockets. Not sure on that, though. Not sure if it would guarantee a win, either.
No, see, Wolverine can move, yet his skeleton is still one gigantic, solid piece of adamantium. Logically, that's impossible, and his limbs should still be ripoffable, (as they are in Ultimates) but physics suck in comics. They suck hard.
And hehe, Homer Simpsonitis.
Originally posted by DizzleI don't go back to admited mistakes to use against a person.
Cresh... When do you NOT use things people say against them? 3/4 of your debate strategy is to attack other people's words, in context or not.
Originally posted by DizzlePIS because you don't like them?
You know scotsman... this PIS and strawmanning stuff we've been talking about that's obviously going over your head... Read your little pictures. They're actually quite good definitions of both, if you get the background on them.
Originally posted by DizzleActually Spiderman doesn't use skill to dodge, since its all reflexisve. Of course he's reacting to something that is in turn reacting to the threat, rather than him reacting to the threat itself.
Jin... Spiderman dodges lasers consciously, Wolverine guesses and dives. The difference is the real probability of each working consistantly. It being a comic, both will do quite well consistantly, but since Spiderman dodges completely out of skill, reflexes, and agility, where Wolverine relies on some luck, his chances to dodge stuff like machine gun fire and lasers for an extended period of time is much much higher.
Originally posted by Creshosk
I don't go back to admited mistakes to use against a person.PIS because you don't like them?
Actually Spiderman doesn't use skill to dodge, since its all reflexisve. Of course he's reacting to something that is in turn reacting to the threat, rather than him reacting to the threat itself.
Yet you do put words in people's mouths. Three times just for me, actually. I said something, you put your own definition on it, despite the fact that I had already explained myself. Can't take the heat cuz you don't like it?
PIS because Spiderman has proven much faster, and Wolverine had just done the impossible/there were other circumstances involved. Spidey getting hit in the graveyard is showing Spiderman being stupid, not Wolverine doing anything but having extra brain fat and a thick skull. Wolverine did the equivalent of ripping through steel cables to hit Spiderman in the training session, who later called him an idiot, which would lead one to believe that he wasn't really trying to avoid it, because he didn't think Logan would actually use the claws. Showing "just the end result", something you argued adamantly against, is not really intelligent debate strategy.
He interprets his spidersense and acts accordingly. It doesn't take a whole lot of skill, but it's not like it takes none at all either.
Originally posted by Creshosk
That's actually what he's refering to, the penel right before that with wolverine saying "here it comes" like he's expecting the shot.
I mean, really...most people who see Spiderman coming at them probably think "here it comes". It doesn't necessarily mean they can do anything about it. And nowhere does it imply that Logan let him beat his head this way and that...
Originally posted by Dizzle
No, see, Wolverine can move, yet his skeleton is still one gigantic, solid piece of adamantium. Logically, that's impossible, and his limbs should still be ripoffable, (as they are in Ultimates) but physics suck in comics. They suck hard.And hehe, Homer Simpsonitis.
Physics and physiology, my friend. Ligaments aren't made of the same stuff as bone...but maybe the adamantium grafting process made Wolverine's a bit better than normal?
Anyway, even if you can't rip off his shoulder, you could probably dislocate it. It's just a ball popping out of a socket. It happens to people all the time.
Originally posted by DizzleNice non sequiter. 🙂 Has nothing to do with what was previously said, you insist on discrediting me so you change your attack when the previous one was debunked. 🙂
Yet you do put words in people's mouths. Three times just for me, actually. I said something, you put your own definition on it, despite the fact that I had already explained myself. Can't take the heat cuz you don't like it?
Originally posted by Dizzle
PIS because Spiderman has proven much faster,
Knew it.
Originally posted by DizzleSo plot device makes it stupid? I'll have to keep that in mind.
and Wolverine had just done the impossible/there were other circumstances involved.
Originally posted by DizzleHe was panicing.
Spidey getting hit in the graveyard is showing Spiderman being stupid,
So emotion = "bad writing"?
Originally posted by DizzleOr it was his healing factor. . . I think you took that "homer simpson syndrome" a little too seriously.
not Wolverine doing anything but having extra brain fat and a thick skull.
Originally posted by Dizzle[ Oh, being nitpicky about the art?
Wolverine did the equivalent of ripping through steel cables to hit Spiderman in the training session,
Originally posted by DizzleOh so he LET himself get hit?
who later called him an idiot, which would lead one to believe that he wasn't really trying to avoid it,
Originally posted by DizzleSo much for that precog hthing eh?
because he didn't think Logan would actually use the claws.
Originally posted by DizzleYou're right, except that that's not his point. 🙂
Showing "just the end result", something you argued adamantly against, is not really intelligent debate strategy.
Originally posted by DizzleSo it's not reflexive? He interprets it and then acts. . . putting a speed of thought delay on his reactions?
He interprets his spidersense and acts accordingly.
Originally posted by DizzleActually it doesn't take any. Brainchild has a link in his siggy which illustrates just that:
It doesn't take a whole lot of skill, but it's not like it takes none at all either.
Originally posted by MelnormeThere are several example of this. And this is something I've been saying as well.
Physics and physiology, my friend. Ligaments aren't made of the same stuff as bone...but maybe the adamantium grafting process made Wolverine's a bit better than normal?
Originally posted by MelnormeNot certain, the bonding process might have been different to other realities.
Anyway, even if you can't rip off his shoulder, you could probably dislocate it. It's just a ball popping out of a socket. It happens to people all the time.
There was an example of grey hulk asking wolverine why he couldn't rip him apart. . . as well as others.
Originally posted by Creshosk
Nice non sequiter. 🙂 Has nothing to do with what was previously said, you insist on discrediting me so you change your attack when the previous one was debunked. 🙂"It's pis because Spiderman was portrayed bad!"
Knew it.
So plot device makes it stupid? I'll have to keep that in mind.
Plot device = "bad writing"
He was panicing.So emotion = "bad writing"?
Or it was his healing factor. . . I think you took that "homer simpson syndrome" a little too seriously.
[ Oh, being nitpicky about the art?
Oh so he LET himself get hit?
So much for that precog hthing eh?
You're right, except that that's not his point. 🙂
So it's not reflexive? He interprets it and then acts. . . putting a speed of thought delay on his reactions?
Actually it doesn't take any. Brainchild has a link in his siggy which illustrates just that:
Nothing to do with what was previously said? You were freaking out on will for bringing up your mistake. I said nitpicking language is a large part of your debate strategy. The example of you doing this was when you brought up an argument of mine, twisted my words, and tried to use it against me. Accusing will of something you do yourself makes you a hypocrite. I wasn't really arguing Wolv vs. Spiderman, I was defending willrules. Because he does.
So Spiderman's top tier feats are not usable, but Wolverine's are? It's been proven that Spiderman is easily fast enough to dodge a punch, even when he is in the air. It's been proven that he is easily fast enough to dodge Wolverine for a prolonged period of time. So yes, Spiderman has been portrayed as faster. Is Wolverine getting knocked out by a "glancing blow" from the Hulk valid now? How bout Guardian owning the crap out of him? How bout 3 guys with guns overcoming his healing factor? Both characters have low end feats, but we don't really use them as examples, because THAT'S WHAT PIS IS. All of scotsman's scans involve unlikely circumstances or PIS.
What, plot devices are acceptable arguments? Batman DOES=God... Most of the graveyard fight was one giant plot device. Spiderman never broke out one of his primary weapons (webs), and he, against a guy with claws, allowed his opponent a couple free shots. He was fighting stupid, Wolverine didn't hit him by using his skill or speed, Spiderman let him. Emotions affecting fighting ability is a plot device. Not necessarily bad writing, but not an acceptable portrayal of the character in this forum.
I was alluding to Melnorme's post with the brain fat thing. I know it's supposed to be his healing factor, but unless it works before he gets hit, he should still get knocked unconscious very easily, because his skull is way harder than normal skulls. It's just a stupid thing that happens so frequently it's practically one of his powers. I don't agree with the "justification", but I can accept that Wolverine won't be knocked out.
Is there any real explanation other than Wolverine ripping through them? His arms were webbed in a position that he could not get out of in any other way. Art is an integral part of comics. Getting just the text would make it a crappy book, not a comic.
Basically, yeah, he let himself get hit. Or writers forget that he's an amazing acrobat yet again. He didn't even try to dodge or swing away with webs or anything. At the least, he isn't trying very hard not to get hit.
Spidersense tells him of the presence of danger, not of the exact form of the danger. You're grabbing at straws...
His point is to be an ass, basically. The only real point, other than him being a lil b!tch, is that "Wolverine won, Spiderman didn't", regardless of the fact that much of it was plot devices and/or PIS. Direct comparison isn't good, unless we wanna get into SvFL.
I said his precog warns him and he reacts. I never said he contemplated the danger anywhere in there. The reaction is physical. He does know how to trust the spider sense and work off of it very well, however. Spiderman's very skilled with the use of his powers and webs.
Originally posted by CreshoskOr like he thinks he's about to f**k Spidey up. Here it (this ass whuppin' I'm 'bout to give you) comes. Look @ the dark outline pic. Wolvie's getting punched in the face. In the 2nd to last panel pic. Wolvie clearly has the claws in front of him. Notice in the next pic, that Wolvie's getting punched in the side of the face and not the front. He punched around them. Wolvie didn't let him do anything. He just couldn't do sh*t about it. I doubt the Spidey sense would let him punch @ razor sharp unbreakable things.
That's actually what he's refering to, the penel right before that with wolverine saying "here it comes" like he's expecting the shot.
Originally posted by CreshoskYou owe me a nickel now
Actually it doesn't take any. Brainchild has a link in his siggy which illustrates just that:
Originally posted by DizzleNope bringing up present strategy, has no bearing on another person bringing up past mistakes.
Nothing to do with what was previously said?[b/]
Originally posted by DizzleSee totally disconnected.
[B]You were freaking out on will for bringing up your mistake.I said nitpicking language is a large part of your debate strategy.
Originally posted by DizzleWhich has nothing to do with bringing up past mistakes.
The example of you doing this was when you brought up an argument of mine, twisted my words, and tried to use it against me.
Originally posted by DizzleIt would if I did that. 🙂 Which I don't.
Accusing will of something you do yourself makes you a hypocrite.
Originally posted by DizzleSo you were defending someone who was in the wrong with a non-sequiter. . . because he attempted an ad hominem?
I wasn't really arguing Wolv vs. Spiderman, I was defending willrules. Because he does.
Originally posted by DizzleOF course not, only Spiderman's top tier feats are useable, and anything that makes wolverine look good and especially if its a direct comparison between the two characters it's not useable.
So Spiderman's top tier feats are not usable, but Wolverine's are?
Originally posted by DizzleAnd he's also been hit plenty of times, same with wolverine dodging some and taking others, but I guess Spiderman dodges absolutly everything, and Wolverine dodges nothing. Right?
It's been proven that Spiderman is easily fast enough to dodge a punch,
Originally posted by DizzleSpiderman is as strong as the hulk?
even when he is in the air. It's been proven that he is easily fast enough to dodge Wolverine for a prolonged period of time. So yes, Spiderman has been portrayed as faster. Is Wolverine getting knocked out by a "glancing blow" from the Hulk valid now?
Originally posted by DizzleAnd how hard did Guardian hit? Can you prove it?
How bout Guardian owning the crap out of him?
Originally posted by DizzleOh so now wer're only using Woplverine low end feats? See told you you hypocrite.
How bout 3 guys with guns overcoming his healing factor?[/]b
Double hypocrite because you tried to chew me out for a preceived hypocrasy.
Originally posted by DizzleYes because Wolverine is doing good it's pis. . . 🙄 Or is it because Spiderman was not being protrayed as godlike?
[B]Both characters have low end feats, but we don't really use them as examples, because THAT'S WHAT PIS IS. All of scotsman's scans involve unlikely circumstances or PIS.
Originally posted by DizzleAppearently they are since Spiderman does indeed get just what he needs right when he needs it.
What, plot devices are acceptable arguments?
Originally posted by DizzleOh so now it's a plot device? 🙄
Batman DOES=God... Most of the graveyard fight was one giant plot device.
I guess technically every story is a plot device isn't it?
So I guess comic aren not useable.
Originally posted by Dizzle🙄 yeah I gess Wolverine is always a plot device when he fights, and so is hulk, since hey, rage is an emotion, and guess what?
Spiderman never broke out one of his primary weapons (webs), and he, against a guy with claws, allowed his opponent a couple free shots. He was fighting stupid, Wolverine didn't hit him by using his skill or speed, Spiderman let him. Emotions affecting fighting ability is a plot device.
Sorry, emotions are part of the characters.
Originally posted by DizzleYes because he was portrayed as less than a god wasn't he?
Not necessarily bad writing, but not an acceptable portrayal of the character in this forum.
Originally posted by DizzleBullshit, unless he's knocked out before he takes the damage.
I was alluding to Melnorme's post with the brain fat thing. I know it's supposed to be his healing factor, but unless it works before he gets hit, he should still get knocked unconscious very easily,
Originally posted by DizzleSo why are you weven mentioning it in a way that sounds like you're trying to disccard it hmmm?
because his skull is way harder than normal skulls. It's just a stupid thing that happens so frequently it's practically one of his powers.
Originally posted by Dizzleexcept that you'll bring it up like it shouldn't be?
I don't agree with the "justification", but I can accept that Wolverine won't be knocked out.
Originally posted by DizzleWell. . .
Is there any real explanation other than Wolverine ripping through them?
But anyway you're still being nitpicky about the way the story was portrayed rather than what the story was.
Originally posted by DizzleSo you also feel that art is more important than the story?
His arms were webbed in a position that he could not get out of in any other way. Art is an integral part of comics.
Funny how Spiderman fanboys always seem to think that isn't it?
Originally posted by DizzleObviously some of the story is depicted as art, a bad depiction of the story in the art makes it a bad story? Bullshit.
Getting just the text would make it a crappy book, not a comic.
Originally posted by DizzleWell that's at least twice now. . . more times and it'll be frequent enough top be part of his character, rather than just his emotion. . won't it?
Basically, yeah, he let himself get hit.
Originally posted by DizzleUh, no you're grabbing at straws. . did you read the picture I posted? Hmm?
Or writers forget that he's an amazing acrobat yet again. He didn't even try to dodge or swing away with webs or anything. At the least, he isn't trying very hard not to get hit.Spidersense tells him of the presence of danger, not of the exact form of the danger. You're grabbing at straws...
I thought not.
Originally posted by Dizzle🙄 really? I thought that his earlier explinations of why he does it would have told you different. . . Guess you know him better than he knows himself huh?
His point is to be an ass, basically. The only real point, other than him being a lil b!tch, is that "Wolverine won, Spiderman didn't",
Originally posted by Dizzle"I didn't like it!"
regardless of the fact that much of it was plot devices and/or PIS.
Originally posted by DizzleSure then we can talk about frequency and how its then acceptable?
Direct comparison isn't good, unless we wanna get into SvFL.
Originally posted by Dizzle*yawn*
I said his precog warns him and he reacts. I never said he contemplated the danger anywhere in there.
"He interprets his spidersense and acts accordingly."
Originally posted by DizzleAS is Wolverine, as is just about any experienced character, it's still not a skill that is part of his spidersense.
The reaction is physical. He does know how to trust the spider sense and work off of it very well, however. Spiderman's very skilled with the use of his powers and webs.
Originally posted by brainchild81🙄
Or like he thinks he's about to f**k Spidey up. Here it (this ass whuppin' I'm 'bout to give you) comes. Look @ the dark outline pic. Wolvie's getting punched in the face. In the 2nd to last panel pic. Wolvie clearly has the claws in front of him. Notice in the next pic, that Wolvie's getting punched in the side of the face and not the front. He punched around them. Wolvie didn't let him do anything. He just couldn't do sh*t about it. I doubt the Spidey sense would let him punch @ razor sharp unbreakable things. You owe me a nickel now
Now we've got wishful thinking on our hands. . notice the claws aren't anywhere around? Not even in front of him? Funny how he was dodging pretty well earlier, but right after he says here it comes. . .he suddenly doesn't anymore?
Originally posted by brainchild81I said "pretty well" not "prefectly".
He got punched in the outline pic, before "here it comes".
Originally posted by brainchild81But you don't see the claws at all Even a side shot to the head would have hit the claws since the claws were not all right in the front of wolvie's face.
Later, Spidey's head is in front of the claws most likely. You don't see much in that pic besides Wolvie getting socked. It's a tight frame.
Originally posted by Creshosk😆 You didn't say "prefectly" and I hope you never do. Then what makes it so difficult for him to get hit again? He simply got socked, he didn't let him do anything.
I said "pretty well" not "prefectly".
Originally posted by CreshoskWhat? Let one of your friends stand w fists in front of him(Give him knives to hold if it helps) Punch him in the side of the face(don't really punch him, especially if he's holding knives) You'll get it then.
But you don't see the claws at all Even a side shot to the head would have hit the claws since the claws were not all right in the front of wolvie's face.