Originally posted by Fire
Carbunclee READ THE BOOKS, ALL OF THEM THERE ARE TONS OF BOOKS ABOU Middle Earth, ALL HAVE INTERESTING FACTS
U see...thing's that i've got examinations ard the corner....so I'm not really interested in starting to read any of the 3 books yet....will start after all my papers are over and done with 🙂
Right, the Elves true time in Middle-Earth ended at the end of Second Age in the big battle we saw at the start of the first film. This was called the Last Alliance- not because man and Elf would never be friend again, but because after that battle the Elves would no longer exist as a true culture on Middle-Earth as the bulk of them would be going west.
It must be remembered that these lands to the West are the true home of MOST of these Elves. Some of them are descended from tjhose who only came back to Middle-Earth in an attempt to fight evil (and got stuck there longer than planned), some are descended from those who never made it out West- but ALWAYS intended to go there. Only a certain line of Elves (known as 'Avari', or 'Refusers'😉 never really had much interest in going.
This long delayed move back west occurred at the start of the Third Age. And it was conceptually important as well- the Third Age is the Age where MAN takes the lead, not Elves. And the Fourth Age to come after the War of the Ring is a modern age, where immortal creatures like the Elves no longer belong.
BUT. Some Elves did stay for the Third Age, of course. Some, like Galadriel, had particualr attachment to their homes. Elrond felt a responsibility for overseeing the fledgling human kingdoms since the disaster of the destruction of Numenor. Cirdan, I think, stayed in the Grey Havens just so he could oversee the transfer of Elves wishing to leave (Elves going west catch a boat from the Havens).
Eavh of these three Elven settlements, then, represents a bastion of the old times, settlements that no evil can touch until Sauron gets his Ring back where the old Elves still live. More importantly, each of these three took charge of one of the Three Elvish Rings. These Rings could not be brought west and SOMEONE, of course, had to look after them. It is on the power of these Rings that the security and power of the Elvish Havens was maintained- though to his credit, Cirdan simply gave his to Gandalf.
Now, when the One Ring is destroyed, that power goes. These last bastions of true Elvish power will fade without that power- and those Elves in them who stayed behind know that their time is finally come after all, and they must go. THIS is why the last of the Elves are making ready to leave at the time of the films.
However, there are a few exceptions. The High Elves (Noldor) may well be going, as will most of the Sindar (Grey Elves- pretty much the 'standard' Elf). However, there is still a Sindar Kingdom in the Mirkwood (of whom Legolas' father is King, who, btw, locked up the Dwarvves and Bilbo in The Hobbit) whose population have no reason to go- Legoloas only goes because he feels the calling of the sea but the rest have no need to. And there are plenty of Avari (most of whom are Silvan, or Wood Elves) around in the scattered forests (and also in the Mirkwood) who have no reason to go either. So there may yet be some remnant of the Elves, even though the suggestion is that the time for immortal beings on Middle-Earth has gone.
BTW, whilst a glimmer of future prediction is indeed a noted ability of powerful Elves (and even some Dunadain, such as Malbeth the Seer and even the father of Boromir and Faramir (didn't do him much good though)), when Elrond 'predicted' that Aragorn was going to die, he was only using his common sense- Aragorn is mortal!
hey ush, didnt celeborn stay in middle earth? somewhere i though i heard that he stayed in lorien for awhile then moved to rivendale where elronds sons remand, then who knows what. kind of makes no sense to me, hes got this supreme hottie and they are moving to live in a place of bliss and no worries, yet he stays in middle earth. i kind of think of the 4th age as the age that all the remaining races kind of fade out. the elves that are left over, the dwarves, ents, and the hobbits, leaving man the sole inhabiter of M.E.
Wow...great explanation from Ushgarak...I think I got confused by the movie actually....
In the theatrical release of LOTR:TTT..at the battle of helm's deep..it showed reinforcements in the form of elves led by Haldir arriving to aid the humans in the upcoming battle...but in actual fact this did not happen in the book did it? Was the battle of helm's deep in the book was fought by humans alone?
I think this is the part which confused me...cos I was wondering why the elves were talking about leaving and everything and then on the other hand send an army of elves to aid the humans at helm's deep...
No, in fact, in the book the elves did not come to the aid of Rohan in TTT. Another thing is that Eomer was already at Helm's Deep with Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli, Theoden and the few hundred men defending the fortress. Gandalf came with a different Rohan Lieutenant called Erkenbrand. Plus, the reinforcements were not on horses, but on foot. That's why it took so long for them to arrive. It was cool though in the movie to see all the horses riding down that steep slope, wasn't it?
The elves did not show up much in the books. In fact, the only elves we are seen to have fought are Legolas and Elrond's twin sons. However, the elves were not just sitting around doing nothing. Lothlorien was under constant attack, so they could not send any aid. Rivendell is but a small area. In fact, it's only the size of a city, so they could not afford to send aid. Keep in mind this is a middle-earth 'city', and not one like New York with 20 kadrillion ppl.
The elves are leaving because they have lingered in Middle earth too long already. They were summoned at the beginning of the First Age, and they have already stayed Two Ages too long, which is at least 6000+ years. As someone mentioned earlier, the Noldor came back to Middle-earth after going to Valinor (The only notable Noldarian elf left is Galadriel, thus why she is much wiser than all other elves. In comparison, she is an entire Age older than Elrond) However, after the deeds of the Men of Numenor in the early Second Age, Valinor was taken away from the circles of Arda (the world). That is why nobody can return from Valinor once they go there. It is also not a simple ship journey across to get there, but only elves are allowed to go since they have been called forth. Gimli got to go because he was best buds with Legolas, and Frodo had to go because he was a ringbearer, and the ring influenced him too much while he had it. Gandalf got to go because he is returning home to be a Maiar again.
I suggest that you all read the Silmarillion to truly gain an understanding of Middle Earth. If you do you will see that Sauron is really not much of a great and terrible enemy just the most terrible during the time period that the Lord of the Rings is set in. If you really want to see truly epic battles you'll find it in the Silmarillion because the Lord of the Rings is really just an epiloge to that story.
There is a common misconception going around that has been bothering me. Many people think that Middle Earth is the name of the entire world of the Lord of the Rings because it is stated many times in the book that Sauron will "Rule all of Middle Earth" but it is actually a part of the world that was orginally settled by the elves that left Valinor.
Some interesting facts for those of you who haven't read the Silmirallion:
1.Gandalfs actual name is Olorin.
2.Saruman's actual name is Curunir meaning man of skill.
3.Sauron was once a servant of an even greater evil Melkor or Morgoth as he was called by the elves.
4.The God of Middle Earth is Eru or Illuvatar. he created the Ainur including Melkor.
5.The wizards are actually the Istari, created by the Ainur and sent to Middle Earth to help the people defeat Sauron.
6.When Gandalfs returns in the Two Towers it is not clearly explained how. What happened was that when he died the Ainur gave him a new body and sent him back to Middle Earth.
7.Galadriel is Elrond's great aunt and mother-in-law.
8.If you have seen the movie you'll know how massive and powerful a Balrog is. Well just to give you an idea of the scope of the Silmarillion imagine a small army of Balrogs, well that's exactly what Melkor has.
9.For people who have read the LOTR but not the Silmarillion and know about shelob and how old and strong she is imagine her mother (whose name escapes me at the moment) who grew so powerful that Melkor was chased across Middle Earth by her and would have been killed until his Balrog's saved him.
That's right Hegemon875. I have read it =P and Unfinished Tales as well.
Those stories will 'enlighten' ppl and will show the bigger picture of the world. Each Age scales down in terms of heroism, power, and battles. Just think about the fifth great battle of the First Age, aka the Battle of Unnumbered Tears. It had, on the side of good:
1. Tens of thousands of Elves: all the Noldor that had returned to Middle Earth led by their princes.
2. Men: Had just started coming into their own in Beleriand and were allied with the elves.
3. Dwarves, although their numbers were limited compared to the elves.
On the side of evil, there were WAY more enemies than in lotr:
1. hundreds of thousands of orcs.
2. Evil men, and some were even originally allies of the elves, but turned on them once the battle got under way.
3. HUNDREDS of Balrogs, led by Gothmog the most powerful
4. Finally, big ugly Dragons, lead by the first Dragon Glaurung.
posted by aragorn1: "you know what i dont get is why people cant come back from valinor or grey havens?"
yeah the valar (gods) decreed the island of valinor (not the grey havens, which is the coastland in middle earth that leads to valinor)sealed off from anyone but the elves, cus o some dude who tried or did go there and wasnt sposed to in the early ages (don member his name or much ab the story)
gimli got to go not cus he was legolas's buddy, but cus galadriel put in a good word for him, since they got a (prolly unrequited-type)romance thingy goin awwwn..
also, since u b talkin ab the istari (the 5 wizards) and balrogs and sauron, just thought id mention those are all maiar, or angelic type beings that are right below the valar gods. the balrogs and sauron happen to be melkors corrupted servants, and the istari and some other ones mentioned as early deities to the people of middle earth are on the side of good. sauron was the strongest maiar, and knowing all this stuff also makes the fight between gandalf and the balrog all that more fascinating.
wow...i think i just spent 30 min. reading all of that!! 😊 oh well...i didn't know that the aid that was sent was on foot..i thought they had horses, but it took so long to get there because they were a LONG way away. i've all three LotR books..and i want to read the hobbit, and i've heard of the silmarillion..but never got around to reading it! 🙂 but thanks for informing me! 😄 some of the stuff in these movies/books are confusing just from the point of it gets into details i don't understand. and then to go along with that, the movies aren't consistant and don't explain enough, like the books. although, i don't mind staring at orlando bloom for 3 hours at a time!! 😍