Ok, we are getting a lot of 'superior attitude' posting by those who have read Unfinished Tales and ther Silmarillion- I think that can be toned down.
Especially by those who take them as totally factual. They are NOT. Christopher Tolkien specifies that they are Unfinished works (hence the name of the second one, yes?) and are only guidelines, not facts. Tolkien never intended them for publication and they were always in flux.
The Balrog number is a point in fact- a poster confidently asserts there were 'hundreds' of Balrogs. Incorrect- Turin wisely doubts it. Christopher Tolkien clearly states- factually and unequivocally- that his father decided on a final number of SEVEN. So before you start reeling off facts to people to look informed, people should check their own.
People need to be very, very wary about these things,. Even the Silmarillion is dodgy; and everything else other than the four main books is is almost entirely speculative.
wow, kind of a little harsh, but true. i dont know if it is a superior attitude just everybody is pretty confident in what they know. many things that people take as fact arent, due to as ush put it the constant state of flux all of it was in. basically the best way to approach this stuff is reader be wear, there are a lot of people that know there stuff here, but the best way is to find out on your own and supliment it with peoples knowledge in here. thats my opinion anyways. heres what i do (to cover my ass) whenever i state something i start off by saying i beleive, unless i have the books sitting right infront of me 🙂
Actually I got several other reasons why...from multiple sources.
First, the book source, I got is that the Elves in the east are seperated from their brethren.
They were not sent east, or such to defeat evil, they went east to defeat evil out of Pride, and Over-confidence.
And they fell, Evil bested them, they thought they won destroying morgoth (malkor?) and Sauron tricked them, binding them and the powers they brought, with the 3 rings to his.
This kinda ties in with my own theory...
I know most say Tolkein had no "allusions" to anything...but I think he did subconciously...bare with me here.
Tolkein was a linguist, he obviously loved language so much he made his own...(elvish), he also loved epic eulogies (death...not so much of people but of time, passing of time...or the passing of one culture to another, such as Beowulf).
So combine the two, and presto ... LotR.
A place where language is dying...and all that went with it is dying as well...
The elves, are dying...not in physical form, or spirit, but in existance in Middle Earth, and everything in middle earth that pertains to them is going with them.
The Ent Treebeard even says this when the two hobbits say they came from "lothlorien" and he says, "Ahh, the names, how they are shortening, I remember when the names were much longer....*he gives the much longer name of lothlorien*" (paraphrased)... contd...
...contd from above...
Anyways, so, the Elves are passing from Middle earth, it is often stated, "They pass to the west". So that is...another part of the euolgy...they die when they go west, die in a sense that is...they don't keel over and go to the grave but they go back from whence they came.
Kinda like man goes back to the earth ...
And so I think tolkein was kinda seeing the world as it is today.
Look at language today, it is by far less of an artform as it was 100 years ago, and especially as it was in the 1600s...
I think tolkein kinda put that subliminally or such into his writings...using the events of Middle Earth to show that.
As Elrond says, "I remember like it were yesterday, the banners as we fought morgoth, in all their splendor...then as we fought sauron, only the banners were not so splendid, and now, all the glory of the west is gone..."
The west came over with the Elves to Middle Earth, and it will return with them...leaving plain old Earth in its place...
Now that's not a truly acurate dipiction as the Silmarillion apparently changes some of those things...but I think that LotR in on its own, gives that feeling...
That with the passage of the elves, Middle Earth passes too...magic leaves, the Dwarves we know die out as a species...or are dying out that is...and when Arwen passes on...winter falls for the first time ever in lothlorien and that is the end of Middle Earth.
Could that be the end of "fantasy and myth" as tolkein sees it? The ultimate euolgy?
reason elves are leaving
RIGHT, callyourselves obbsessed and you dont know this. as you know rings were given out 2 3main races in middle earth, well the three rings of the elves, are hidden and it is them that keep rivindell and lorien everlasting, when the 1 ring is destroyed every other ring of power will also pass away, and all they have done will be undone. therfore lorien and rivindell will welt, the leaves will fall and beauty will fade, so the elves are leaving to go to the grey havens!!!!!
understand 😄 😄
Re: reason elves are leaving
Originally posted by sauron
RIGHT, callyourselves obbsessed and you dont know this. as you know rings were given out 2 3main races in middle earth, well the three rings of the elves, are hidden and it is them that keep rivindell and lorien everlasting, when the 1 ring is destroyed every other ring of power will also pass away, and all they have done will be undone. therfore lorien and rivindell will welt, the leaves will fall and beauty will fade, so the elves are leaving to go to the grey havens!!!!!understand 😄 😄
Not impressive for someone who comes in criticising others... the Grey Havens are one of the Elven Civilisations kept alive only by the power of the Elves that will also fade. It is the Undying Lands the Elves are heading for- they just catch a boat at the Grey Havens. Three Rings- three places.
i think gandalf left because he had done his job.
the wizards are sent to middle for the express purpose of helping man to fight against evil, a.k.a sauron.
but if that were true, was the wizards there during the first war against sauron in the second age? can anyone clarify that for me? when did they come to middle earth?