Tool

Originally posted by Afro Cheese
Ok I'll try my best to explain what I'm arguing here in a nutshell. You earlier stated that while hip hop production is manipulative creation, rock is creative creation. My only point was that all musicians do their fair share of manipulating, just not to the same obvious extent as hip hop producers. While rockers do have a more "from scratch" method of making music than hip hop producers, that doesn't mean their creativity doesn't involve manipulation.. Not just that "notes exist," that music theory has basically laid out the ground rules to developing melodies and writing songs. It is their job as artists to manipulate this system to create something new and original.

No you're wrong. It's not their job as artists to write songs by ground rules. There are no ground rules for making songs, hence why music is as flexible and fluid as it is. There are song structures (bars, chorus, melody lines, riffs etc. All the parts of a song) but bands don't have to do that. Notes, bars etc are just labels. One day in history, someone wrote a piece of music and then decided to call it a melody line or a bar, it wasn't called that by default. You're implying that the rules are inherent to the music when they aren't even rules, just something that someone made up a long time ago. Eg; Someone could make rules as to what makes a great metal song, it doesn't mean bands have to go by it.

It's a choice, hence why rock is the largest and most varied genre in music ever. They write however they want to. I'm not sure where you pulled this "There are rules" theory from. Hip hop doesn't have that. It's manipulation primarily. Rock is creative primarily.

Originally posted by Afro Cheese
I said it's NOT just a developed technique. That's part of it, but on top of that it does require talent.

Yeah, talent to learn how to produce, Which is easier to teach your average music fan on the street rather than guitar or drums.

-AC

well all i can say is that tool are a sic band who play really well and the singer has a mad voice and aenima and schism are the best!

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
No you're wrong. It's not their job as artists to write songs by ground rules. There are no ground rules for making songs, hence why music is as flexible and fluid as it is. There are song structures (bars, chorus, melody lines, riffs etc. All the parts of a song) but bands don't have to do that. Notes, bars etc are just labels. One day in history, someone wrote a piece of music and then decided to call it a melody line or a bar, it wasn't called that by default. You're implying that the rules are inherent to the music when they aren't even rules, just something that someone made up a long time ago. Eg; Someone could make rules as to what makes a great metal song, it doesn't mean bands have to go by it.

It's a choice, hence why rock is the largest and most varied genre in music ever. They write however they want to. I'm not sure where you pulled this "There are rules" theory from. Hip hop doesn't have that. It's manipulation primarily. Rock is creative primarily.

Yeah, talent to learn how to produce, Which is easier to teach your average music fan on the street rather than guitar or drums.

-AC

That's like me. I follow my own rules. I don't follow anyone elses rules. Not even my own.

😛

Serously though, rules are made to be broken. Music history teaches us this.

Originally posted by Red Superfly
That's like me. I follow my own rules. I don't follow anyone elses rules. Not even my own.

😛

Serously though, rules are made to be broken. Music history teaches us this.

Figured there would be at least some activity in this thread, considering 10,000 Days came out yesterday, but anyway...

The album is great and I'll need to listen to it about 10,000 times before I decide if it's Lateralus or Undertow caliber. One thing about the first single, Vicarious: It's a great song and I love the message, but it starts off like Dream Theater's New Millenium. That's all, but I guess hardly anything's truly original nowadays.

Originally posted by botankus
I guess hardly anything's truly original nowadays.

Yeah, because the rest of the album (and song) sounds like everything everyone else is doing, doesn't it?

-AC

Not sure what everything everyone else is doing has to do with something that's been done at least once before, but anyhow, the beginning is strikingly similar to New Millenium. That's all. The album's great.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Yeah, because the rest of the album (and song) sounds like everything everyone else is doing, doesn't it?

-AC

He only mentioned the intro of one song. He never said the rest of the album sounded like anything. I agree with him that most of the music put out today is less then original.

You're missing the point. Just because he feels the song's intro is similar to New Millenium, I don't see how that reflects on Tool being unoriginal.

It means he sees a similarity, others might not. Besides, that whole "Most of the music" thing is a bit of a stretch. Either way, it doesn't apply to Tool. They've only ever released 4 albums over more than a decade, all of which are extremely original in execution.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
No you're wrong. It's not their job as artists to write songs by ground rules. There are no ground rules for making songs, hence why music is as flexible and fluid as it is. There are song structures (bars, chorus, melody lines, riffs etc. All the parts of a song) but bands don't have to do that. Notes, bars etc are just labels. One day in history, someone wrote a piece of music and then decided to call it a melody line or a bar, it wasn't called that by default. You're implying that the rules are inherent to the music when they aren't even rules, just something that someone made up a long time ago. Eg; Someone could make rules as to what makes a great metal song, it doesn't mean bands have to go by it.

It's a choice, hence why rock is the largest and most varied genre in music ever. They write however they want to. I'm not sure where you pulled this "There are rules" theory from. Hip hop doesn't have that. It's manipulation primarily. Rock is creative primarily.

Yeah, talent to learn how to produce, Which is easier to teach your average music fan on the street rather than guitar or drums.

-AC

Originally posted by Tptmanno1
I seriously disagree with this point.
Rules MAKE music, music instead of noise.
Thats why music is half science and half art.
If you randomly throw stuff together without regard for time signature, key, chords, melodys ect.
it sounds bad.

Completely and utterly false, for a few reasons.

1) What sounds "bad" is subjective.

2) Fantômas make music with no rules at all and a lot of the time it does come out as noise. So what? It's not noise in a traditional sense. It's just extremely abstract.

Originally posted by Tptmanno1
Certian notes sound BAD together. It doesn't work right. They clash.
and you can't attempt to play anything that resembles the organization of music without the slightly blurred but still existant rules. For example, as chaotic as Vicarious sounds, its still in a clearly defined 5/4 key signature. Is that something you normally see? no. But its still following the basic rules of music.
There ARE ground rules, The chord structure, organizational factors. keys, stuff you can't make viable music without. and Tool DEFINITLY takes advantage of this and uses them. And if you know what your looking for you can tell. 2-5-1's ect. all very apparent in music.

To you. Let's remember that. They sound bad together...to you. The genius in say, Fantômas, is that regardless of it clashing, it sound brilliant.

Vicarious is chaotic to you because you're simply not used to anything more abstract. You're still relatively new to all this (relatively). I've got more to compare it to, and to me, it's not chaotic at all. It's extremely well organised.

Not quite sure what point you were making. There are base guidelines yes, but with enough ability you don't necessarily have to pay any mind to them.

-AC

Wah, Alrighty then. I found this thread today and read it all. Now from the beginning:

Yes I like Tool, no band can make me feel the way Tool does, and I still get things out of songs by them I've heard a million times.

My favorite cd of their's is Lateralus, I haven't heard 10,000 Days all the way through though, so....I can't be positive

I really like Radiohead, and I hold them up there with Tool, though as I said no band makes me feel the same way Tool does

As for the whole lyrics being just as important to music as music, that is in no way true. Everything I could say would most likely be a repeat of what Alpha said though, so I won't. Though I will give one obscure analogy, you have a hamburger(music), and condaments(sp)(lyrics) with it. Would you say the condaments are more important, or just as important to the hamburger? Of in this case lyrics to music.

And also as Alpha said not to be confused with singing, 'cause singing is more of the sound. Like take the song Right Round for me, I dislike the original, but I like it done by Dope, because his voice SOUNDS so much better, though that is my opinion that his voice sounds better than the original performer. But I am saying they both sing the same lyrics but I like one for the sound better.

And in rock there aren't really extremely defined lines, it's more of a feeling than a science. The band The Flaming Lips doesn't seem to follow the "rules"

I think I missed a lot of things I wanted to comment on, but oh well. And reading this whole debate was nice because you all do it in an intellegent fashion, which is how it should be. The other day in class I was listening to Radiohead very quietly and people said it sucked, so I put my headphones on, and they were still saying it and also said that it didn't deserve to be called music, and that I didn't know music. I simply asked well give me a reason for that and I'll discuss it with you. And they couldn't

Vicarious video should be coming out in August. Or thats what i have heard. If anyone has heard anything else, please explain.

I've been waiting for that, havent seen one so I was assuming they just...didnt make onesrug

Why are they releasing it so late?

I think its a regular release date. Actually, there is no set release date. But i'm glad that they're taking their time. Which they do on most videos.

Adam said it's way overdue but there are much more important things going on, and not to expect it for a while.

-AC

But damn, am i excited. ✅

Tool is amazing.. I love their new CD. It took me a little while to get into it, but after I listened to it a few times I started loving it more and more.. its hypnotic, and complex. Its almost like every song is a story. Every album they make is so unique. The depth of the lyrics and music grasps me.

That's cool, this is my first news of it. Should be interesting.

.. seriously?