I don't think Tool are so much pretentious as they are intimidating. Those that think they're being ostentatious with their music comes think such because of fans who tend to overexagerrate the bands intellect. Tool aren't forcing their philosophy down your throat, they're not claiming to be decendents of Freud, either. They're just a band with a unique sound and philosophical stance. You're not expected to appreciate it. If you do, it's a bonus. If you don't, it's not a reason to assume that it's because their lyrics or music come off as more self important and "bigger" than they really are.
Originally posted by tabby999
What about Tool isn't?
If you can't answer my question correctly, don't attempt to.
I asked you or anyone to give me specific reasons as to why Tool are pretentious, in the correct sense of the word, not what you think it means.
What Cine said is more or less right.
Tool aren't taking the stance of "We're really, really important.", even if they think what they do is important. They see themselves as catalysts for people to use their music and interpret it however they wish. Their fans are the ones who put them on the pedestal, not the band. The band love what they do, and Maynard has said that he feels that not many bands try to be exceptional and be a part of a higher standard or consciousness, so they try to, but he's never actually said "WE ARE..." anything.
He actually said in Metal Hammer once, not verbatim: "If people come up to me and say something like 'Hey man, I'm waiting for your new cd! You guys are my life!' then I appreciate it but I think that guy needs more to focus on in life. We're just a band.". If you truly knew about Tool you would get that they would prefer not to be focused on themselves, but what they do.
The thing is, most people are either upset that they aren't part of the Tool experience (And you're not necessarily part of it just because you like Tool either), or they know that Tool are as good as some of the fans say, and just refuse to admit it.
Tool aren't pretentious in the true sense of the word.
-AC
Its true, lets look at them element by element.
Music - i have stated that they are talented musicians. i agree with you. but when they clutter up songs with unnecessary sounds, they ruin it. having something small for the eagle eared to notice is fine, but in the end, you can't polish a turd.
Lyrics - i agree telling a story and having something to say is important, but when you write songs where every second line is some abstract line of thought or chocker block with hidden meaning, you can't effectively tell the original story. Like someone said before, are they going to be giving away degrees with their next release?
Album art - i'm sorry but if you look at 10,000 Days or Lateralus (in particular) and dont think "indulgent wank fest" then you never will.
Shows - Maynard giving press 3 songs to take photos in with no flash so they dont ruin their "ambiance," the band spending the set in the dark, talk about alienation from the audience. Atleast when Radiohead and Sigur Ros are pretentious they let us in on the fun.
I think this sums up the problem for me, when Tool toured Aus (not with BDO, the tour before) a letter in Blunt told of a Tool fan walking in Melbourne when he see's Maynard walking towards him. The fan puts his hand up to shake Maynards and thank him for the show the night before. Before he could, 4 "minders" promptly shunted him into a wall and searched him as Maynard kept going. Wanker.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Tool aren't taking the stance of "We're really, really important.", even if they think what they do is important.
ah so they're not important until...
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
They see themselves as catalysts for people to use their music and interpret it however they wish. Their fans are the ones who put them on the pedestal, not the band. The band love what they do, and Maynard has said that he feels that not many bands try to be exceptional and be a part of a higher standard or consciousness, so they try to, but he's never actually said "WE ARE..." anything.-AC
I'm sorry AC, but that statement right there makes them sound even worse. But it might be a good point for your argument; "Tool arn't pretentious, but their fans sure are."
Originally posted by tabby999
Its true, lets look at them element by element.Music - i have stated that they are talented musicians. i agree with you. but when they clutter up songs with unnecessary sounds, they ruin it. having something small for the eagle eared to notice is fine, but in the end, you can't polish a turd.
Them having elements in their music that you do not like or feel are unnecessary does not make them pretentious. It makes them a band you don't like, please look up the definition.
Originally posted by tabby999
Lyrics - i agree telling a story and having something to say is important, but when you write songs where every second line is some abstract line of thought or chocker block with hidden meaning, you can't effectively tell the original story. Like someone said before, are they going to be giving away degrees with their next release?
If you're simply not smart enough to get what they're on about or the subject matter that they reference, then that's your problem. How does it make them pretentious? It makes them exclusive, an acquired taste, it doesn't make them pretentious.
Also, Tool lyrics aren't about telling a story. They have a meaning to Maynard, but he has said he doesn't want people to hunt down what it means to him, he wants them to get whatever they want out of the lyrics. The meaning isn't hidden, the meaning is whatever you get out of it.
I love that, though. Implying you need a degree to enjoy Tool lyrics but then saying "...but it's not cos I'm not smart enough.".
Originally posted by tabby999
Album art - i'm sorry but if you look at 10,000 Days or Lateralus (in particular) and dont think "indulgent wank fest" then you never will.
Why? Because they take pride in presenting their music in something other than just another plastic case? They're artists, and it's not limited to music. They have visions and they have the means to make their ideas become a reality to share with people who appreciate it. How is that a "wank fest", or a better question; When did it become bad to be indulgent about your own work? They're doing this for themselves, as every single artist should.
Originally posted by tabby999
Shows - Maynard giving press 3 songs to take photos in with no flash so they dont ruin their "ambiance," the band spending the set in the dark, talk about alienation from the audience. Atleast when Radiohead and Sigur Ros are pretentious they let us in on the fun.
Ahh, so not only are you misinterpreting the meaning of pretentious, like an idiot, but you are feeling left out, just as I said was the problem.
For the record, Maynard doesn't use that as his excuse. He believes it's rather ignorant that they are there trying to put on a show for YOU and you keep flashing cameras in their faces. It's also said that Maynard has light sensitive pupils.
The fact of the matter is, Tool play in "the dark" because it's not about them, it's about the fans enjoying what they do, the music, the experience. If you're in it for Maynard or the members of the band, then you're in it for the wrong reasons.
I don't go to the shows to see their faces, I go to enjoy the experience.
Originally posted by tabby999
I think this sums up the problem for me, when Tool toured Aus (not with BDO, the tour before) a letter in Blunt told of a Tool fan walking in Melbourne when he see's Maynard walking towards him. The fan puts his hand up to shake Maynards and thank him for the show the night before. Before he could, 4 "minders" promptly shunted him into a wall and searched him as Maynard kept going. Wanker.
How often do you shake hands with strangers? Thought not.
Why is he now obligated to shake hands with you? He tours the world putting on shows for people, extravagent shows, shows unlike any other band, he isn't obligated to shake your hand.
If this is something that bothers you, fine, but it still doesn't make Tool pretentious. It makes them a band you don't like or understand (Yes, that is indeed the case).
Originally posted by tabby999
I'm sorry AC, but that statement right there makes them sound even worse. But it might be a good point for your argument; "Tool arn't pretentious, but their fans sure are."
I don't care what it makes them sound like. You haven't proven that they are pretentious, you've proven you don't like them and that you don't understand them. You've proven the latter by misinterpreting what they do and why they do it.
Pretentious? Try ignorant. Ignorant is looking at a band, saying "They do this, this and this." and assuming you're instantly correct. Then again, you do like Evanescence, so I can't really expect anything of you.
-AC
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I love that, though. Implying you need a degree to enjoy Tool lyrics but then saying "...but it's not cos I'm not smart enough."
I didn't say i wasn't smart enough, you did. What was that, cos it sounded an awful lot like AC putting words into my mouth...
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Ahh, so not only are you misinterpreting the meaning of pretentious, like an idiot, but you are feeling left out, just as I said was the problem.
Ah you hit the nail on the head, i didn't write this because i think tool are over indulgent pretentious wankers, i wrote it because i'm hurting on the inside, because i'm "left out." leave the psudo-intellectualism to Maynard, atleast he knows how to sell it.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
For the record, Maynard doesn't use that as his excuse. He believes it's rather ignorant that they are there trying to put on a show for YOU and you keep flashing cameras in their faces. It's also said that Maynard has light sensitive pupils.
Ah so we the public, who put the man on the stage, who buy the tickets and albums and shirts and dvds, we're not entitled to a show? If they're not putting the show on for the fans, then its for themselves and that makes them self indulgent, pretentious wankers. Oh and pupils are light sensitive irrelevant, some peoples are worse but even Bono figured out that light tinged sunnies fix that problem. And really, the photog's wouldn't need the flashes if tool stopped poncing about and turned on the lights.
The idea they play in the dark so people appreciate the music, not the image (if you will), works fine, but if your going to go about it that way, they can't expect the press (you know, the people who advertise and make them more money) just to no take pictures. Can't have your cake and eat it too.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
How often do you shake hands with strangers? Thought not.Why is he now obligated to shake hands with you? He tours the world putting on shows for people, extravagent shows, shows unlike any other band, he isn't obligated to shake your hand.
People dont come up to shake my hand but people also dont fill my bank account with money. And i think the fact that he tours and puts on these shows is the reason he should take the time to be atleast amiable, if it wasn't for the guy trying to shake his hand and all his mates, would Maynard be touring around putting on these shows "unlike any other band"? Hell no. He isn't "obligated," it was more that he ignored 4 minders throwning someone who was obviously a fan into a wall.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I don't care what it makes them sound like. You haven't proven that they are pretentious, you've proven you don't like them and that you don't understand them. You've proven the latter by misinterpreting what they do and why they do it.Pretentious? Try ignorant. Ignorant is looking at a band, saying "They do this, this and this." and assuming you're instantly correct. Then again, you do like Evanescence, so I can't really expect anything of you.
-AC
Ah and there it is. The old "you just dont understand" argument. I think once again, your as guilty as anyone for assuming your correct, waving that Simple Plan style argument around again after all this time, tisk tisk tisk.
Oh and as for Evanescence, isn't bringing in irrelevant (and incorrect) information the last move of a desperate man. What next "your shoes smell?"
Originally posted by tabby999People dont come up to shake my hand but people also dont fill my bank account with money. And i think the fact that he tours and puts on these shows is the reason he should take the time to be atleast amiable, if it wasn't for the guy trying to shake his hand and all his mates, would Maynard be touring around putting on these shows "unlike any other band"? Hell no.
I think the gigs and cds are what the money is paying for. You don't buy something in a shop and then expect the man to come out for a drink, do you?
It's because people decide to hero-worship artists they like- which is exactly what the band do not want- that they retain that distance; and that is clearly an attempt to remain humble.
Which, if we all thought ahead, is the opposite of pretension.
You will probably repeat the '4 minders' anecdote, though it sounds like bullshit to me. Unless of course you have proof.