Tool

Originally posted by tabby999
I didn't say i wasn't smart enough, you did. What was that, cos it sounded an awful lot like AC putting words into my mouth...

I know I said you weren't smart enough.

Originally posted by tabby999
Ah you hit the nail on the head, i didn't write this because i think tool are over indulgent pretentious wankers, i wrote it because i'm hurting on the inside, because i'm "left out." leave the psudo-intellectualism to Maynard, atleast he knows how to sell it.

Such jealousy and bitterness, it's sad.

Pseudo-intellectualism? Are you now going so far as to say Maynard is faking being smart? Are you that desperate for an anti-Tool argument?

I'm waiting on the proof that they are pretentious.

Originally posted by tabby999
Ah so we the public, who put the man on the stage, who buy the tickets and albums and shirts and dvds, we're not entitled to a show? If they're not putting the show on for the fans, then its for themselves and that makes them self indulgent, pretentious wankers. Oh and pupils are light sensitive irrelevant, some peoples are worse but even Bono figured out that light tinged sunnies fix that problem. And really, the photog's wouldn't need the flashes if tool stopped poncing about and turned on the lights.

Excuse me? The public put the man on stage? You're putting the cart before the horse. Tool have fans because they became a band, they didn't become a band to have fans. Tool existed before they had any fans, so drop the whole "The fans make the artist" bullshit theory, please.

You keep calling them indulgent as if it's a bad thing. What's more pretentious in the TRUE sense of the word; A band putting on a show like Tool, or a group of idiots like you sitting there saying "We put you there, you do what we say."?

Exactly. Nothing wrong with being self-indulgent, the fans obviously love Tool's self-indulgent output, so there's no reason for them to cater to anybody but themselves, as every artist should. You, however, are sitting there saying "I'm the one who made you, entertain me, not yourself.". That is genuinely pretentious, sitting there with some elevated, undeserved sense of importance.

Originally posted by tabby999
The idea they play in the dark so people appreciate the music, not the image (if you will), works fine, but if your going to go about it that way, they can't expect the press (you know, the people who advertise and make them more money) just to no take pictures. Can't have your cake and eat it too.

A) Why else would you buy a cake? To look at it?

B) Yes, they can. They have every right to have their privacy respected. As VVD said, it's not their fault that the public go mental over people, not art.

C) They may not be able to expect the press or fans to adhere to such a simple request, as zealous as they are, but they don't have to like the fact that they're ignoring it.

Originally posted by tabby999
People dont come up to shake my hand but people also dont fill my bank account with money. And i think the fact that he tours and puts on these shows is the reason he should take the time to be atleast amiable, if it wasn't for the guy trying to shake his hand and all his mates, would Maynard be touring around putting on these shows "unlike any other band"? Hell no. He isn't "obligated," it was more that he ignored 4 minders throwning someone who was obviously a fan into a wall.

Tool do those shows because they can, you think that it's honestly how they've always played? Tool played in clubs, just like any other band. Sweaty, dingy clubs, touring with the likes of The Rollins Band. They didn't try to achieve the status they're now at, the fans thrust the money upon them because Tool are that good. Why are Tool obligated to now do stuff for YOU because you gave them money? It was your choice to do that, they didn't ask for it.

If they were saying "Please come to our shows so we can keep up this lifestyle.", then fine, but they're not. That's precisely why Maynard and Tool keep humble, believe it or not. Because if the fickle human fanbase decided one day that Tool were not their thing, Tool wouldn't suffer. They don't lead lifestyles that needs to be supported by the money they earn, they all had jobs before Tool, good jobs. So don't act like the people have made them what they are. They choose to be Tool and people choose to pay them for it. They give you music and shows, you give them money. They needn't do any more.

Originally posted by tabby999
Ah and there it is. The old "you just dont understand" argument. I think once again, your as guilty as anyone for assuming your correct, waving that Simple Plan style argument around again after all this time, tisk tisk tisk.

You don't though. I'm not saying that as a knee-jerk reaction, the things you have said about Tool, their mannerisms as artists and the reasons they do what they do are completely wrong, off-point and stupid. You are the one making me feel you don't get it.

Originally posted by tabby999
Oh and as for Evanescence, isn't bringing in irrelevant (and incorrect) information the last move of a desperate man. What next "your shoes smell?"

It wasn't the "last move" of anyone. I have plenty of correct and satisfactory ammo to continue this debate.

-AC

Originally posted by Kram3r
OMFG! I finally figured out where you're from! 😱

lyk were dood? herbeyes

Just got back from concert. 🙂

One of the best performances I've seen, played all the songs I wanted to hear, had an awesome visual display...very cool stuff. Only bad part was Maynard facing the back of the stage the whole time except when he thanked the crowd etc....I mean shit, paying $120, standing outside for 3 hours in 40C heat for a good spot, and dont even get to see the dude's face. 😬 But Ill see them again at the end of the year for sure. 👆

This is precisely why Maynard stands at the back, because people paying $120 and being disappointed with not seeing his face are people he doesn't necessarily want at his shows.

Spend your money on a concert with guys you can look at that won't give you half the show Tool will.

-AC

Or they could stick a cd player on and blast that instead, we wont see the guy either way. Or next time the audience could turn around and not face them, they could play to our backs, they can save money by not doing fancy visual displays cause thats not why we came. Would be nice to actually see who's playing the music, for goodness sake why come all the way over to another country and have a bunch of fans paying good money to see you play live, then just face the wall

Originally posted by Mišt
Or they could stick a cd player on and blast that instead, we wont see the guy either way. Or next time the audience could turn around and not face them, they could play to our backs, they can save money by not doing fancy visual displays cause thats not why we came. Would be nice to actually see who's playing the music, for goodness sake why come all the way over to another country and have a bunch of fans paying good money to see you play live, then just face the wall

To be cool?

Which wouldnt happen if your fans didnt buy your cds and go to your shows and basically give you the money that you live off, and you cant even look at them in return...but okermm

Originally posted by Mišt
Which wouldnt happen if your fans didnt buy your cds and go to your shows and basically give you the money that you live off, and you cant even look at them in return...but okermm

Well, but some fans seem to appreciate it...like AC.

I personally don't follow that, I like to see the artist too....or I think I would.

I have seen tool 4 times, every time I got to seen Maynard’s face but that’s because I got pit tickets.

Most bands can't perform the music that is on there cd's live because they suck and the only reason they sound good is because of the studio. Tool isn't like that at all. They music songs even better live than on the album, and sometimes you get a little something special when you go, the last time I went it was Danny’s birth day and they did a bad ass version of no quarter.

They also had a show in a tiny club in phoenix last year, the club only held a few thousand people and the tickets were 95 bucks. I didn't get to go but I was told it was one of there greatest performances they played for 2 1/2 hours.

I find there music brilliant and refreshing from all the other mindless crap that floating around the world today. If you don't like tool that’s fine one less person trying to get my pit tickets.

By "pit" do you mean "floor"? I sure hope so, because moshing at a Tool show is like actually listening to the music at a Slayer show.

Originally posted by Mišt
Or they could stick a cd player on and blast that instead, we wont see the guy either way. Or next time the audience could turn around and not face them, they could play to our backs, they can save money by not doing fancy visual displays cause thats not why we came. Would be nice to actually see who's playing the music, for goodness sake why come all the way over to another country and have a bunch of fans paying good money to see you play live, then just face the wall

"We"?

I go to hear the music being played live. I'm not saying it's not cool to see the people playing it, but it shouldn't matter. Either way, you can actually see the band members, all the time. You just can't see Maynard's face, and why would you need to?

To use your argument against you, take a picture of Maynard with you to a show and look at that instead.

Maynard never faces the wall, he always faces the crowd, and it's only since the Lateralus tour that he's even been shrouded most of the time. They used to play like any other band on stage, save for Maynard painting himself.

Originally posted by Mišt
Which wouldnt happen if your fans didnt buy your cds and go to your shows and basically give you the money that you live off, and you cant even look at them in return...

Exactly. They give you CDs, amazing music and shows, you give them money for it. You gain something, they gain something.

They don't ask for more than they deserve, why are you bitching about not seeing the man's face? Precisely like you said. They flew across the planet to put on an amazing show for you and you walked away feeling let down that you didn't see one of the band's faces. How ungrateful can you get?

-AC

I went to mostly see the music that i've listend too. I wasn't let down, due to the fact that they put on a great visual show as a great musical show.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
"We"?

I go to hear the music being played live. I'm not saying it's not cool to see the people playing it, but it shouldn't matter. Either way, you can actually see the band members, all the time. You just can't see Maynard's face, and why would you need to?

"We" the audience, the people who were there yesterday.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
To use your argument against you, take a picture of Maynard with you to a show and look at that instead.

Because I didnt pay to look at a photo, I paid to see the band members. Thats kinda the point of going to a live show.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Maynard never faces the wall, he always faces the crowd, and it's only since the Lateralus tour that he's even been shrouded most of the time. They used to play like any other band on stage, save for Maynard painting himself.

Well he faced the wall. Im pretty sure, cause I could see his back the whole time.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Exactly. They give you CDs, amazing music and shows, you give them money for it. You gain something, they gain something.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
They don't ask for more than they deserve, why are you bitching about not seeing the man's face?

Originally posted by Mišt
I mean shit, paying $120, standing outside for 3 hours in 40C heat for a good spot

The point of getting a good spot? To see the band. I could have sat in the grandstand and just listened, but no, I wanted to see them. Seeing Maynard's back isnt exactly on my 'Awesome things I've seen' list.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Precisely like you said. They flew across the planet to put on an amazing show for you and you walked away feeling let down that you didn't see one of the band's faces. How ungrateful can you get?

-AC

Originally posted by Mišt
One of the best performances I've seen, played all the songs I wanted to hear, had an awesome visual display...very cool stuff.

Originally posted by Mišt
But Ill see them again at the end of the year for sure. 👆

Originally posted by Mišt
Only bad part

Maybe you're not getting the point of all this, having someone face their back to you the whole time, well to me that says 'I dont care about what's behind me' or 'You dont matter enough for me to look at you', and as you said before:

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
...and being disappointed with not seeing his face are people he doesn't necessarily want at his shows.

Maynard doesnt get to pick who goes to his shows or not, but regardless there are people who made the effort to go. Which comes off as a bit rude, there are people paying good money and coming to see his shows and he doesnt look at them. Maybe thats his thing, I dunno, whatever, thats the point Im making which has gone on longer than necessary. I had a gripe with the show, thats my problem, you dont have to come to the man's defence everytime someone comments about him.

Originally posted by Captain Maynard
I went to mostly see the music that i've listend too. I wasn't let down, due to the fact that they put on a great visual show as a great musical show.

Keyword: See. You didnt go to see a visual display with music, you went to see the band.

If I were there, I would have taken that as A) a sign of disrespect and/or B) someone pretty much saying they don't need me to fuel their drive to perform.

Originally posted by Mišt
Or they could stick a cd player on and blast that instead, we wont see the guy either way. Or next time the audience could turn around and not face them, they could play to our backs, they can save money by not doing fancy visual displays cause thats not why we came. Would be nice to actually see who's playing the music, for goodness sake why come all the way over to another country and have a bunch of fans paying good money to see you play live, then just face the wall

Originally posted by Bardock42
To be cool?

I think you got it right there, buster.

Originally posted by Mišt
Because I didnt pay to look at a photo, I paid to see the band members. Thats kinda the point of going to a live show.

To you. Did you not consider that you might be going there to get something they don't give out? You're at cross purposes. They don't perform so you can see THEM, it's not about them. Therefore, if you go with the intention of seeing THEM, it's your fault.

Originally posted by Mišt
The point of getting a good spot? To see the band. I could have sat in the grandstand and just listened, but no, I wanted to see them. Seeing Maynard's back isnt exactly on my 'Awesome things I've seen' list.

Maybe you're not getting the point of all this, having someone face their back to you the whole time, well to me that says 'I dont care about what's behind me' or 'You dont matter enough for me to look at you', and as you said before:

Maynard doesnt get to pick who goes to his shows or not, but regardless there are people who made the effort to go. Which comes off as a bit rude, there are people paying good money and coming to see his shows and he doesnt look at them. Maybe thats his thing, I dunno, whatever, thats the point Im making which has gone on longer than necessary. I had a gripe with the show, thats my problem, you dont have to come to the man's defence everytime someone comments about him.

If Maynard could pick he'd probably pick people who understand what him and the band want to do and respect that. He didn't ask you to attend, he didn't promise you anything you didn't get.

There are people playing good money to go to his shows for the music and the effort of the band, he pays attention to what they want, not what people coming to see his face want. Why? Because those fans and the band want the same thing.

Originally posted by Mišt
"Keyword: See. You didnt go to see a visual display with music, you went to see the band.

No, you did. I go to for the experience. I couldn't care less if I see their faces or not.

-AC

Originally posted by Mišt
Just got back from concert. 🙂

One of the best performances I've seen, played all the songs I wanted to hear, had an awesome visual display...very cool stuff. Only bad part was Maynard facing the back of the stage the whole time except when he thanked the crowd etc....I mean shit, paying $120, standing outside for 3 hours in 40C heat for a good spot, and dont even get to see the dude's face. 😬 But Ill see them again at the end of the year for sure. 👆

Why do you want to see his face? He just looks like some short dude.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
To you. Did you not consider that you might be going there to get something they don't give out? You're at cross purposes. They don't perform so you can see THEM, it's not about them. Therefore, if you go with the intention of seeing THEM, it's your fault.

I like to see the people performing, if I just wanted to hear them I would have bought a cd, and slapped on a media player visualisation and just pretended it was their show. Seeing them play is also something they dont give out. Its not everyday you can go out and see one of your favourite bands play live.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
If Maynard could pick he'd probably pick people who understand what him and the band want to do and respect that. He didn't ask you to attend, he didn't promise you anything you didn't get.

There are people playing good money to go to his shows for the music and the effort of the band, he pays attention to what they want, not what people coming to see his face want. Why? Because those fans and the band want the same thing.

No, you did. I go to for the experience. I couldn't care less if I see their faces or not.

-AC

Well, he cant pick, and different people go for different reasons, theres no requirement to see them play. If I want to blow my money and just stand there with my eyes closed and listen, thats my choice. If I want to get into it and see the whole show as its meant to be, thats my choice again.

As I've already said, the rest of the show was good, it wasnt my SOLE intention of going just to see his face. I just found that a minor annoyance and everybody's picking up on it? Geez, cant even make a complaint. Last I checked, 'Thou shalt not complain after going to a Tool concert' wasn't a commandment.

Thats your reason for going, I have mine, we're both entitled to see the band however we want to see them. You could sit at home, set up a nice light show, and crank their cds if you only wanted the experience and still get the same enjoyment, but part of the experience for me is seeing the band play.

Originally posted by BackFire
Why do you want to see his face? He just looks like some short dude.

Better than seeing his back? As I said before, I just took it as being a bit rude...an 11 hour music festival filled with bands who play to the audience and then having him at the end face his back to everyone the whole time...if thats how he plays, then fine, next time I go (and I will go again because I enjoyed it) at least Ill know what to expect and wont be put off by it.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
They don't ask for more than they deserve, why are you bitching about not seeing the man's face? Precisely like you said. They flew across the planet to put on an amazing show for you and you walked away feeling let down that you didn't see one of the band's faces. How ungrateful can you get?

-AC

Ungrateful? The guy payed $120. He's completely within his rites to pick out faults, he enjoyed the show, he'll see them again, can he not hold a single criticism for a show he payed to see? It's not like Tool are perfect.

Originally posted by §P0oONY
Ungrateful? The guy payed $120. He's completely within his rites to pick out faults, he enjoyed the show, he'll see them again, can he not hold a single criticism for a show he payed to see? It's not like Tool are perfect.

He payed $120 to see a man's face, essentially. He deserves to be let down.

Originally posted by Mišt
I like to see the people performing, if I just wanted to hear them I would have bought a cd, and slapped on a media player visualisation and just pretended it was their show. Seeing them play is also something they dont give out. Its not everyday you can go out and see one of your favourite bands play live.

That's your problem, it's not Tool's fault you go there with aesthetic hopes that they don't promise to uphold. They don't owe it to you, believe it or not.

Originally posted by Mišt
As I've already said, the rest of the show was good, it wasnt my SOLE intention of going just to see his face. I just found that a minor annoyance and everybody's picking up on it? Geez, cant even make a complaint. Last I checked, 'Thou shalt not complain after going to a Tool concert' wasn't a commandment.

Last time I checked it wasn't a commandment not to be able to disagree with someone and say so on a discussion board. It just happens to be about Tool with you making an absolutely ludicrous point.

Originally posted by Mišt
You could sit at home, set up a nice light show, and crank their cds if you only wanted the experience and still get the same enjoyment, but part of the experience for me is seeing the band play.

A) I'm assuming you don't go to many shows.

B) Possible the silliest thing you've said. You can't mimic a live show with sound only, but it doesn't take vision. Live albums don't emulate the experience, and it has nothing to do with seeing them, because then so would live videos.

-AC