Originally posted by Dinalfos
No, it took him ten years to dig himself out because he wasn't supposed to have "unlimited strength". It smells like something that was made up by the writer, so that he could "match" the Hulk.
Yet way back in Hulk #172 Juggernaut was able to match Hulk. That is a really old comic. The 'unlimited strength' is only, what?, 12 years old? Besides, have you ever seen Juggernaut in a hurry to get many places? He walks and nothing, a mountain of rubble, the Atlantic, nothing was going to stop him.
I agree, when the mountain collapsed around Juggernaut in a shower of loose rubble, he should've been able to clear it away with a single thunder clap. But look how surprised he was when he defeated GenNext(?) with it. Its just something that didn't cross his mind until recently.
He could've leapt out of the rubble to but its just something that doesn't cross a lot of minds. Wonderman has always had the strength to super leap, from his inception, but the only reason he started doing it in his own series, decades later, was because he was without his belt jets in one issue and thought 'well if Hulk can do it...'
Two examples of someone with sufficient strenghth capable of doing something, just not doing it because it never crossed their minds.
Man, Cain was quite eloquent back in the day! (re:172)
Originally posted by Accel
*sigh*"There is no force stronger than the Hulk."
http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/8582/featsflameoflife1c6gm.jpg
Try selling that to the Celestials, or even Mangog (another vs thread).
Originally posted by TheDecider
If Juggernaut cant KO the Hulk with Physical strength then no one can. So apparently now according to Hulk fans, Hulk cannot be Koed. Forget about it happening before right.
well this is pretty much what the people that are voteing for hulk are saying and if they deny it i would really hate to go digging up all the old treads. they say He-Man cant ko him or Superman cant ko him. so pretty much everybody who fights hulk cant beat him.
it must be like another power hulk has altogether. i think its called Super Bull $hit
Should've waited until I caught up completely on the 30+pgs in one day... 😆
Originally posted by Dinalfos
And you're telling me you're not a fanboy? Sheesh.I'm not upset. Anyway, more arguing, less bickering.
And no, it wasn't clear at all. The only thing that was clear is that the Hulk was drawing powers from two dimensions(all by himself!), which made him stronger. Your argument doesn't make sense, because the Hulk has ALWAYS been drawing strength from another universe, just like everybody else on earth with major physical powers. Really, you are now grasping at straws. What happened on panel was blatantly clear.
Can some Hulk fan clear this up. Quite a few pages back (380/1) I stated the Hulk drew strength from another dimension. I assumed that dimension/universe was analagous (sp?), but was told that this is incorrect. Now you say that this has always been the case.
Which is correct?
Also, the only thing that was clear in that comic was stated in the word balloons. Apocalypse set up the fight to test the might of Celestial technology against the X-Men's most powerful non-mutant foe. Hulk's strength didn't really matter except that it allowed to hang with 'naut in the first place. Celestials supercede most cosmics and apparently even those on the level of the other dimensional Vishanti.
Originally posted by Dinalfos
They "CURRENTLY" (yes, currently!) believe that Juggernaut is stronger than Hulk, because Prof Hulk isn't the strongest character in the Marvel Universe.Currently meaning anno 1994.
The year is irrelevant. All Hulks have the same max strength level, some have a lower base, or gain strength at a different rate however.
Originally posted by Accel
He's also broken a device that could withstand attacks from Celestials, lit up universe with a punch, shook the multiverse with a punch, etc.The mountain feat is his most famous one, but Hulk's done some truly insane stuff in the past.
Has the device actually withstood and attack from the Celestials? I ask because the Asgardian Destroyer was designed to defeat Celestials and was found horribly wanting, even empowered by all Asgardians save Thor.
Originally posted by Apolloknight
I remember Gilgamesh said Black panther was the fastest man he ever saw. Man I guess Quicksilver doesnt stand a chance 🙄
Ha! I wonder does he count fellow Eternal Makari as a man either?
FWIW: I don't think the current Juggernaut in New Excalibur is at classic level either. He almost drowned (ie was breathing like mere mortals) in #3 didn't he.
That one-armed Thor had the Odin-force, even if it was damped down by that glowing necklace, which he easily ripped away as soon as his son was safe, obviously not much of a deterrant so... I wouldn't count that fight against Hulk.
Originally posted by Black Dude
The sheild only works while he's moving I beleive and the sheild only stops harm it doesn't stop hulk from throwing him over the pacific ocean.
Nope, it stopped Thor's hammer while Juggernaut was standing still and prevented Spider-Man's webbing from touching him. IIRC the latter was when he was trying to kill Madame Webb...andbeforeheaccidentallywalkedintowetcement 🙁
Originally posted by bigbran
what? when does hulk bfr, the man is a brawler.
Hulk#172. And Juggernaut was only 50' away!
Originally posted by Accel
See, that's shallow thinking right there. His powerset is almost EXACTLY the same as Hulk's, so what does the origin matter? How do his powers "trump" Hulk's powers?
I agree, Thanos said it best vs Odin that power is power.
Originally posted by Accel
Thor has never shown to be above Surfer and Juggernaut has never shown to be above Hulk. 😉
Surfer's never defeat Thor one-on-one IIRC, he's always lost. Back in 60's even after Loki attempted to give him a power boost and even as recently as Blood and Thunder.
Originally posted by Accel
Well, Marvel has had several groups of editors over the years, so what if the opion kept chanigng? Also, they stated the general opinion, meaning some believed otherwise. What about those editors as well, that didn't believe Juggernaut was stronger? Do you see the flaw in basing your whole argument off of that one letter, rather than TONS of comics and other writers?
Good point. Did they not believe that 'naut was stronger or that he doesn't have limitless strength?
Originally posted by lft4ded
Yet way back in Hulk #172 Juggernaut was able to match Hulk. That is a really old comic. The 'unlimited strength' is only, what?, 12 years old? Besides, have you ever seen Juggernaut in a hurry to get many places? He walks and nothing, a mountain of rubble, the Atlantic, nothing was going to stop him.I agree, when the mountain collapsed around Juggernaut in a shower of loose rubble, he should've been able to clear it away with a single thunder clap. But look how surprised he was when he defeated GenNext(?) with it. Its just something that didn't cross his mind until recently.
He could've leapt out of the rubble to but its just something that doesn't cross a lot of minds. Wonderman has always had the strength to super leap, from his inception, but the only reason he started doing it in his own series, decades later, was because he was without his belt jets in one issue and thought 'well if Hulk can do it...'
Two examples of someone with sufficient strenghth capable of doing something, just not doing it because it never crossed their minds.
Man, Cain was quite eloquent back in the day! (re:172)
Let's not forget that Juggernaut was a match for Hulk until he started to get angry. The fight would've ended if Juggernaut's helmet didn't flip off. And as for the 8th day saga, he may have been in a hurry, but he clearly said that something was making him more powerful. The way it was written implies that the same voice that called him was also making him stronger and beefier. Trion Juggernaut, on his turn, was possessed.
What I was saying is that it's really, really unlikely that Juggernaut had this ability for unlimited strength from the beginning. He was just supposed to be very strong with an unknown upperlimit. That's really the only reason why he didn't just toss all the rubble aside. His writers, Marvel HQ, the handbooks and the comics themselves never said anything about this up to that point. Remember, it's easier to increase your strength when you have all the time in the world. He should've done it accidently, given the nature of his ability. When you're stuck beneath billions of tons of rubble, there will be a point where you concentrate and focus, especially if you can't die physically .
I agree with your point about Wonderman, but his ability actually is a logical extension of his strength. Juggernaut summoning more energy on focus actually conflicts a lot of things. Such as the 35% power, Juggernaut's own wording, Cyttorak's own will, the profiles etc. I'm not saying it can't become on of his powers, but he hasn't really shown anything that supports it, yet he did show stuff that debunks it. My theory is that some people figured that Juggernaut summoning more energy was a small step for him, so they added this to his powerset. Yet they still failed to make it official. Although I'm not sure about current handbooks.
Can some Hulk fan clear this up. Quite a few pages back (380/1) I stated the Hulk drew strength from another dimension. I assumed that dimension/universe was analagous (sp?), but was told that this is incorrect. Now you say that this has always been the case.Which is correct?
Also, the only thing that was clear in that comic was stated in the word balloons. Apocalypse set up the fight to test the might of Celestial technology against the X-Men's most powerful non-mutant foe. Hulk's strength didn't really matter except that it allowed to hang with 'naut in the first place. Celestials supercede most cosmics and apparently even those on the level of the other dimensional Vishanti.
I don't really know if it's been stated explicitly in the comics, but Wikipedia says that "characters like the Hulk" draw their power from the Pocket Universe.
And yes, the Celestial tech worked, but when it did, the Hulk started to glow in the very same way that he did before. This suggests that the tech was simply harnessing the energy form the Heroes Reborn universe and Earth 616. The point is, it was never made that clear at all. I can agree that it was the tech who did most of the work, but to what extent? Adding lots of power to what is already an unlimited source(now doubled by the energies of TWO worlds!) of power? The only logical explanation is that the tech managed to tap into the Hulk's own potential, bringing up what he himself couldnt'. It makes sense, because War Hulk didn't have the same natural efficiency in rage. This was due to his high intelligence.
The year is irrelevant. All Hulks have the same max strength level, some have a lower base, or gain strength at a different rate however.
You're missing my point. The year IS relevant, because the editor expressed Marvel's current opinion. I.e the opinion of those who are currently around in the Marvel HQ's. You see, some time before that, there were other employees who clearly thought differently.
As for Hulk, yes they all have the same physical abilities, potentially. But not all fo them have the same intelligence, the same base strength, the same rage efficiency, the same level of durability, the same extra abilities, the same weaknesses etc. The distinction is very important, because the Hulk at his phsyically most powerful is really quite different from, say, Grey Hulk. Nuances are important and shouldn't be ignored.
Originally posted by lft4ded
Try selling that to the Celestials, or even Mangog (another vs thread).
Originally posted by Sea King
well this is pretty much what the people that are voteing for hulk are saying and if they deny it i would really hate to go digging up all the old treads. they say He-Man cant ko him or Superman cant ko him. so pretty much everybody who fights hulk cant beat him.it must be like another power hulk has altogether. i think its called Super Bull $hit
Seriously, though, why do people keep claiming that he must be unbeatable if he's durable? If you look at his durability feats, it makes sense that he could stand up to attacks from other Cl100 characters. I honestly believe other characters wouldn't receive the same criticism if they had high durability feats as well.
Originally posted by lft4ded
Has the device actually withstood and attack from the Celestials? I ask because the Asgardian Destroyer was designed to defeat Celestials and was found horribly wanting, even empowered by all Asgardians save Thor.
Originally posted by lft4ded
Surfer's never defeat Thor one-on-one IIRC, he's always lost. Back in 60's even after Loki attempted to give him a power boost and even as recently as Blood and Thunder.
Originally posted by Dinalfos
I don't really know if it's been stated explicitly in the comics, but Wikipedia says that "characters like the Hulk" draw their power from the Pocket Universe.And yes, the Celestial tech worked, but when it did, the Hulk started to glow in the very same way that he did before. This suggests that the tech was simply harnessing the energy form the Heroes Reborn universe and Earth 616. The point is, it was never made that clear at all. I can agree that it was the tech who did most of the work, but to what extent? Adding lots of power to what is already an unlimited source(now doubled by the energies of TWO worlds!) of power? The only logical explanation is that the tech managed to tap into the Hulk's own potential, bringing up what he himself couldnt'. It makes sense, because War Hulk didn't have the same natural efficiency in rage. This was due to his high intelligence.
You're missing my point. The year IS relevant, because the editor expressed Marvel's current opinion. I.e the opinion of those who are currently around in the Marvel HQ's. You see, some time before that, there were other employees who clearly thought differently.
As for Hulk, yes they all have the same physical abilities, potentially. But not all fo them have the same intelligence, the same base strength, the same rage efficiency, the same level of durability, the same extra abilities, the same weaknesses etc. The distinction is very important, because the Hulk at his phsyically most powerful is really quite different from, say, Grey Hulk. Nuances are important and shouldn't be ignored.
Originally posted by juggernaut66666
ALL I HEAR IS BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BUT ALL I SEE IS THIS!:
If you want to cling to that, fine, but it doesn't really help you much. 😕
Originally posted by Dinalfos
I know wikipedia isn't reliable. I'm always hesitant to quote it. But why would anyone lie about this?
Originally posted by Accel
No one necessarily lied about it, but it's easy for information to get distorted as it's passed around. I'm still not sure where the idea of a "pocket dimension" came from.
Yeah, okay. But since I'm not sure how this Pocket thing works, I thought that I could just provide one source of information.
I only saw Peter David mentioning the pocket universe, though I doubt that he was the one who came up with the initial concept.
Alright. Idea.
Let's say that Juggernaut doesn't fight Hulk. Not at all. He just stands there. Takes punishment. Over and over again. He doesn't do anything to fight back, other than just calmly walk back towards Hulk after he gets hit away. Juggy can also keep himself from BFR in this situation.
But he just continues to not fight back. Nothing at all. Even the Hulk wouldn't just keep getting more and more pissed by knocking around an opponent without any sort of retaliation on the opponent's part. What's there to anger Hulk? Hulk will realize that he's just pounding him senselessly and nothing is happening. This both confuse and most likely will EVENTUALLY calm Hulk down just enough so gets to the point where Juggy can KO him with a few, quick, devestating punches.
Of course, Juggy would have to wait a considerable time for this to take place of course. Which, really, should be just fine. He has all the time in the world to wait in this hypothetical match.
Juggernaut wins.
Originally posted by Metalmanx
Alright. Idea.Let's say that Juggernaut doesn't fight Hulk. Not at all. He just stands there. Takes punishment. Over and over again. He doesn't do anything to fight back, other than just calmly walk back towards Hulk after he gets hit away. Juggy can also keep himself from BFR in this situation.
But he just continues to not fight back. Nothing at all. Even the Hulk wouldn't just keep getting more and more pissed by knocking around an opponent without any sort of retaliation on the opponent's part. What's there to anger Hulk? Hulk will realize that he's just pounding him senselessly and nothing is happening. This both confuse and most likely will EVENTUALLY calm Hulk down just enough so gets to the point where Juggy can KO him with a few, quick, devestating punches.
Of course, Juggy would have to wait a considerable time for this to take place of course. Which, really, should be just fine. He has all the time in the world to wait in this hypothetical match.
Juggernaut wins.
Not to mention, when a bloodlusted Hulk tries to smash something, it basically becomes his goal. If he tries to smash Cain and he sees that he's failing to do so, he's going to keep getting pissed off about it.
Originally posted by Accel
That could work as well, but again, Cain isn't smart enough to figure that out. He also has a lot of pride and would want to prove himself physically superior to Hulk by slugging it out with him.
Actually, Cain is much smarter than most give him credit for. He's proved his decent intelligence a few times in battle and during non-battle situations. Hell, Cain could even start off by fighting the Hulk. But once he realizes that it's getting nowhere for either of them, then I don't see how it would be that much of a stretch for him to employ this tactic after getting fed up with the lack of an outcome.
I think Juggy can win this one for real.
