Juggernaut or The Hulk?

Originally posted by Metalmanx
Actually, Cain is much smarter than most give him credit for. He's proved his decent intelligence a few times in battle and during non-battle situations. Hell, Cain could even start off by fighting the Hulk. But once he realizes that it's getting nowhere for either of them, then I don't see how it would be that much of a stretch for him to employ this tactic after getting fed up with the lack of an outcome.

I think Juggy can win this one for real.

"Not to mention, when a bloodlusted Hulk tries to smash something, it basically becomes his goal. If he tries to smash Cain and he sees that he's failing to do so, he's going to keep getting pissed off about it."

Originally posted by Accel
I just edited my last post to include this part, but I'll post here as well:

"Not to mention, when a bloodlusted Hulk tries to smash something, it basically becomes his goal. If he tries to smash Cain and he sees that he's failing to do so, he's going to keep getting pissed off about it."

You really think so? I'd imagine Hulk, even while bloodlusted, getting frustrated to the point of surrendering, not getting more angry. The angrier he gets, the same amount of damage he does--none. I'm sure he'll notice this after a while. I definitely think a few suprise shots on Juggy's part after Hulk remains calm for a moment can give him the victory.

Originally posted by Metalmanx
You really think so? I'd imagine Hulk, even while bloodlusted, getting frustrated to the point of surrendering, not getting more angry. The angrier he gets, the same amount of damage he does--none. I'm sure he'll notice this after a while. I definitely think a few suprise shots on Juggy's part after Hulk remains calm for a moment can give him the victory.

Originally posted by Accel
Hulk's not smart enough to figure out Cain's indestructible. In his mind, he believes any thing can be smashed. He'll also believe that Juggernaut can also be smashed and that he only needs to become strong enough to do so.

Even if it takes him far past the realm of eternity? Basically, even if it never happens?

Originally posted by Metalmanx
You really think so? I'd imagine Hulk, even while bloodlusted, getting frustrated to the point of surrendering, not getting more angry. The angrier he gets, the same amount of damage he does--none. I'm sure he'll notice this after a while. I definitely think a few suprise shots on Juggy's part after Hulk remains calm for a moment can give him the victory.

The Hulk has never surrendered. In the frustration may only increase the speed of which his anger level rises even further. He can easily BFR Juggernaut in that state, even when his shield is up. Remember, the Hulk may calm down and leap away when Juggernaut is out of sight and doesn't come back within a couple of minutes. That would get both of them absolutely nowhere.

Serious honest question. How does Hulk ever lose? And Who could ever beat him?

Because in your guys opinion, limitless Strength is not enough.

Juggernaut's unlimited strength is still highly debatable. But if he has it, then he surely can't use it off the bat. And the Hulk's strength increases as well, so that means he can keep standing up to him.

Originally posted by Metalmanx
Even if it takes him far past the realm of eternity? Basically, even if it never happens?

Originally posted by Apolloknight
Serious honest question. How does Hulk ever lose? And Who could ever beat him?

Look, he's durable enough to withstand Juggernaut's assaults, but that doesn't mean he's unbeatable, even physically. I hope someday you'll understand that.

Originally posted by Apolloknight
Because in your guys opinion, limitless Strength is not enough.

Originally posted by Accel
Right. Sure, Hulk will become frustrated through and through, but he's going to keep trying.

He loses like any one else would. Guys like Surfer could easily drain his gamma radiation. Guys like Dr. Strange could easily BFR him. And yes, he CAN be knocked out.

Look, he's durable enough to withstand Juggernaut's assaults, but that doesn't mean he's unbeatable, even physically. I hope someday you'll understand that.

It's not. If it were, Hulk would never lose.

Well see this is what I don't understand Accel, one second you say Hulk can be KO physically with sufficient force, you guys doubt juggernaut had enough strength to do it, so the entire base of your arguments was Hulk could withstand Juggernauts Assault.

We Then prove to you juggernaut can call upon as much power as he needs, yet then you say it is still not enough. I don't, and probably never will understand your logic, its as if you say one thing, we prove it, and then say another to avoid the facts we give you.

The Thing is, your not going to see Juggernaut Power up Super Sayian Style, thats not how it works with him, its very simple, if Juggernaut wants to do something bad enough, he is going to do it, PERIOD. Whether it be KO'ing top tier people on one or 2 blows, or flicking people over mountains, if Juggernaut wants something done, he is going to do it, simple as that.

Originally posted by Dinalfos
Juggernaut's unlimited strength is still highly debatable. But if he has it, then he surely can't use it off the bat. And the Hulk's strength increases as well, so that means he can keep standing up to him.

Dinalfos, your not being even about this, how can you say Juggernauts Strength is in debate? We proved to you that he can in fact accomplish anything he wants bad enough. A MARVEL EDITOR STATED IT, I mean honestly, they only own all the rights to their characters, created them, know their history's better then any of us, come on, be serious. I remember you guys saying like 50 pages back "Well Stan lee said hulk has unlimited Anger, it doesn't work like humans", and we accepted it, IF Stan lee says it, what handbook, feat, comic book, or any thing else is to argue with him, NOBODY.

And you act like Hulk will be fully enraged, remember, Juggernaut had Hulk weakened in one of their fights before, in just two blows I might add, now if Juggernaut was focused, he wouldn't of gone for the neck snap, knowing Hulk will just heal from it, he would of keep pounding him, with limitless strength punches.

But whatever, HULK IS THE STRONGEST ONE THERE IS, AND HE HAS unlimited DURABILITY, unlimited STRENGTH, unlimited STAMINA, unlimited SPEED, ARRGGGHHHHHH!!!!.

Originally posted by Apolloknight
Well see this is what I don't understand Accel, one second you say Hulk can be KO physically with sufficient force, you guys doubt juggernaut had enough strength to do it, so the entire base of your arguments was Hulk could withstand Juggernauts Assault.

Originally posted by Apolloknight
We Then prove to you juggernaut can call upon as much power as he needs, yet then you say it is still not enough. I don't, and probably never will understand your logic, its as if you say one thing, we prove it, and then say another to avoid the facts we give you.

Cain can increase his strength. Good for him. However, he doesn't just immediately go to fifty times stronger than what he originally was in the first milli-second of the fight. Hulk can become stronger and more durable as well, especially when he's pissed off. And since he'll be in bloodlust, he'll be very mad at the very start of the fight, causing both his strength AND his durability to increase significantly, even when Juggernaut increases his strength. They'll both get stronger and stronger and the end result will be the same.

THAT is my logic. You need to stop ignoring the fact that Hulk is also bloodlusted and his durability will escalate quickly and dramatically.

Originally posted by Apolloknight
The Thing is, your not going to see Juggernaut Power up Super Sayian Style, thats not how it works with him, its very simple, if Juggernaut wants to do something bad enough, he is going to do it, PERIOD. Whether it be KO'ing top tier people on one or 2 blows, or flicking people over mountains, if Juggernaut wants something done, he is going to do it, simple as that.

Originally posted by Apolloknight
And you act like Hulk will be fully enraged, remember, Juggernaut had Hulk weakened in one of their fights before, in just two blows I might add, now if Juggernaut was focused, he wouldn't of gone for the neck snap, knowing Hulk will just heal from it, he would of keep pounding him, with limitless strength punches.

Originally posted by Apolloknight

Dinalfos, your not being even about this, how can you say Juggernauts Strength is in debate? We proved to you that he can in fact accomplish anything he wants bad enough. A MARVEL EDITOR STATED IT, I mean honestly, they only own all the rights to their characters, created them, know their history's better then any of us, come on, be serious. I remember you guys saying like 50 pages back "Well Stan lee said hulk has unlimited Anger, it doesn't work like humans", and we accepted it, IF Stan lee says it, what handbook, feat, comic book, or any thing else is to argue with him, NOBODY.

And you act like Hulk will be fully enraged, remember, Juggernaut had Hulk weakened in one of their fights before, in just two blows I might add, now if Juggernaut was focused, he wouldn't of gone for the neck snap, knowing Hulk will just heal from it, he would of keep pounding him, with limitless strength punches.

His strength is not in debate(which has an "unknown" upperlimit), his ability to increase it is. So far, I haven't seen any on panel evidence that he could increase his strength all by himself. In the 8th day saga he needed a call, Trion Juggernaut was possessed by Cyttorak, it took him ten years to dig himself out(simply because he wasn't written to have that ability) etc. One little article that that speaks of opinion says his strength is unlimited(whereas, a couple of years earlier, the very same headquarters had a different opinion. Not to mention the writerst themselves, who never said anything about it), and all of a sudden everything that happens on panel is wrong? If that's the case, then none of your points about Namor and Rhino defeating Hulk hold any water.

Mind you(because I know you will just misinterpret me like you always do), I'm not saying he doesn't have that ability. He may very well have it, if the writers want him to. And Marvel can still make it official. But so far there's far more to conflict this theory than anything. And "Marvel HQ", what does that even mean? I don't want to be a dick, but does that include EVERYONE at work? The caretaker? The secretary? The president? The managers? IF that's the case, then this is nothing more than general opinion, which can change every second. Look, I understand what you're trying to say, but there's never been an official statement that materialized beyond some hear say around MHQ.

I'd like to know what Marvel's latest handbook says about this. Handbooks aren't everything, but at least it gives us something more substantial and clear cut.

But whatever, HULK IS THE STRONGEST ONE THERE IS, AND HE HAS unlimited DURABILITY, unlimited STRENGTH, unlimited STAMINA, unlimited SPEED, ARRGGGHHHHHH!!!!.

Act normally and maturely, please.

And limitless strength punches don't exist.

Originally posted by Dinalfos
His strength is not in debate(which has an "unknown" upperlimit), his ability to increase it is. So far, I haven't seen any on panel evidence that he could increase his strength all by himself. In the 8th day saga he needed a call, Trion Juggernaut was possessed by Cyttorak, it took him ten years to dig himself out(simply because he wasn't written to have that ability) etc. One little article that that speaks of opinion says his strength is unlimited(whereas, a couple of years earlier, the very same headquarters had a different opinion. Not to mention the writerst themselves, who never said anything about it), and all of a sudden everything that happens on panel is wrong? If that's the case, then none of your points about Namor and Rhino defeating Hulk hold any water.

Mind you(because I know you will just misinterpret me like you always do), I'm not saying he doesn't have that ability. He may very well have it, if the writers want him to. And Marvel can still make it official. But so far there's far more to conflict this theory than anything. And "Marvel HQ", what does that even mean? I don't want to be a dick, but does that include EVERYONE at work? The caretaker? The secretary? The president? The managers? IF that's the case, then this is nothing more than general opinion, which can change every second. Look, I understand what you're trying to say, but there's never been an official statement that materialized beyond some hear say around MHQ.

I'd like to know what Marvel's latest handbook says about this. Handbooks aren't everything, but at least it gives us something more substantial and clear cut.

Act normally and maturely, please.

Well Hulks anger has limits since its not "Official", therefore, his strength and Durability does have limits.

K we agree on something.

Originally posted by Apolloknight
Well Hulks anger has limits since its not "Official", therefore, his strength and Durability does have limits.

K we agree on something.

Actually, it has been stated that it's limitless. On panel, by Marvel and by Stan Lee himself.

I don't know how Lee and Kirby feel about Juggernaut, though.

Originally posted by Dinalfos
And limitless strength punches don't exist.

Flash has infanite mass punches pretty much the same thing 😉

Originally posted by Dinalfos
Actually, it has been stated that it's limitless. On panel, by Marvel and by Stan Lee himself.

I don't know how Lee and Kirby feel about Juggernaut, though.

So, Juggernauts strength has been stated to be limitless, able to shatter planets with a single pucnh, Marvel HQ says Juggernaut is the strongest.

But it only matters in Hulks case right??? 😕

Originally posted by Sea King
Flash has infanite mass punches pretty much the same thing 😉

That's different, actually. Juggernaut would have to move at the speed of light to be able to increase his mass towards infinity.

Also, where does finite end and infinite begin?

Originally posted by Apolloknight
So, Juggernauts strength has been stated to be limitless, able to shatter planets with a single pucnh, Marvel HQ says Juggernaut is the strongest.

But it only matters in Hulks case right??? 😕

Now that you mention it....there's another reason not to take that ed's note entirely serious. How can you be stronger than someone who also has unlimited strength? Is Marvel ignoring the abilities of their own characters? Again, I don't want to be a dick, but that note is highly suspicious. Give me some clear cut, non-subjective evidence and I'll accept it. Possibly even on panel evidence, anything will do. But "opinion" is simply not enough. Anything could be said about any character during lunchbreaks.

I'm not accepting the Hulk's own fanmail editors as a reliable source, even when they say they believe Hulk is the strongest.

Originally posted by Dinalfos
Now that you mention it....there's another reason not to take that ed's note entirely serious. How can you be stronger than someone who also has unlimited strength? Is Marvel ignoring the abilities of their own characters? Again, I don't want to be a dick, but that note is highly suspicious. Give me some clear cut, non-subjective evidence and I'll accept it. Possibly even on panel evidence, anything will do. But "opinion" is simply not enough. Anything could be said about any character during lunchbreaks.

I'm not accepting the Hulk's own fanmail editors as a reliable source, even when they say they believe Hulk is the strongest.

Actually if you read the article again, he wants to believe Hulk is the strongest, but he also doesn't, He too believes Juggernaut is the Strongest. He says something like "As much as I would like to say Hulk is the Strongest....etc".

Well Stan lee's opinion isn't enough then, Also, we have shown you proof that Juggernauts Strength is limitless, show me the anger then please!!!, I want to read it myself.

Also you haven't been listing to me, Hulk has to get angry to access his strength, Juggernaut can Access his strength AT WILL.

AT WILL>>>>>Outside Punishment.

Think about it.

Originally posted by Apolloknight
Actually if you read the article again, he wants to believe Hulk is the strongest, but he also doesn't, He too believes Juggernaut is the Strongest. He says something like "As much as I would like to say Hulk is the Strongest....etc".

Well Stan lee's opinion isn't enough then, Also, we have shown you proof that Juggernauts Strength is limitless, show me the anger then please!!!, I want to read it myself.

Also you haven't been listing to me, Hulk has to get angry to access his strength, Juggernaut can Access his strength [b]AT WILL.

AT WILL>>>>>Outside Punishment.

Think about it. [/B]

No, read it again. Please.

Again, you can't be stronger than someone who has unlimited strength as well. That....doesn't....make...sense. You haven't shown me proof that his strength is limitless. I've only seen that he's extremely strong and able to things that most powerhouses couldn't. But I still haven't seen any reliable evidence that he can increase it all by himself.

And if you want to see more proof about Hulk's strength, check the scans with Beyonder or leader, or ask Dalak to post the Stan Lee quote.

Yes, but Juggernaut needs to focus to get his strength, if he can do it at all. And he's certainly not gonna get all of it at once. The Hulk's strength increases instantaneous, too.