'Did I put the word "invincible" in my post? Being killed and being wiped from existence by a cosmic entity are totally different things. And how the hell does that pertain to this fight?'
You said he can't die, he looked dead to me. Not in existence: dead.
It doesn't pertain to the fight, it pertains to your comment.
'Actually IS true, unless you '
There's no UNLESS in CANNOT.
Well, you can kill Cain Marko, but you can't kill him while he's connected to his powers, as I already said. Looked dead to you right? Any body that looked dead? Any remains? Like I said, they ARE two different things. Wiping everything blank, and starting fresh, not really killing someone. If you can explain how this is the same thing, please do.
If you are going to childishly cling to semantics, incorrectly, then I'll indulge you.
Juggernaut can be wiped from existence. Yes?
He existed.
No more.
It's quite stupid to claim you meant a special kind of dead, not anything like being wiped from existence.
Dictionary definition of 'to die': To cease existing.
To stop existing.
Okay, I'll give you that one, since I guess I'm being childish here. I could comment further, I'm an adult though, and won't spend my time bickering about soemthing so petty. Anyways, I'll give it to you though.
Okay, Juggernaut CAN die, but not by any means that Hulk can throw at him, which is the point I was actually trying to make, but I guess I need to specify things more with some people on here, unless they want to correct the slightest of comments.
Originally posted by Tron
Okay, I'll give you that one, since I guess I'm being childish here. I could comment further, I'm an adult though, and won't spend my time bickering about soemthing so petty. Anyways, I'll give it to you though.Okay, Juggernaut CAN die, but not by any means that Hulk can throw at him, which is the point I was actually trying to make, but I guess I need to specify things more with some people on here, unless they want to correct the slightest of comments.
It's a big distinction though.
Not even going into whether death is required for a victory, which it obviously isn't.
I think it'd be a good fight. Juggernaut's durability doesn't seem to be as untouchable as legend would have it, given the mass of comic evidence stated throughout this thread.
Yeah you're right, death isn't required to win this fight, I said that already though.
Yeah, his durability and invunerability aren't completely untouchable, but I still don't see any way for Hulk to get through those, not that he has to get through them to win. It would be a great match though, no interuptions, both opponents putting their all into it, it would probably be the greatest fury unleashed on Earth, even moreso than Juggernaut's fight with Stonecutter in Jugernaut: Eighth Day
Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
Did you see Juggernaut walking around after The End?Then he's not invincible. No buts, invincible is an all or nothing term.
Ya know, I've been over this once already.
Perfect example here.
Say you are playing a video game. The file you saved your game to represents the universe, all of time and space etc. With me so far? Hope so. Now, let's say the character in this game is immortal because of a cheat code you've activated, the character is invincible to any harm the game can throw at him. The cheat is his "magical invulnerability". Now.. if you delete or reset the game.. you basically erased and restarted his little universe. His invulnerability did not save him from being deleted along with his file. When the universe was erased and remade in "The End" thats the same principle. Everything and everyone in the "file" of "the universe" was erased along with it. Nobody "died" or was "killed" they and the universe that defined what the word "death" means ceased to be. There was nothing, there was no life.. there was no death, for a moment it was oblivion. Then it was remade. Poof, everything back to normal. Like hitting the reset button. If you can understand that concept, you can see how being killed, and being erased along with the rest of existance itself.. are very different things.
It's this type of petty bickering on a 55 page thread that makes it all worth closing. Trying to make people look foolish is not a part of a dicussion! And believe me there is PLENTY of that petty behavior that has occured within these pages....because i "believe" all has been said.
Flame me if u want......but dammit i got me a fire hose Wooooooooo!
BTW The term Invulnerable and Unstopabble have been confused enough especially with Juggernaught. Don't you think Unstoppable is just a moniker that he bestowed upon himself!
You call it bickering, I call it debating.
And one should not say things like "flame me if you want" that's just coaxing someone into breaking board rules. You aren't supposed to encourage that sort of behavior.
And I don't see anyone trying to make anyone look foolish. If someone is made to look foolish in your opinion because someone else's post sheds light on an inaccurate bit of information the first person may of posted, well that's just one interpretation of the situation. For someone to genuinely be trying to make another appear foolish as you say they may are, I would expect for them to actually call the other a fool. If they aren't calling the other a fool, then the act of making them appear foolish is only your assumption of what they are actually doing, but not a fact.
You could also of made an attempt to stay on topic instead of trying to scold someone for what you assume is an implied insult.
I see nothing more here than a healthy debate and a sharing of opinions and information. Just because opinions remain unchanged and not always in agreement in eachother is no reason to close a thread.
Now in the interest of remaining on topic-
I believe that radiation is an widely overused and generic source of power for superheroes. Hulk uses it to fuel his super powers. I believe this idea comes from the concept of nuclear powere plants and nuclear powered subs. However the idea is flawed in the case of a superhero using is a a source of power. It is implied in comics that radiation can be harvested for raw energy, which is not the case in actual nuclear power. Radiative material gives off a great amount of heat, that heat is used to evaporated water and produce steam in the real world. This spins a turbine which produces electricity. In essence all nuclear powered subs are actually steam driven, since all the radioactive rods in their generators do is boil water. Since the Hulk is not powered by a steam driven turbine, it makes no sense at all radiation should give him any power at all instead of killing him as it would a normal human being.
You can also see an explanation of how nuclear power works here http://people.howstuffworks.com/nuclear-power3.htm
I'm not going to single Hulk out on his odd power source. Juggernaut's power is also unexplained as to how it fuels him. However as his power source is some other worldly energy, no explantion what-so-ever can be given scientifically as how it provides him such incredible durability or now it sustains him in place of food, water, air, rest. It is classified as mystical energy.
the dictionary defines mystical as: Enigmatic; obscure: Unintelligible; cryptic.
in that way it merely states it is an unknown energy and how it functions is a mystery.
his power is also classfied as magical. the dictionary says magical means: possessing or using or characteristic of or appropriate to supernatural powers
All that tells us is that it's supernatural. but what does the dictionary tell us that means. it tell us that it means: Attributed to a power that seems to violate or go beyond natural forces.
And that is a very good description of what his powers do. That "mystical" and "magical" energy that flows through Juggernaut somehow allows him to act on a supernatural level, making him impervious to many of the natural forces of the Earthly plane.
Hulk's powers on the other hand. Gamma radiation. the dictionary tells us that radiation is just energy given off in waves or particles. and that gamma radiation has a short wavelength and is primarely used for cancer therapy. "radiation that is composed of gamma rays and is used in cancer radiotherapy" As you may or may not know that particular therapy is used to kill cancer cells by focusing radiation on them for short periods. Gamma radiation destroys living tissue.
Now, this is a strange situation. One the one hand we have Juggernaut's unexplainable mystical energy that defies the laws of the natural world.
And on the other hand, we have Hulk's gamma radiation fueled powers that according to the laws of the natural world.. should be killing him instead of making him stronger.
Neither character provides an explanation for how their powers work. Therefore it is impossible to say which source of power is greater, and by association the fighters powered by the afore meantioned energies cannot have their abilities gauged by any earthly measurement. The victor can only be determined arbitrarily based on our own opinions, since no concrete logic can prove the superiority of either radiation driven heros or magical driven villians.
Past battle results yield only inconclusive evidence based on outside interference being a factor in every encounter. Until they fight one on one, with no power augmentation, no assistance, no intereference. All we can do is speculate and debate. THAT is the purpose of this discussion, and there is no limit to how long it can continue.
Originally posted by Vash TFA
Ya know, I've been over this once already.Perfect example here.
Say you are playing a video game. The file you saved your game to represents the universe, all of time and space etc. With me so far? Hope so. Now, let's say the character in this game is immortal because of a cheat code you've activated, the character is invincible to any harm the game can throw at him. The cheat is his "magical invulnerability". Now.. if you delete or reset the game.. you basically erased and restarted his little universe. His invulnerability did not save him from being deleted along with his file. When the universe was erased and remade in "The End" thats the same principle. Everything and everyone in the "file" of "the universe" was erased along with it. Nobody "died" or was "killed" they and the universe that defined what the word "death" means ceased to be. There was nothing, there was no life.. there was no death, for a moment it was oblivion. Then it was remade. Poof, everything back to normal. Like hitting the reset button. If you can understand that concept, you can see how being killed, and being erased along with the rest of existance itself.. are very different things.
Why the hell do you need to use an analogy? There's a perfectly good LITERAL situation to analyse, obviously only reconcilable BY analogy.
You are talking about frickin' files. Why? It's not even relevant to the actual situation which can be easily discussed.
By 'if I can undertand that concept', I take it you are claiming to be my intellectual superior? Obviously one would struggle to understand your sophisticated Kafkaesque analogy, about computer games.
Are there even any straws left to clutch regarding Juggernaut's invincibility, invulnerability, etc?
Look at the lengths you went to, with a bizarre analogy, in order to disprove a dictionary definition.
Actually Vash i did make an attempt to stay on target ...if u carefully read my post. Also i didn't directly attack or "scold" anyone i just voiced my opinion as you are doing yourself.
And really, are we just debating or are we trying to prove our points. What is the use in debating if we are not trying to make our points THE most valid and accepted.
Are we just trying to massage our ego's or mental prowess. I guess that's why we use our Million dollar words when really not making any "cents" (not attcking just stating)
When i say "flaming" that is not an invitation to coax someone into a heated statement, we all know people are responsible for their own actions. I said that because with most people that is a course of action (to flame) when people feel they are being attacked.
When does a discussion stop being productive...maybe when it becomes redundant....maybe.
As far as your whole "fool" theory..... well it is hard to tell someone's general state of emotion on a post or talking IM. But really, we have that gut feeling when we are being mocked....i almost feel it now!
By the way, That was a kool link on the Nuclear info! Thanks, after 55 pages i actually did learn something.
I saw Muta's point completely, so I won't dwell on that. And it's been explained why Banner survived the radiation, the same with Samson, Abomination, and Leader. I don't remember the full details of it, but from what I do remember, they wach have a specific gene that allowed them to survive where others would've died, and at the same time mutate their genetic structure, which is what extended exposure to radiation can do to most living things. Like I said though, I don't know every single detail on it though, but anyone who happens to know more about it than I do is welcome to give a better explanation.
Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
Why the hell do you need to use an analogy? There's a perfectly good LITERAL situation to analyse, obviously only reconcilable BY analogy.You are talking about frickin' files. Why? It's not even relevant to the actual situation which can be easily discussed.
By 'if I can undertand that concept', I take it you are claiming to be my intellectual superior? Obviously one would struggle to understand your sophisticated Kafkaesque analogy, about computer games.
Are there even any straws left to clutch regarding Juggernaut's invincibility, invulnerability, etc?
Look at the lengths you went to, with a bizarre analogy, in order to disprove a dictionary definition.
It wasn't a bizzare analogy at all. But I will take your somewhat agitaited retort to mean you didn't understand it.
Here's something even simpler.
The universe is a piece of paper. On it are drawings of characters.. some are in pencil. Some are in ink. Those in pencil are temporary, those in ink are permanent. Mortals and immortals. Erasing a pencil character is like killing them, but those in ink can't be erased. However.. if one destroyed the paper they were drawn apon, should the paper itself cease to be, than all within it, pencil or ink, mortal or immortal. Would cease to be along with the paper, the universe. So.. unmaking the universe and unmaking everyone in it.. is not the same as blowing it up and killing everyone in it.
I still fail to see how you couldn't grasp the idea of "deletion" as opposed to "destruction".
You say dieing is ceasing to be.. well, if a dog dies, it does not cease to be. It does not even cease to be a dog. It merely becomes a dead dog. The dog did exist, and it does still exist. But it exists in a different form. A non living form, a dead form. But if you "deleted" a dog from the universe, erased it's past, present, and future. Then and only then does the dog cease to be, cease to of been. In the comic "The End" the universe ceased to be, it ceased to exist. It didn't "die" no one in it "died" they did not persist as corpses, as nonliving forms, they literally ceased to exist, they never existed. Not until the universe was again remade out of nothing.
I had thought the concept of "deleting files" was a perfect analogy to illustrate the concept of something "ceaseing to be" as data is the only thing that can be completely erased in this way. No phyiscal force save for perhaps a black hole could completely obliterate matter. (and even that has yet to be proven).
If you don't get it, then you don't get it. But don't get angry with me because of it.
Jesus Christ.
'The universe is a piece of paper. On it are drawings of characters.. some are in pencil. Some are in ink. Those in pencil are temporary, those in ink are permanent. Mortals and immortals. Erasing a pencil character is like killing them, but those in ink can't be erased. However.. if one destroyed the paper they were drawn apon, should the paper itself cease to be, than all within it, pencil or ink, mortal or immortal. Would cease to be along with the paper, the universe. So.. unmaking the universe and unmaking everyone in it.. is not the same as blowing it up and killing everyone in it.'
This is all works nicely, but it's not the same. It is not the same situation at all.
If someone has the power to 'unmake' someone, then conceivably that person has the power to kill them. They have the power to make them cease existing.
Let me use your analogy.
I can reset a computer game and 'erase' an invincible character, yet they are still invincible in their little world.
I cannot enter the computer game. Thanos was an active part of the universe he destroyed.
Look, do you realise how moronic it is to construct vast analogues when the original is not only different but easily analysed?
'You say dieing is ceasing to be.. well, if a dog dies, it does not cease to be. It does not even cease to be a dog. '
I don't say 'dying is ceasing to be', the dictionary does. Maybe you'd like to use one of your irrelevant analogies to point out why Dr. Johnson's concept of word definition does not apply when Juggernaut is involved.
Data does not 'cease to be' either, it remains as a decaying magnetic presence. None of this is the point, the point is that Juggernaut can be killed. If you think he is incapable of such, then only one of us lacks understanding.
By the way, stop speaking in a condescending manner, it's ignorant and there's no need for it, especially given you are not my superior.
This is so ridiculous.
You are actually clinging onto the fact that he can be erased but not die as if that is some kind of triumph.
Oracle, can Juggernaut die?
'The universe is a piece of paper my child. '
Victor, you have yet to actually prove anything I said wrong. You only state that you are annoyed at the use of analogy, and you believe that something being erased from existance is the same as dieing. I believe otherwise.
If something was erased from time and space, then it never was. For something to "die" it would have to of been "born". If time and space were erased as in "The End" then nobody "died".. because they never existed.
Thanos destroying the universe he was in.. does not prove or disprove anything. He was in the possession of god-like powers and existed outside the laws of the universe he destroyed. Much like the force that recreated it was not destroyed with it.. because it operated outside the fabric of space and time.
"I can reset a computer game and 'erase' an invincible character, yet they are still invincible in their little world. " and what part of that do you not comprehend?
It's simple, character is invincible to things within their universe. Pressing the reset button on said universe is something done on a whole different level.
Case in point. You CAN reset the universe (game) in which an invincible character exists. And though he is impervious to harm and immune to death as the universe (game) defines it. It dooes not exempt him from being reset (erased.. deleted.. etc) along with it. But it's clearly.. clearly.. not the same thing when you end the characters life within the universe (game) with a traditional and accepted form of execution, (beheading, impaleling, burning, shooting.. whatever) and cause their body to die when compared to removing the character from time and space itself with some magic gems and obliterating the universe they existed in.
Clearly, Juggernaut can be removed from existance. Everything was. But he wasn't killed, nobody was killed, nobody died. Nobody became a corpse, a carcus, a lifeless husk, decaying matter, compost, fertilizer, nobody was pushing up daisies, nobody croaked, bit the dust, bought the farm, or what have you. Nobodies heart stopped beating.. it just went.. poof.
If I draw a character getting shot in the head, he's dead. If I erase him off the paper, he ceased to be.
Oh no, more analogies! God help us all.