talon fair point but unfortunately u r wrong dear boy. the fact juggie was stopped basically took the piss out of his powers, ie is stoppable, war hulk, normal hulk or whatever. secondly celestial magic my arse he got some weapons and an attitude. war hulk was a second away from killing juggie, so er, he can be hurt, whatever war hulk was he showed he could,
a) stop the juggernaught, as in stop, not halt stop, end of story,
b)hurt juggie,
juggie is not an equal to hulk as is a character who has no powers or intellect or anything that will beat hulk except, er brute force and ignorance which unfortunately for juggie hulk has an advantage in fighting that way. hulk is stonger, more than capable of taking juggies blows and if unable to injure, will just throw him around till hes bored or juggies powers are found not to be as strong, ie hs indestructability and he gets squashed. juggie was created more as a foe to the x men than as an adversary for hulk who is the ultimate in his division ( strong bruisers) as was created to be the ultimate and if is ever defeated in a manner of brute force that just shows unimaginative writing as opposed to to having him beaten a more subtle way, ie we can all dream up super heroes who can always go 1 more than their predecessor, my hero is ulta super duper man, he has unlimited strength + 1 and is indestructable and the tallest and the best hair dresser. Juggie has not got enough strength/brute force to beat hulk, and that is all he has to hurt him im afraid.
Originally posted by Tough Guy
talon fair point but unfortunately u r wrong dear boy. the fact juggie was stopped basically took the piss out of his powers, ie is stoppable, war hulk, normal hulk or whatever. secondly celestial magic my arse he got some weapons and an attitude.
war hulk was a second away from killing juggie, so er, he can be hurt, whatever war hulk was he showed he could
hulk is stonger, more than capable of taking juggies blows and if unable to injure, will just throw him around till hes bored or juggies powers are found not to be as strong, ie hs indestructability and he gets squashed.
Juggie has not got enough strength/brute force to beat hulk
well he hasnt, but he's lost the inertia-cancelling forcefield, some invulnerability, and strength, he was getting pummeled badly in uncanny xmen by sasquatch, he wasnt fighting back but i've NEVER seen juggernaut like that no matter how bad the beating was before, anyway cytorrak has been draining energy from juggy since the exemplars story arc
"War Hulk this War Hulk that. When are you going to understand that is not regular Hulk, but a much stronger version of the Hulk ?! Do you think Celestial weapons were just for show ? If I remember correctly, War Hulk was drawing lots of energy from another dimension. Hey, even I can win that way against Juggernaut. Hardly a fair fight."
Apocalypse has an insanely magnificent scope of power and wisdom right?
Well then if he could bestow that kind of power on anyone why didn't he just pick anyone? Why did he choose Hulk? Coz he only brought to the surface what was already capable of coming to the surface, he just did so faster. He gave him weapons but with regards to the brute strength, it's quite unfair to say it was given to him.
"If you say so. But, how come Hulk and Thor always have so much trouble with Juggernaut ?"
I've never known Hulk to have "trouble" with Juggernaut. I don't know if we can say the same for Juggernaut for the simple reason that Juggernaut chases after Hulk, Juggernaut wants to defeat Hulk. Hulk doesn't go looking for Juggernaut. Why has Juggernaut repeatedly come back? Coz all his attempts to win in a one on one without trickery have failed.
-AC
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Well then if he could bestow that kind of power on anyone why didn't he just pick anyone?
But in any case, most people will admit - I hope - that the only way War Hulk was able to kick Juggernaut around, was because he was equipped with some heavy celestial weaponry and technological stuff. Again, these things provided War Hulk with lots of extra energy and power.
Why did he choose Hulk? Coz he only brought to the surface what was already capable of coming to the surface, he just did so faster.
I've never known Hulk to have "trouble" with Juggernaut.
Apocalypse has an insanely magnificent scope of power and wisdom right?
Originally posted by Havoc470
well he hasnt, but he's lost the inertia-cancelling forcefield, some invulnerability, and strength, he was getting pummeled badly in uncanny xmen by sasquatch, he wasnt fighting back but i've NEVER seen juggernaut like that no matter how bad the beating was before, anyway cytorrak has been draining energy from juggy since the exemplars story arc
Well, I have to bring a point someone else I kow brought up; when did they ever say tat Cyttorak was draining Juggernaut of his powers? I may be wrong, but I've never seen anything anywhere that ever said that. But, why he's so depowered, I can answer that for ya: Chuck Austen sucks. He basically form what I've seen, brought Juggernaut down in power, and gave no explanation for such a big change, whic his what he's known for. He made him weaker to simply suit his needs, nothing more. Although he did say he couldn't write a character so powerful, which I understand, but then that makes me ask why the f*ck he's writing Action Comics, with the most overpowered character of all time? Well, that would explain why Action's so shitty now also, but I've gotten off the subject.
And to answer what you said Alpha: Why didn't Apocalypse pick anyone else? Perfect timing pretty much, it was a Bannerless Hulk. Add that to wanting to further boost the powers of an already extremely powerful character and you got yourself an even greater monster.
And Hulk "not have trouble" with Juggernaut? Really now, you can't be serious. He definitely started have a good bit of "trouble" in their first fight, the second I don't really know, and I won't even mention the third fight.
its really never been a fact, but since he came from the ultra-verse its been shown that his power has been diminishing
although it doesnt prove it but this page may help http://www.uncannyxmen.net/db/characters/showquestion.asp?fldAuto=596
Oh, and since people have said that War Hulk's power was already there (which is a power he still hasn't come close reaching yet), lets see how regular Hulk would fair against 8th Day Juggernaut, where Cyttorak brought out the power in Juggernaut that was already there also, and see just how that goes.😉
And Tough Guy, War Hulk being a second away from killing Juggernaut, that is still very debateable, cause no one actually knows if that sword would've really even done anything to Juggernaut.
i dont like all that war hulk versus juggy stuff, i think of hulk vs. juggy and thats it, the only difference for me is either classic or present day which i think would make a difference
classic, i dont think either would win(as unfair as that sounds, thats my concclusion) but present hulk definitely wins
Originally posted by Havoc470
its really never been a fact, but since he came from the ultra-verse its been shown that his power has been diminishingalthough it doesnt prove it but this page may help http://www.uncannyxmen.net/db/characters/showquestion.asp?fldAuto=596
Yeah, I never read that (although I wish I did, it was some of the last Ultraverse stuff), but he was still strong enough to tangle with Prime, who's strong enough to tangle with Thor. He got brought down even further again during his run in Uncanny, thanks to Chuck "The Suck." Besides the Ultraverse, there isn't really much reason, that I've seen, that his power should be as low as it is, that I've seen anyways.
i dont know, i've seen juggy get punched square in the face a few times and come out looking like a million bucks, after sasquatch was done with juggy in uncanny he looked like i never thought i'd see him, but it was a crappy writer, none the less its been stated, doesnt mean much, juggernaut is still a strong character, but recent juggernaut versus recent hulk would mean a win for hulk imo
Originally posted by Havoc470
i dont like all that war hulk versus juggy stuff, i think of hulk vs. juggy and thats it, the only difference for me is either classic or present day which i think would make a differenceclassic, i dont think either would win(as unfair as that sounds, thats my concclusion) but present hulk definitely wins
Yeah I hear ya, don't like it all myself either. Although I lean more to Juggernaut on this, I've debated that it could go either way, depending on the circumstances. Some people don't see it that way though, unfortunately. Either could win, it just depends on who's lucky day it is, in my opinion.
"That's what you say"
It's what you choose not to believe. No more no less, which is fine with me.
"But in any case, most people will admit - I hope - that the only way War Hulk was able to kick Juggernaut around, was because he was equipped with some heavy celestial weaponry and technological stuff. Again, these things provided War Hulk with lots of extra energy and power."
Agreed, but there is more to War Hulk scenario than "Apocalypse made him that strong." People don't like the fact that he chose Hulk coz Hulk rules. If he could do it to anyone he would have picked someone else.
"I have. I can't remember a normal Hulk having an easy fight with Juggernaut, or a clean victory ever. I think the first time they fought, Juggernaut was trying to break Hulks' neck, and Hulk was screaming in pain. Hulk also was getting tired, Juggernaut wasn't."
Hulk also seemed to pound Juggernaut into the floor and throw him into a building. Juggernaut got back up and Hulk walked off so Juggernaut attacked him from behind. Juggernaut clearly kept chasing Hulk for a reason, I don't believe Hulk thinks he has anything to prove by fighting Juggernaut. Juggernaut clearly believes he has something to prove by defeating Hulk. As for the not hurting thing, again I'll say this:
Juggernaut is protected by magic, a forcefield if need be and armour made by who knows what, Hulk strolls around it jeans with no shirt. The liklihood of Juggernaut walking out less/not hurt is inevitable.
Essentially Juggernaut is just a magically over-enhanced human being. His magical protection doesn't by any stretch give him anything close to a win over Hulk but it protects him a Hell of alot and if he never had it he'd be luncheon meat. Coz with his strength level and armour alone, Hulk would tear him to shreds. The only reason Juggernaut is still walking after the fight with Hulk is coz of magical protection IMO.
But in closing:
"I guess. So Apocalypse - the wise one - said to himself : Hm, even Hulk is no match for Juggernaut, so let's give him a big advantage. Yes, indeed, very clever of him, he knew that otherwise the fight would continue for weeks... "
Good attempt at turning around my question, but doesn't change the fact that with all that wisdom he still picked Hulk out of every single being on Earth and the fact that he gave him weapons that added an UNDISCLOSED (not assuming huge amounts or just more) amount of extra energy to him doesn't change the fact that he decided that was the person for Juggernaut to fight. So if you wanna get technical, the War Hulk Vs Juggernaut fight was one of the fairer ones because they both had strength from outside influences (Cytorakk Gem/Celestial Power). Juggernaut's whole existance is based on being powered up by outside means, Hulk just having the power he was given was therefore technically at a handicap. So it was pretty much even.
The key factor in my "Even Power" theory is that if Cain Marko became the Juggernaut and inherited all the same things as Hulk minus one, say the healing, and could be damaged, it wouldn't be even. Where he inherited something equal or better (immunity to physical harm through magic) he is not at a loss. So where he has essentially, every talent Hulk has (healing for Hulk/Immunity for Jug, Infinite Strength for Hulk/Amazingly high level of strength for Jug.) it's equal. The speed and agility factor do not matter as Juggernaut doesn't need these due to having the immunity. No matter how quick or tricky you hit him, with his magic protection it wont effect him.
So they're trading off talents.
War Hulk: Celestial immunity (equal), infinate strength (superior), celestial armour (equal), weaponry and speed/agility (which as noted is null and void against Juggernaut seeing as he is immune unless it was to avoid Juggernaut's attacks.)
Juggernaut: Magical immunity (equal), high strength (inferior), magical armour (equal).
So with the exception of weaponry which couldn't really harm Juggernaut anyway if he's as immune as legend says, he only has speed and agility which could really only be used to dodge.
Therefore showing that War Hulk VS Juggernaut was the closest thing to a fair fight yet. Technically and with respect to powers owned by both.
If it was straight up Hulk Vs Juggernaut and they were equal, Juggernaut minus the magical immunity just as Hulk wouldn't have immunity, then once again Hulk would have the upper hand. Because he is much stronger, he has a healing factor and he is faster.
That is why this stalemate (which is how it would be for arguments sake) is unjust, because Juggernaut has a pretty much unwaivable immunity. He also lacks the strength to dispose of Hulk. So Juggernaut is a very unbalanced character also. Which is why this debate has gone on for so long.
-AC