Juggernaut or The Hulk?

oh, I'd expect a valid point on Jugg's side from a guy named "juggernaut74".......

jugg74: who begged for their life against Onslaught?? Hulk or Jugg's??
who has infinite power?? who heals at a constant rate? who is loads quicker for his size?who is marvel's top-tier??

you guys can say juggs is physically invulnerable until your face turns red but like I say "physical invulnerability" is nullified and considered a void point because it's "overridden" all the time..Wasn't Gladiator supposedley physically invulnerable?? How about Onslaughts armor? How about Thor??Hulk beat the crap out of all three of them bar none..You can't just beat Hulk with just physical invulnerability and immense strength alone, you need at least smarts, a variety of powers, a power which drains gamma radiation causing hulk to revert back to banner, or Beyonder/Galactus type cosmic scaled strength...

Jugg has none of those, just invulnerability, and strength, that's not enough to stop the hulk especially an immensly ticked off one..as we've seen oh so much in the past..The hulk is in the forefront of all knock down, blow for blow, drag-out type of fights...But this point can be argued to death...

Interesting concept you have there. But Juggy has none of the powers you mentioned and still managed to knock Hulk out. Whats your point? As my previous post stated Hulk never put Juggy out of commision in a fight on the otherhand Juggy has. So just deal with it.

Oh and can someone answer my questions I posted earlier? If you can do the math.

Jugg74 you have a good points there. I vote for Juggernaut until I see Hulk Clearly beat him in a fight which has never happened before. On his own power that is. Until then Juggy actually has the lead in my mind.

er juggie knocked out prof hulk, were talking savage juggie 74, please dont start up debates that took pages to explain already.
* sarkastic u keep hitting the valid point of the argument. well done.
* talon right. please try to understand my posts as i end up repeating what i say as im constantly missinterpreted, juggie is not a developed enough character to say hes totally invulnerable, that was my point, and if u use comics, hes now dead ( however bad the writing) and was minutely powerful in comparison to hulk in those latter comics. hulk is the top bruiser, and despite some weird hiccups along the way is written to prove this. now juggie is incredibly durable, with unknown magic to back this up, and able to move in a direction without being stopped, but another point i made is he will be used to steer the story, if hulk is, i dont know in the wrong juggie is a character that can be used to punish him, if juggie is causing havoc and they need him stopped then hulk will do it, and as he has no strength limit, anyone stronger is gonna be surpassed very quickly ( if the writers remember), and hulks healing is gonna make it hard for juggie and all to really harm him. and this tire thing is lame and would not happen, after all hulk would just get pised again and keep amashing.
* CAN WE ALL FORGET THE PROF HULK BEING KNOCKED OUT BY JUGGIE THING, IT REALLY BARES NO MEANING ON A SAVAGE HULK V JUGGIE BATTLE.

also why do u americans say math , surely its plural??????

Originally posted by juggernaut74
Interesting concept you have there. But Juggy has none of the powers you mentioned and still managed to knock Hulk out. Whats your point? As my previous post stated Hulk never put Juggy out of commision in a fight on the otherhand Juggy has. So just deal with it.

Now if you are going to bring Professor Hulk, then Im going to bring War Hulk into the picture for you! War Hulk can beat the crap out juggernaut and would of killed him if it wasnt for that other big green guy, lol.

You didnt read my post then Your right War Hulk can Kick Juggies @ss I am not denying that. I said Hulk on his own power did not Kick Juggies @ss. Hulk is gonna kick @ss any way you look at it. I just think Juggy in his oldschool form can go toe to toe with savage Hulk. Professsor Hulk was no challenge for him but savage Hulk would have been a whole different game.

Originally posted by Tough Guy
* talon right. please try to understand my posts as i end up repeating what i say as im constantly missinterpreted, juggie is not a developed enough character to say hes totally invulnerable, that was my point, and if u use comics, hes now dead ( however bad the writing) and was minutely powerful in comparison to hulk in those latter comics. hulk is the top bruiser, *

Developed character or not this is a fight between there powers like you said, and juggernauts power is to be unstoppable invincible immeasurable strength. Loop holes loop holes thats the writers fault OJ. Yet i don't quite remember where juggernaut invulnerability was denied.

Now hulk can feel pain but juggernaut doesn't. Quit putting limits on juggernauts strength and his durability, as hulk will not reach it as fast as lightning. Since they have both fought each other before they will not make the same mistakes so it is hard to predict what would happen in a new fight.

Now i know hulk can throw Juggernaut i am not denying that but would he if he has unlimited strength. The only reason i could think of why he throw him the first time is because he knew juggernaut was too much for him to handle at the time. Given more time he could have "reached juggernauts power, then surpass it" and as some of you say overcome juggernaut.

The more and more i talk here i give hulk more of a chance, yet i still don't think he has what it takes to beat him. (maybe thats why the hulk writers never had a clear cut winner between the two)

[B] CAN WE ALL FORGET THE PROF HULK BEING KNOCKED OUT BY JUGGIE THING, IT REALLY BARES NO MEANING ON A SAVAGE HULK V JUGGIE BATTLE. [B]

Agreed, it serves no real purpose, just as War serves no real purpose. (hulk was weaker and juggernaut won and hulk was made stronger and he won)

juggernauts weaknesses

1) magic (if strong enough.)
2) physics (if not wearing his helmet.)

hulks weaknesses

1) not the brightest crayon in the box.
2) strength if strong enough.

Juggernauts strengths

1) His supernatural strength and incapability of feeling pain.
2) Indestructible forcefield (rarely uses protects personal space) 😄

Hulks strengths

1) potential for unlimited strength
2) very quick healing factor

Now i put basic strengths and weaknesses on the table do what you wish with them (for those of you who don't know)

Juggernaut has greater durability and starts off with a big advantage on strength. Hulk can take everything, and give it back eventually

OJ some writers just screw up, we are talking about powers not how writers screw up powers. I never brought up the times where hulk got knock out by physical power. Why bring up the few books where juggernauts power isn't being taken seriously.

I'm not even going to address onslaught. That was crap galore, The hulk part was kinda cool

Yes if we look at the current book juggernaut is presumed dead cry

I dont think he died. He just was teleported into a blackhole with the Brotherhood to make sure notcurne was ok and to protect her from them. Juggy will be back.

I say presumed dead so i dont start a riot up in this place but yes he is coming back. Marvel has had plans for juggernaut for a while before Chuck even got his stupid little hands on him.

Well, I wouldn't immediately say he's dead either, or Black Tom, or any of them. I'd say they're currently MIA, since they were simply sucked into a black hole. It can be said that it either killed them, or sent them to unknown parts, who knows. It's up to the next writer on how to deal with it. Marvel did have plans for Juggernaut before Austen screwed it up, but we'll see if they continue with their plans or keep Juggernaut on hold a little longer (look out for the new Weapon X series soon).

fair points talon, however i stick by the fact that as juggie is really a bit part character his power is less easy to prove / explain clearly than hulks, who has done much more, beaten and lost to the same guys etc. now marvel may well bring him back 10 times more powerful, but id only like this if theyre gonna do that to every one, as why should he get special tratment, the trouble with this is then u end up wth a universe filled with overpowered heros ( remind u of anywhere).
* juggie has great super human strength, but is not described as unlimited, hence why i keep arguing that point, against hulk who is well documented to have limitless strength potential. and please dont bring juggies forcefield up it stinks of pointless writing, ie , if ur invulnerable to pain, and being hurt etc, surely i dont know, the ability to become invisable or something would be more acceptable than a bloody forcefield that technically u dont need??????my point here is thats how guys like me read into it that clearly juggie cant be physically invulnerable or else why have a forcefield to protect him. ( and dont give me this personal space crap, u telling me marvel writers sat down and tought it through that of all characters this guy needs to have a yard of free space around him for his social and mental development????)

Originally posted by Tough Guy
fair points talon, however i stick by the fact that as juggie is really a bit part character his power is less easy to prove / explain clearly than hulks, who has done much more, beaten and lost to the same guys etc. now marvel may well bring him back 10 times more powerful, but id only like this if theyre gonna do that to every one, as why should he get special tratment, the trouble with this is then u end up wth a universe filled with overpowered heros ( remind u of anywhere).
* juggie has great super human strength, but is not described as unlimited, hence why i keep arguing that point, against hulk who is well documented to have limitless strength potential. and please don't bring juggies forcefield up it stinks of pointless writing, ie , if ur invulnerable to pain, and being hurt etc, surely i don't know, the ability to become invisable or something would be more acceptable than a bloody forcefield that technically u don't need??????my point here is thats how guys like me read into it that clearly juggie cant be physically invulnerable or else why have a forcefield to protect him. ( and don't give me this personal space crap, u telling me marvel writers sat down and tought it through that of all characters this guy needs to have a yard of free space around him for his social and mental development????)

hahaha yer right, it is lame to have an indestructible being that has a forcefield but i doesn't really take definite shape like magnetos forcefield. It comes from his own power i think the writers tried to get to the point of saying that juggernauts power is so great waves of energy start to illuminate off of him, Yet it is still pretty lame.

Yeah it is documented that he has unlimited strength yet we have never seen it. If he has unlimited strength he should be able to rip off galactus's arm and beat him with it, 😆 rofl, but i don't see that happening. (im joking please dont take me serious as i never am)

I know he braced what was it 150 million or 250 million ton mountain or something i cant remember. That alone is extremely impressive even though i hear it was about to crush him, but that hundred n something million is not unlimited (you see what im saying?) unlimited is alot. It would take alot of raging to go forever in strength.

I know juggernaut has a certain stopping point. How i know this? For a while he was in search of a second gem to double his power, but we don't know where his stopping point is. (once again do you see what im saying?)

In the comic where gambit returned juggernauts armour was hanging off of him he was at least 10 times weaker he could hardly talk. He ripped off half of a building and threw it completely through an other building.(and he did it with ease) that was uncanny xmen 361 very impressive strength i would say (in my opinion 😄 )

This debate is to even to call right down the middle, there pasts are to scrambled up with juggernaut knocking out a weaker hulk, or hulk beating juggernaut all across Africa, or it just getting interrupted. Also we cant base there fight off of the same people that they have fought in the past. I mean juggernaut beat the crap out of thing and hulk goes toe to toe with him (for a while 😉 ) So basing this on the onslaught encounter isn't really fair. (think about it, it was personal) also juggernaut hasn't been in alot of comics as hulk has been in how many 😉 we can get an estimation on there strength but nothing solid.

mountain was 150 billion tons

i knew it was something like that 😉

Hulk in his best state can't be so much as phased by juggernaut, on the other hand there's no proof that juggernaut's invulnerability is actually 100%, especially since he's felt inclined to use his shield before (why else would he have it?) So I say Hulk could bust even that, and that's probably how the fight would end.

Originally posted by SarKastic_OJ
Linkalishish: What comic are "you" talking about?? Obviously not this one..

I hardly think the hulk "got scared" and hopped away, Thor was left in a heap of bloody mess, disorientated and dased, the hulk simply walked off..

[IMG][url=http://www.leaderslair.com/gammapeople/hulksmashes/hulk2001-3.html]

Thor #385 1991

That's the first thing I said at the begining of my post.

Hulk had his fill of Thor for the time being and ran away from the conflict. It's a good read...they fight almost the entire comic.

Originally posted by SarKastic_OJ
The comic ended there, the hulk overpowered Thor via getting rid of Mjolnir(however you spell it) and proceeding to kick his butt..Hulk left thor a bleeding, bloody, dazed and confused mess..Your comic analysis is dead wrong, hulk didn't "hop" away...He came, he saw, he kicked Thor's tail..That would make Hulk's(what?) eighth win over Thor..

Back to the Juggernaut debate, the only proof you have of Juggernaut's strength being infinite is "you not seeing his limit"..You've never seen (lets say) Apocalypses "limit" BUT his strength isn't deemed infinite, just because you've never seen his limit doesn't make his strength infinite you're just grasping straws saying that it is...I've [B]never read a bio, heard a writer, or any source of comic database say anything about Jugg's power being infinite, only fans say otherwise.

It's kind of like someone coming out of the blue and saying Superman's strength is infinite in a debate, hell we never saw him strain to pick up a planet, or punch a planet into pieces, we never saw HIS limit . But that fact has never been stated and why? because we never seen anything in his bios, comics, cards or writers for that matter saying his strength is infinite therefore we "assume" that his powers have some sort or limit "although" way beyond common "human" comprehension..Jugg's may be able to lift the heaviest mountain with little to no effort BUT until a writer, bio or some informative comic source brings it to light THEN WE CAN ASSUME his powers are just 1) Invulnerability 2)Immense physical strength, everything a comic-hero does is in some bio somewhere and infinite strength was never in Jugg's bio, QUIT GIVING HIM powers..Show me some form of writing that states Marcos power is non-stop and I'll close out my argument
on that issue altogether, but you won't because it doesn't exist...

Lastly, many hereos in the comic book have powers of Invulnerability, look at Rogue, Gladiator, and The Thing, yeah they are invulnerable but they go by "Human" aspects, things we can relate to like a tank blast or bullets, the bio's can't really determine that their invulnerability can withstand a hulk blow and why because hulk's strength/powers are undertermined thus you see guys like Gladiator grunt, groan and grimace when the hulk hits them iwth a devastating Hulk clap!! It's a comic for goodness sakes things like physical invulnerability gets "overridden" ALL THE TIME...In the end like I said before both hulk and Jugs rely on mostly physical strength to win a battle, and even though Jugg's strength may be alittle over Hulk's the hulk has the chance to equal and dwarf Jugg's power in a long lengthy fight...Bar none!!!

A wise man once told me, Logic and Fans don't mix...

Put it like this, if someone came up to me to prove that the hulk's strength is infinite I would show them biographies, cards, a depiction of hulk's strength rising when getting mad..What would you show them if they asked to prove is Jugg's strength infinite?? Him lifting a mountain...lol...no wait..him throwing Cap'n America?? [/B]

True about the infinite power bit, but regardless.....Juggernaut has sufficient strength to not only hurt the Hulk...but also to kill the Hulk.

You just placed Juggernaut in the same category as Rogue, Gladiator, and Thing. NONE of these characters have "invulnerability" to physical attacks. They may resist damage or have great indurance, but no where on any of your bios, cards, or comics will you read these characters powers as "invulnerable" especially to physical attacks.

Riiiiight. Now you're going as far as to say that Juggernaut's invulnerability is going to somehow "break" from Hulk's superior strength. 🙄

Juggernaut took a GodForce blast head on from Thor and just kept trucking along. If you're going to go as far as to say Hulk will just "break" this invulnerability that has taken blasts that send cosmic beings running for their life, then who's to say that Hulk would just get his ass handed to him before he even gets a chance to get mad?

Oh wait....the ladder one actually happened. 😉

I'm not "giving him powers" what I'm doing is using common sense. Juggernaut has never been proven too weak to perform a physical task....this includes physically overpowering a character who allegedly possesses infinite strength. Juggernaut has also never had his invulnerability to physical damage "broken" or nullified or anything of the sort, but you're going to go ahead an assume that Hulk will just get real mad and break it. 🙄

Congrats, you won the whole "Juggernaut doesn't have infinite strength arguement"

Now please explain how that helps Hulk win this fight without being War Hulk or without a Psychic backlash.