I have always ponder why so many cultures develop the idea of a higher being. The Summerians had their own gods, the Mayans had their deities, the earlier Chinese Dinasties had their own gods. How did these ideas develop in the mind of the so many different cultures in so many different places of the world?
I seriously doubt that the idea of gods was created in the minds of men. There is something out there that we still haven't understand. It seems to me that God, and culture, and tradition go together. With the development of Technology humanity is moving far apart from their old traditional Myths. But is that a good thing? I don't think so! Humanity always needs Mythology. Is a part of us! It is also tradition and is also what makes us humans. The fact that we are always seeking answers in the unknown.
Sometimes I tend to think that God wants us to keep investigating the world we live in. I also tend to think that God wants us to go in depth about Philosophy. I don't think God is hidding from us. In my view he wants us to get to him throught philosophical thinking. Theological arguments are a good start. I think that Science and Religion should work together to find that being called God.
Cherrywings> Well, you have now. 🙂
WindDancer> I see no other place than the minds of humans were gods could’ve been created.
In hunter-gathered societies you have spirits. They impersonated “the forces” important to early cultures, such as game and the seasons. Most spirits were neither good nor evil, but simply there, to help or trick humans.
Only with urbanisation do you see the advent of more formalised religions, with strict hierarchies. We settle, we start to grow crops. We need seed for the next spring, which we stored. Someone needed to keep track of the storage, the “building of life”, that place which were to insure food the next year. Can you not see how that building turned into a temple? How the storage-keeper became a priest?
As the early settlements grew into greater civilisations so you got a greater pantheon of gods. You had a king/emperor/pharaoh so you also had an über-god, like Zeus, Odin or Jupiter. These temple-religions had gods that were still very human, that waged war on each other, and interfered with human life. But could not read over minds.
More complexity is added. Stricter hierarchies in societies, great difference between poor and rich, ruler and the ruled. The prophet-religions (Buddhism, Christianity and Islam) are all fairly new inventions. But now you move towards monotheistic religions, with omnipotent and all-powerful gods who CAN read your (the citizens) mind, and bid you to obey the ruler.
Not invented by man?
I think so!
pray > BF
The Omega> In an anthropological view that might work about the farmers storing the crops in the temple and the keeper becoming the priest. But that's not the argument I'm trying to get to. My question is more of Spiriturality question. I mean whether earlier civiliazations were egalitarian, foragers, or agrarians they still somehow were spiritual people. The point I had in mind is how did these people develop a spiritual mind? You can't say they were ignorants and just invented some religion or something in order to believe in some higher being. There had to be something that trigger that belief in mythological beings.
Yes, societies became more urban and they started to build great cities, and also religion became more organize. But going farther back into time humans were more connected with nature. What was that connection between humans and nature that develop spirituality? You can say they were superstitious people. But what made them susperstious in the first place? It wasn't because their science was very primitive (after all the early humans were very technological people. They made tools and discover the wheel) The point I'm trying to make is that the early societies had a strong bond with nature. Could it be that God used Nature to communicate with them? I understand people don't believe in God (that's fine by me I have no quarrels with those people) But I'm sure that we all agree that nature exists. Does Spirituality derive from nature? Does Nature derive from God?
Originally posted by finti
Yes, in Norwegian dog is HUND, God is Gud. So that coincidence works only in english
I'm English, so it works for me.
And yes, Human's created god(s) to explain certain phenomenon they were seeing, however the belief in a higher existence is a world wide phenomenon, so we can't be all wrong?!
Gorgoroth> My reply was supposed to be humorous. You know “Hah hah”?
WindDancer> But your question on spirituality can’t be disconnected from the circumstances in which spirituality arose.
“The point I had in mind is how did these people develop a spiritual mind?”
Before the advent of science mankind had no way of explaining the unexplainable. Why does it rain? What is thunder? Why does a rainbow form? Will we catch game today? Why does the seasons change?
What separates us from the rest of the animal kingdom is our self-awareness. We’re conscious of past/present/future. Now take that consciousness and add unexplained phenomena. You get a “new” kind of conscience in the form of spirits. We projected our own will and conscience to that which we could not explain – as if it somehow acted AS us, yet different, as the stone/wind/thunder were not humans. The stone was now supposed to the conscious, as was the wind, the storm, the Moon.
This is the early trigger in mythos. And it had a lot to do with not being able to explain what happened – but being aware of ones own conscience.
Reborn Again> Once most humans believed the Earth was flat. They were wrong. Once most humans believed Earth was the center of the Universe. They were wrong. Once people believed the Universe was created 6000 years ago. They were wrong.
What the majority BELIEVES doesn’t amount to any facts.
The Omega> You wrote: "Before the advent of science mankind had no way of explaining the unexplainable. Why does it rain? What is thunder? Why does a rainbow form? Will we catch game today? Why does the seasons change?"
I'm not sure, but I think that they knew that the thunder, rainbow, rain all came from one source...which is nature. Like I said earlier the early civilizations beliefs always use nature as a description of the unknown. The ancient myths were designed to harmonize the mind and the body. The mind can ramble off in strange ways, and want things the body does not want. The myths and rites were means of putting the mind in accord with the body and the way of life in accord with the way nature dictates life. Sure the mind can project imaginatory things, but the mind can also reason and use logic to understand. Spirituality is something much more wider and much more in depth than imagination. A well harmonize mind can be very spiritual, maybe our ancestors did some rituals that helped keep the body and mind at peace. Who really knows?
Originally posted by The Omega
Reborn Again> Once most humans believed the Earth was flat. They were wrong. Once most humans believed Earth was the center of the Universe. They were wrong. Once people believed the Universe was created 6000 years ago. They were wrong.
What the majority BELIEVES doesn’t amount to any facts.
Quite true, but despite that, there are always been a faith in a higher ascension/being. . . that there has to be a better world than this one.
WindDancer> Define “Nature”. Was there anything back then which was NOT “nature.” I doubt early man defined all around him/her as “nature”. What did they know of what lay beyond their usual lands? We can hardly grasp how they perceived the world, now, today, thousand of years and telescopes, microscopes and telephones later.
Myths and rites were a way of trying to control that which could not be controlled. Like the weather, the seasons, and game. If you lived by the ocean, you needed the ocean to be calm to go fishing – naturally the ocean and water would become “spiritualized” if you like. That way humans could try to “communicate” with the ocean and the water and the wind to appease them.
”Sure the mind can project imaginatory things, but the mind can also reason and use logic to understand.”
But that requires knowledge. If you look at Earth if LOOKS flat – logic would dictate that it is flat – only we KNOW better today.
”Spirituality is something much more wider and much more in depth than imagination.” It’s merely a way of trying to control/appease/communicate with that which is beyond our control.
Back then our early ancestors created rites to, for example, keep the ocean calm for fishing. Or to guide the hunters to good game.
Today religious people pray to a God, trying to convince him/her to do what they want – to change that which is beyond their control.
Reborn again> We don't know when the idea of an afterlife arose.
But death and what lies beyond is beyond our control – and to some extend I think – beyond our understanding. Again we create something – the belief in an afterlife – to help our conscience deal with something we don’t understand.
That would be universal. The lacking ability to understand and deal with death would be the same for humans everywhere. That universality just shows that we’re all humans – not that there is anything beyond that.
The Omega> My best definition is this one....Nature: the physical world including all natural phenomena and living things. The forces and processes collectively that control the phenomena of the physical world independently of human volition or intervention. But you see that's a definition use today. Back then the early humans (IMO) consider nature to be the same as the unknown.
You wrote: "Myths and rites were a way of trying to control that which could not be controlled. Like the weather, the seasons, and game. If you lived by the ocean, you needed the ocean to be calm to go fishing – naturally the ocean and water would become “spiritualized” if you like. That way humans could try to “communicate” with the ocean and the water and the wind to appease them."
Not necessary, I don't think the rites were to control the powers of nature, but rather to understand them and be ONE with them. In other words to unified Human with Nature.
You wrote: "But that requires knowledge. If you look at Earth if LOOKS flat – logic would dictate that it is flat – only we KNOW better today"
It also requires a vast amount of EXPERIENCE can we as humans know where all of our experiences come from? Try the philosophers they've been trying to understand where does all experience comes from.
You also wrote: "Today religious people pray to a God, trying to convince him/her to do what they want – to change that which is beyond their control."
No, I'm sorry The Omega but I don't think that religious people (or belivers if you like) are trying to manipulate God. Those that pray to God for rewards and prices aren't consider religious in my book. Whereas those that seek peace and understanding can be consider truly religious and very spiritual people. Is about peace and love for each other. Not for personal benefit.
Winddancer> I don’t think we disagree fundamentally on what our ancestors wanted to do with their rites. I say communicate and control, you say a search to unify and to understand.
I still believe there was an attempt at controlling, through sacrifices, dance and prayer. You use the word unify, but I think it amounts to essentially the same thing. If you were ONE with the ocean you could understand it and communicate with it and ask it to be calm for fishing.
We can build our knowledge today on the experiences of hundreds of years of science to start with. Our early ancestors didn’t have that knowledge and science to help them.
But then why do people pray in your book? You can seek peace and understanding without being religious at all.
(Bedtime for the European - I'll be back probably tomorrow 🙂)
Originally posted by The Omega
Reborn again> We don't know when the idea of an afterlife arose.
But death and what lies beyond is beyond our control – and to some extend I think – beyond our understanding. Again we create something – the belief in an afterlife – to help our conscience deal with something we don’t understand.
That would be universal. The lacking ability to understand and deal with death would be the same for humans everywhere. That universality just shows that we’re all humans – not that there is anything beyond that.
Without faith, we'd all go insane.