Originally posted by Wolfie
How long would this peace last? I would get out the second I'm given the chance. The Architect said in Reloaded that they can pull the plug, killing off the human race and find a new energy source. I don't wanna be one of those people.
Its nearly impossible to find an energy resource in that scorched earth. The only way would probably to go above the black sky and build some solar genrating machines
Originally posted by The Omega
Kalantiaw> But you just claimed it was human nature to wage war. Now you agree that people will pick peace. So which is it? War or peace? Or are you telling me it’s human nature to wage war, and we’re just lying when we choose peace? Or…. ?
“Some people out there”?? Who? Fanatics? Well, can we agree that fanatics are not right in the head? If we can, then the easy conclusion is that war is madness 🙂
If it’s fanatics and leaders who go to war to either force their beliefs down our throats or coerce others to do as they want, to gain power, then it’s not human nature… because that would have to apply to ALL of us…
But yes. The Oracle was right. What do men with power want? More power… As you point out… most of us humans here on planet Earth don’t have power to start or end wars.
ask any soldier in war, anybody in war if they want peace or war... what do you think they'll pick..? do they contradict themselves despite the fact that they are indeed fighting in a war, they also want peace... the only road to peace is heavily laden with war... take for example the matrix... for 100 years they have fought these machines... for what..? peace, which they achieved... but what happens next..? as most of us know somewhere along the story in the matrix online, a civil war... we may pick peace over war, but the only way to peace is through war as witnessed in the matrix trilogy...
20th century
The Omega>Two world wars, countless other wars (Vietnam, Korea, Gulf wars, civil wars etc. etc). AIDS, famine, hunger-plagues, apartheid, racism, anti-Semitism, segregation, fanaticism…
Perfect? Hardly…
true but take my current situation - im living in a peaceful stable country and society (england). fairly comfortable life, good food and quality of life, education etc.
its quite possible that if i was in the matrix then i would have a similar existence.
outside in zion i would live in a poor environment in a life of hardship within a civil war.
id rather stay in the matrix and take the risk of the bad things you mentioned but with the good chance of living a good life.
Kalatiaw> Sorry, been quite busy as of late –
Okay, so I should ask any soldier. I’m confident ANY soldier would want peace – And they do NOT decide whether to wage war or not. That’s done by old men, who can hide in secure bunkers.
The war with the machines could’ve been avoided if the world-leaders had accepted machine independence. The world-leaders didn’t. The road to war is only laden with war, when leaders want more – when men with power want more power.
You – however – didn’t answer my question. “But you just claimed it was human nature to wage war. Now you agree that people will pick peace. So which is it?”
Mook> “id rather stay in the matrix and take the risk of the bad things you mentioned but with the good chance of living a good life.”
Take the risk of world wars, countless other wars (Vietnam, Korea, Gulf wars, civil wars etc. etc). AIDS, famine, hunger-plagues, apartheid, racism, anti-Semitism, segregation, fanaticism???
You’d not be LIVING a good life. You’d be stuck in a pod, liquefied corpses being injected into you. You’d be dreaming the ”good life.”
The world isn’t just about me. You’d have billions of people living the “bad life”. I’d rather be where I could really (!) make a difference.
Originally posted by The Omega
Kalatiaw> Sorry, been quite busy as of late –Okay, so I should ask any soldier. I’m confident ANY soldier would want peace – And they do NOT decide whether to wage war or not. That’s done by old men, who can hide in secure bunkers.
The war with the machines could’ve been avoided if the world-leaders had accepted machine independence. The world-leaders didn’t. The road to war is only laden with war, when leaders want more – when men with power want more power.
You – however – didn’t answer my question. “But you just claimed it was human nature to wage war. Now you agree that people will pick peace. So which is it?”
old men in bunkers believe that the only way to achieve more power is thru war... wether or not i pick peace, as a soldier i would have no other choice but to fight... people will pick peace, but it won't be evrlasting because it's in our nature to wage war... we FIGHT to keep the peace, we FIGHT to achieve peace... there's no going around it... wether they pick peace, we WILL wage war... it is inevitable...
BTW, i find our debates intellectually stimulating... keep it up...
Kalantiaw> Okay, so you believe it’s “human nature” to wage war. Here’s the next question: Why?
You see, if we were inherently war-mongers, every single one of us, wouldn’t we have wiped ourselves out with clubs and spears before we managed to build a single hut?
And it’s not just “there is no going around it”. If one old man “G W Bush” hadn’t decided to go to war with Iraq, there wouldn’t have been any war in Iraq. And that was not fighting to keep the peace.
If the European leaders in the 1930’s hadn’t been so lenient towards Hitler, he’d never have dared to start invading other countries. War doesn’t just erupt like “that” (snaps fingers).
You DO, as a soldier, have a choice whether or not to fight – but down your gun and refuse! I know there is such a thing as court-marshall, and why do you think “the old men” have made laws, so they can kill you if you refuse to wage their war?
No – I do not think it’s human nature to wage war.
The Omega>Mook> “id rather stay in the matrix and take the risk of the bad things you mentioned but with the good chance of living a good life.”
Take the risk of world wars, countless other wars (Vietnam, Korea, Gulf wars, civil wars etc. etc). AIDS, famine, hunger-plagues, apartheid, racism, anti-Semitism, segregation, fanaticism???
You’d not be LIVING a good life. You’d be stuck in a pod, liquefied corpses being injected into you. You’d be dreaming the ”good life.”
The world isn’t just about me. You’d have billions of people living the “bad life”. I’d rather be where I could really (!) make a difference.
i am the most important person in the world (imo) and so would be quite happy to be dreaming the good life - ignorance is bliss.
The Omega> i'll tell you why... SURVIVAL. and just like the programs inherent to the programming of the matrix, some are prominent and some are not. so is the desire to wage war. it is in our nature to do so though it's more prominent in others. i agree that war doesn't erupt just like that. there are peace keepers. but what if the negotiations failed, what then? more negotiations? i think not.
and as a soldier, i will not choose court marshall before fighting and be labeled as unpatriotic and cowardly. signing up in the army in the first place would've been stupid if i don't want to fight. "old men" made these laws not to kill, but to put blame and guilt.
and the gulf war 2 is the perfect example that war is in our blood. everything that could be done to prevent this war was done but still america invaded. after all the inspections and pleas not to invade a sovereign country, it still happened.
there is no going around it. war will be waged, wether for survival or more power, it will happen.
Mook> Ignorance is bliss? So you prefer that people lie to you, if the truth is too harsh? If your lover cheated on you, wouldn’t you want to know the truth? If your best friend stole from you, wouldn’t you rather know?
Kalantiaw> Then I’ll tell you this: What do all humans have in common? We strive to make a livelihood. We need food, water, air, shelter, and company. That’s the only thing you can truly say about human nature. That all of us – every single specimen of homo sapiens sapiens have this one thing in common: Our attempt to make a livelihood.
We’re not inherently evil. It’s not in our nature to wage war either. Waging war doesn’t quench your thirst, fill your stomach or procreate the species.
War is a consequence of the way we do make our livelihood today. When we settled in small villages some 12.000 years ago, we stopped moving to where the food was. What if the harvest failed one year? Maybe we should then go and steal the food from the neighbouring village? Uh, we also need to protect ourselves from the neighbours! Voila – the first soldier was born.
Then the guardian of the grain, the first priest and leader, wanted even MORE food for himself. And more land.
So you see – it’s not human nature. War is derived from the WAY we make our livelihood today.
“and as a soldier, i will not choose court marshall before fighting and be labeled as unpatriotic and cowardly.”
But that is then because “unpatriotic” and “coward” have cleverly been made the consequence of your choice. Clever “old men”, aren’t they? What if you think the war is downright wrong?
War is not in our blood. YOU did not choose whether or not to invade Iraq. Neither did I. Nor did the soldiers and civilians who died. It’s in the blood of the “guardians of the grain”, the leaders – those who can decide whether or not to wage war.
Free your mind 😉
>Omega -- while I would love to agree with you and like your explanation, I fear that war IS our nature -- have you ever watched a group of 2-year-old interacting? Fighting seems much more "natural" than cooperation, and it takes a lot of work by parents, teachers, to make us "civil". Just think "Lord of the Flies"...
We didn't all kill ourselves early in civilization because logic told us that if we could overcome the urge to kill each other and cooperate, we would be better off.
I'm hopeful that the same logic will eventually allow to overcome these tendencies as expressed on a national scale, but I'm not holding my breath.
Life is a battle whether you are a wage slave or fighting a real war. I would prefer that the battle not be imaginary. Pain makes you realize that you are alive and appreciate the small comforts you have. Out of The Matrix for me!
these "guardians of the grain", these "leaders" do dictate our course. but if war is not in our nature, why is it still here, in our midst, in our society? you think people in africa fight for "grains", for "livelyhood", for a way of living? they do it to survive. if the other tribe is weak, it is purged. you say it's in the blood of these "guardians of the grain" and talk about them as if they aren't part of the human race. these "guardians" invented the first soldier to survive the one year of failed crops, either to gather or protect. and this does quench my thirst, fill my stomach, and the survival of my people.
and it doesn't matter what i think. it doesn't matter what you think. all that matters is what our leaders think. and no, man is not inherently evil. evil is planted into the soul. but what if you enemy thinks you're evil, and you think they're evil? i doubt the both of you will want to negotiate. no one of you would want to back down. what is left is battle.
The Omega>Mook> Ignorance is bliss? So you prefer that people lie to you, if the truth is too harsh? If your lover cheated on you, wouldn’t you want to know the truth? If your best friend stole from you, wouldn’t you rather know?
there is a big difference between someone stealing from me and the entire world being an elaborate hoax.
i would rather live the comfortable lie (matrix) than extremely uncomfortable truth (zion)