Starting at Uncanny X-Men 94 (excluding the Giant Size) and moving on to only 127 I have 24 (that number can go + or - a bit as I fine tune it)... do I need to keep going with this? If that ratio remains consistent and we say Wolverine has 6000 (the exact number is probably higher, I doubt he has 1500 issues of trades and reprints) appearances, that is going to leave me with around 4300 examples when all is said and done....
So let's compare Batmans record:
(Win Loss Draw)
Vs Sensei 1 0 0
vs Shiva 1 0 2
Vs BG 2 0 1
Vs Azreal 2 1* 0 (*this was after Azreal had mastered The System and had superhuman level stats on the level of Spiderman)
Vs Prometheus 1 1* 0 (loss was off panel)
Vs Hawkman 1 0 0
Vs David Cain 1 0 2
Vs Zeiss 2 0 1
Vs Rais Al Ghul 3 1 2
Vs Bane 2 1 1 (or more)
Vs KG Beast 3 0 1
Vs NKV Demon 2 0 1 (can't remember if Bats lost or stalmated here)
Vs Katana 1 0 0
Vs DS 1 1 0
And that's not counting his wins against impressive no names either.
Wolvies record:
Win over Cap- his most impressive win
Dead even with Shang Chi
Losing record against DD
Losing record against Elektra
Losing record against Punisher *not an MA fight but lost due to gadgets*
Losing record against Nick Fury
Losing record against Daken
Losing record against a deer
Wow, impressive.
Originally posted by Letters
So let's compare Batmans record:
(Win Loss Draw)
Vs Sensei 1 0 0
vs Shiva 1 0 2
Vs BG 2 0 1
Vs Azreal 2 1* 0 (*this was after Azreal had mastered The System and had superhuman level stats on the level of Spiderman)
Vs Prometheus 1 1* 0 (loss was off panel)
Vs Hawkman 1 0 0
Vs David Cain 1 0 2
Vs Zeiss 2 0 1
Vs Rais Al Ghul 3 1 2
Vs Bane 2 1 1 (or more)
Vs KG Beast 3 0 1
Vs NKV Demon 2 0 1 (can't remember if Bats lost or stalmated here)
Vs Katana 1 0 0
Vs DS 1 1 0And that's not counting his wins against impressive no names either.
Wolvies record:
Win over Cap- his most impressive win
Dead even with Shang Chi
Losing record against DD
Losing record against Elektra
Losing record against Punisher *not an MA fight but lost due to gadgets*
Losing record against Nick Fury
Losing record against Daken
Losing record against a deerWow, impressive.
That is a list of largely irrelevant B and C list fighters. Wolverine has dozens of victories of that caliber (and higher). I was merely looking at top 10 caliber earth based heroes (ignoring cosmics like Mantis and Gamora, and earth based "old masters" like Izo, Po and Stick... and Wolverine has wins over some from both of those categories as well). There are tons of skilled fighters that Wolverine has beaten that are below the top 10 parameters. Panther, Psylocke (who are were actually on some posters top 10 MA list once Iron Fist got upgraded to ubre tier), Silver Samurai, Shatterstar, Raza, Nemesis, Lady Deathstrike, even Zaran and Razorfist are better than Ziess, KGBeast and NKV Demon, and you start naming guys like that you can go on virtually indefinitely.
Prior to the reboot DC's top 10 was something like (just looking at standard continuity no Karate Kids, Nemesis Kid or Batman 1million): Sensei, Dragon, Shiva, Cass, Turner, Black Canary, Connor Hawke, Batman, Tommy Jagger, Constantine Drakon
Batman has no legit wins over any of those top ten. He's beaten Shiva because she was mind controlled, and stalemated her every other time they've exchanged (some of which were no longer canon). He may or may not have gotten the edge over Cass in a spar, and had the edge in their first encounter... but that was merely a conversation between the two (fighting was the only way she could communicate at the time). I have them tied at one, neither of the other two exchanges count as fights. He also held his own against her in Batgirl 50. Batman did defeat Sensei... but only because in spite of his skill he has terrible stamina and endurance. Batman has lost to Bronze Tiger, and held his own with him on second encounter before being taken out with a tranq, He also held his own against Dragon. But both the Dragon and Tiger examples are pre crisis.
Shang-Chi almost knocked Wolverine off the roof of a tower in a training season. I'm not sure how that constitutes a victory, even ignoring that it was a training season and not a fight, if Wolverine had fallen... he would have been fine. Shang-Chi was trying to teach Wolverine, Wolverine came to him to learn. They weren't trying to beat each other up. Wolverine is 1-0 with Shang-Chi.
Elektra never beat Wolverine. She was getting better of a weakened mind controlled Wolverine, and probably would have beaten him had the fight been allowed to continue... but the hole Wolverine blew in the ship flooded the corridors with water and swept him away.
Nick Fury has never beaten Wolverine. HoM Nick Fury beat HoM Wolverine, but that is irrelevant. In standard continuity Wolverine has beaten Fury two or three times, and almost killed him recently.
Daredevil managed to drop Wolverine for two panels with a throat punch in a 2 on 1 fight in an Ennis comic. In EOTS he managed to momentarily break Wolverine's brain washing and remove the reason for the fight. And worst Wolverine is 1-1-1 with Daredevil, and considering the context behind that win (which even aside from being terrible Ennis BS forces us to assume that Wolverine was incapacitated by that punch and didn't get up immediately) it's a complete write off.
Wolverine and Daken are tied right now.
Punisher parked a steam roller on top of Wolverine after a team up (because some midgets gut his hamstrings with chainsaws... wtf), and shot Wolverine with a rocket launcher. Both in Ennis books. There real fights have finished before either of the could win, or Wolverine was the victor.
The dear was a ploy to teach is student a lesson.
Wolverine has legitimate wins over top 10 MAs, straight up victories that aren't the result of mind control, or merely the results of a sparring season / training match. Batman can't say the same thing, the best he can offer is that he has held his own against top 10 martial artists... but the fact is he never beats them.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
. . .Wolverine's fight career is not 90% against class 100s. This off-the-cuff comment is not worth the effort you're putting into justifying it.
90% was hyperbole to emphasis my stance and illuminate the discrepancy between the two statistics. That said disregarding fodder, and counting energy wielders for their damage equivalency, it's not that far off.
Originally posted by Juntai
I like how he makes up his own top tier and top ten listsand explains away all of Wolverine's losses against middle-range MA's, "written by Ennis! doesn't count!" "Yeah, Wolverine was getting his shit kicked in severely, but then plot saved him from a sure KO, doesn't count"
Originally posted by Juntai
I like how he makes up his own top tier and top ten listsand explains away all of Wolverine's losses against middle-range MA's, "written by Ennis! doesn't count!" "Yeah, Wolverine was getting his shit kicked in severely, but then plot saved him from a sure KO, doesn't count"
🙄
The "No PIS" Rule
PIS = Plot Induced Stupidity
At times, for the sake of the plot, characters that are immensely more powerful than their opponent will "job" to carry on the plot of the story, even though the characters powers and history would clearly show that they are more than capable of destroying their opponent. For this reason we have a No PIS Rule. This rule prohibits the use of such instances of PIS from being used as evidence in debates.
Full Capacity
It is assumed that each contestant will fight to his/her best ability, but still within the character's personality, unless specified otherwise. That means they will use any powers at their disposal. For example, even though The Flash doesn't clock each of his own opponents in the first millisecond in his own comic, it is assumed that is a viable tactic on this board since it is a proven fact that he possesses that level of speed.
It is also assumed that the characters fight at their optimum levels of ability - not explicitly weakened or unusually powered up for those who have variable power levels.
Ennis jobs out superheroes because he doesn't like them, the example cited has merely an example of that jobbing and character assassination... ergo it is dismissed as PIS. If you don't like me explaining these sorts of things to you and your ilk, then I suggest you guys start conforming to the forum rules and stop citing PIS. The rules are pretty clear. If I started going to Thor threads and saying "Thor was knocked out by a falling mast!" or Hulk threads and said "Hulk was choked out by a python!" or Surfer threads and saying "Surfer was knocked out by some farmers with hammers!" and I was legitimately using those feats as a reason for those characters losing a fight... I would get a warning for trolling and citing PIS, and if I kept doing it for six years I would probably get banned. You guys do the equivalent for Wolverine, but for some reason you assholes get free reign.
Originally posted by srankmissingninIf Hulk got choked out by a Python many times or had trouble with it hundreds of times in his career, I'd consider it a legitimate threat to him, and not PIS.
🙄The "No PIS" Rule
PIS = Plot Induced Stupidity
At times, for the sake of the plot, characters that are immensely more powerful than their opponent will "job" to carry on the plot of the story, even though the characters powers and history would clearly show that they are more than capable of destroying their opponent. For this reason we have a No PIS Rule. This rule prohibits the use of such instances of PIS from being used as evidence in debates.
Full Capacity
It is assumed that each contestant will fight to his/her best ability, but still within the character's personality, unless specified otherwise. That means they will use any powers at their disposal. For example, even though The Flash doesn't clock each of his own opponents in the first millisecond in his own comic, it is assumed that is a viable tactic on this board since it is a proven fact that he possesses that level of speed.
It is also assumed that the characters fight at their optimum levels of ability - not explicitly weakened or unusually powered up for those who have variable power levels.Ennis jobs out superheroes because he doesn't like them, the example cited has merely an example of that jobbing and character assassination... ergo it is dismissed as PIS. If you don't like me explaining these sorts of things to you and your ilk, then I suggest you guys start conforming to the forum rules and stop citing PIS. The rules are pretty clear. If I started going to Thor threads and saying "Thor was knocked out by a falling mast!" or Hulk threads and said "Hulk was choked out by a python!" or Surfer threads and saying "Surfer was knocked out by some farmers with hammers!" and I was legitimately using those feats as a reason for those characters losing a fight... I would get a warning for trolling and citing PIS, and if I kept doing it for six years I would probably get banned. You guys do the equivalent for Wolverine, but for some reason you assholes get free reign.
That's the difference, not getting free reign being a troll.
Originally posted by Juntai
If Hulk got choked out by a Python many times or had trouble with it hundreds of times in his career, I'd consider it a legitimate threat to him, and not PIS.That's the difference, not getting free reign being a troll.
Except it hasn't happened hundreds of times in Wolverine's career... it's happened a few dozen or so times in his seven thousand odd appearances, and usually there is context in the actual issue that explains it.
You're a troll, and a liar.
Originally posted by srankmissingninContext like "the writer of these entire runs sucks"? lol.
Except it hasn't happened hundreds of times in Wolverine's career... it's happened a dozen or so times in his seven thousand odd appearances, and usually there is context in the actual issue that explains it.You're a troll, and a liar.