Batman vs Wolverine

Will disagree as regards to Batman not crossing that line. I am sure you have read "Dark Knight Returns?" Need I say more? Whoa. AND "Dark Knight Strikes Back."

Re: Wolverine vs. Bullseye, are you sure about that? I stated that Bullseye is a better martial artist than Wolvie. In a pure hand to hand fight (which is what I am referencing - Wolvie's claws and skeleton give him a decided advantage), I am very willing to bet Bullseye is superior.

Re: Daredevil vs. Wolverine in speed...you are joking...right?

Re: Sabretooth vs. Wolverine in speed - has been stated by writers on more than one occasion. Will dig up issue and quote it in a bit (if I have time). If not in a few mins, then this evening 😉 Shoot, I thought it was common knowledge that Sabretooth was "bigger, faster, and stronger?"

he was fast enough to blindside Spider-Man with a grabbing maneuver, and you know about the spider-sense.

Horrible writing. Absolutely ridiculous. Wolverine cannot ever touch Spiderman. Spiderman only dodges bullets and his reflexes are quicker than a human's (and Wolverine is indeed human) by a factor of 15 🙄

His speed and reflexes are such that he has moved faster than trained enforcers' eyes could keep up.

Horrible writing as well. Do you know how fast one would have to move in order to be this quick? SABRETOOTH has been shown to move as a blur, not Wolverine (at least not consistently. apparently the writer whom you reference thinks otherwise). Wolverine gets tagged all of the time (punches, kicks, bullets, fists).

Re: Wolverine using Batman's technology, will have to agree to disagree. Weapons are one thing; developed technology is another.

Re: Batman inventing all of his technology - not sure I inferred that he did. If I did indeed do that, it was not my intent. Batman will tinker with existing technology as well as develop a good portion of his own - agree?

Re: Training allowing Wolverine to be on par with Batman, how does having covert ops training translate into being able to operate what Batman invents? No way! Pym, Reed Richards, Victor Von Doom, Starks - okay. Logan? No - and again, if so, how?

Re: Studying martial arts techniques equal in number to Batman? Hmm, you think so? Elektra routinely makes Wolverine look foolish. How superior is Lady Shiva to Batman?

Re: Outcome? Captain America might have a slight fighting edge over Batman, and I am assuming you are aware of Cap's fighting prowess...and that would be a long fight. You are suggesting that Wolverine is on par with Cap? God, you have seen such "average" martial artists such as Silver Samurai touch up Wolverine quite a bit, correct?

Again, Batman's brain is his best asset. His ability to think on his feet is nigh unmatched - how long did it take him to determine that Daredevil was blind during a fight, for example?

stick and stone are daredevil's mentors. they were heavily involved during the miller run. Bullseye really is a worse martial artist overall and he is slower than wolverine because apart from having his skeleton plated, bullseye has several adamantium prosthetics in place of bones. the difference is that wolvie has a healing factor and over a hundred years of training to back that up. batman would have a harder time.

Thank you for that, Darth Jello.

Never, you're not in a position to judge my writing abilities until you yourself can use "inferred" properly. The word you wanted was "imply." Even the Rhino knew that. Granted, he was a genius at the time, but still. 😉

I concede that martial artists equal to Batman have given Wolverine quite a hard time. However, Wolverine always won in the end. The last martial artist to completely humiliate and definitively defeat Wolverine in a battle was Lord Shingen Yashida, and Wolverine learned from that experience. Guess where Shingen is now? that's right, feeding worms.
Electra was beating up a wounded, confused man who thought he was a beast. He's better now, and just like with Shingen, he would be much harder to defeat than when he was a weaker, less self-assured man. (I realize that Greg Rucka, writer of the Wolverine relaunch, has made Wolverine less confident in the new series. In discussing Wolverine's mind-set and abilities, I am excluding Rucka's decision to regress Wolverine back into self-doubt and focusing on the Wolverine of past self-titled comics and every other comic in which he appears currently.)

Wolverine does not heavily rely on technology (aside from that which was used to augment his bones), but I have seen instances when he cobbled together an outfit and flame pack that allowed him to fool a bunch of ninjas into thinking he was Johnny Storm. He has demonstrated impressive improvisation skills, and therefore I believe that if he needed to match the Batman in a gadget-fight, he could use his numerous connections (the Avengers, the Fantastic Four, and oh yes, the X-Men) to supply him with what he needs. This would only be to even the score a little. Wolverine doesn't need to be as adept with toys and human methods of detection, for he was born with numerous and significant advantages over the Batman.

You doubt that Wolverine has taken Spider-Man off-guard in spite of his spider-sense? Read the storyline early in the Spider-Man (volume 1) series that features Wolverine and the Wendigo. I think issues 7-10, or thereabouts. Wolverine gets pissed and Spidey is standing right next to him. He grabs him by the throat, slams him into a tree, and gives him the two-and-a-half claw throat hold (similar to in the movie). Spider-Man should have been able to avoid that, should he? Well, he didn't. He also didn't prevent the Black Cat from grabbing his wrist and webbing him to a building before going after a mutant drug-dealer who may or may not have been raping her for the 2+ years that Kevin Smith has been putting off finishing that mini-series. The Black Cat shouldn't have been able to out-move Spider-Man, but Wolverine does what he pleases, to anyone he pleases. They made him too good, but that's how it is.

It is certainly common knowledge that Sabretooth is bigger and stronger than Wolverine. Faster? Not that I've seen. If you read "X-Men: Vignettes," there is a story in which Wolverine is hunted by Sabretooth and he never even lays eyes on him. The fact that he was not expecting such a hunt and Sabretooth was concealing his scent (don't ask me how) coupled with the knowledge that Wolverine was less secure and confidant back then let me know that Wolverine would do much better today. The Batman isn't as fast as Sabretooth, and I firmly believe that if Wolverine were aware that an opponent were near, he could exceed Sabretooth's speed, and anyone lesser or equal to him.
The only thing Bullseye has on Wolverine is his aim. Wolverine can probably out-throw and out-shoot most people on Earth, but that's Bullseye's stock-in-trade. A lot of good that would do in a fight with Wolverine.

It's not my decision or my fault that the writers of Marvel Comics have made Wolverine so tough and tenacious that he can beat most opponents that come his way, even if just temporarily. I have testified in other threads that the Batman can beat almost anyone who opposes him, too, but Wolverine is the same kind of category that the Batman is in: unstoppable, unrelenting know-it-all hunter/scrapper. The fact that both combatants do not quit and have wills of steel make them well-matched in some ways. Unfortunately, the Batman's body-- as well as his toys-- are not adamantium, or self-regenerating, or as inhumanly tough as Wolverine has been in the past decade. His best bet is to use the sonic tricks he used on Superman so as to trigger a berserker rage and take advantage of the lack of control.

There is no context here, and until there is, this is a moot debate. One thing I realize is, it's much easier to imagine Wolverine lying on the ground bleeding than the Batman. The Batman just looks like a perpetual winner, while Wolverine has a healing factor for such occasions as when he's gutted or has his face blown off. Until the Batman is willing to be the Punisher, he will have very few options likely to prevail in a fight.

Never, you're not in a position to judge my writing abilities until you yourself can use "inferred" properly. The word you wanted was "imply."

LoL. Woo where to start with this one?

One, I majored in English. 3.7 GPA. I am well aware of what "words I want." Two, will just cut to the chase considering you apparently cannot define "infer."

4 entries found for infer.
in·fer ( P ) Pronunciation Key (n-fûr)
v. in·ferred, in·fer·ring, in·fers
v. tr.

1. To conclude from evidence or premises.
2. To reason from circumstance; surmise: We can infer that his motive in publishing the diary was less than honorable.
3. To lead to as a consequence or conclusion: “Socrates argued that a statue inferred the existence of a sculptor” (Academy).
4. To hint; imply. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<------------------------------

I suggest you strongly consider propping your argument on a sturdier leg next time lest you fall flat on your face...again?

Bullseye really is a worse martial artist overall and he is slower than wolverine because apart from having his skeleton plated, bullseye has several adamantium prosthetics in place of bones.

Opinions are fine; substantiate it please? The Weapon X program did NOT augment neither Wolverine's SPEED nor his REFLEXES!

Re: Elektra vs. Wolverine - Um, read the Elektra vs. Wolverine mini-series? "Holla back" when you do.

Re: Wolverine & technology, he is still not even close to being in the same zip code as Batman. Acknowledged his Weapon X/covert ops training - hm, is a Navy Seal, for example, necessarily well conversed in ALL technology? No. Place the Mother Box in front of Wolverine and you would get "?????". I mean, who are we trying to fool here? Cyclops is a better strategist than Wolverine is.

Re: Gadget fight. Supplying him what he needs..? Lost me there. And AGAIN, as far as detective skills go, Batman is second only to Sherlock HOLMES. Do you realize what this means?

Re: Wolverine vs. Spiderman, I did not doubt it that it "happened." I opined that it was horrible writing. Read Wolverine vs. Spiderman wherein Spiderman knocked Wolverine the hell out? Read Secret Wars wherein Spiderman bounced around ALL of the X-Men and nobody could touch him? LoL, dude - Wolverine is NOT in Spiderman's league as far as speed. I am amazed that you do not know this. Again, Spiderman dodges BULLETS. Wolverine dodges PUNCHES on occasion. No comparison. None. Even Nightcrawler was amazed by how quick Spiderman is, and Wolverine is not NEARLY as agile as Nightcrawler is. LoL Spiderman is stronger, faster, quicker, smarter.

Was debated here as well. Hope you like eating crow =/ http://www.electricferret.com/fights/issue_142.htm

"Spidey is at least several times faster than Logan is."

"Wolverine may be fast, but he's not as fast as Spiderman."

"Spidey's reflexes and agility are such that he has, on numerous occassions in the past, dodged bullets..."

"True, Parker's superhuman strength and speed are formidable, easily superior to Logan's own..."

Re: Wolverine vs. Sabertooth regarding speed, Uncanny X-Men #212-213 is one instance. Will go dig it up and quote it shortly.

You say Wolverine is faster; where is your proof? Funny how he was not so "fast" when he caught that bone through the throat from Marrow?

Re: Wolverine being unstoppable, WHAT!? 😆 Wolverine is not even the best in his WEIGHT CLASS. Lady Deathstrike put it to his ass! How many names would you like who would mop the floor with him? Here are a few:

Black Panther (waiting on you to question this one), Stick, Stone, Daredevil, Shiva, Batgirl, Omega Red (owned his ass), Shang Chi, Gamora, BULLSEYE, Deadpool, Moondragon, Karnak, Midnighter, Spiderman - where do I stop?

The PUNISHER stalemates Wolverine. LoL @ "unstoppable."

Batman has killed before - and considering your chosen moniker I assumed that you would know this. Apparently I was mistaken.

You truly do not know what you are talking about. Each and every time I asked you to support your claims, you have not - except that one EXCEPTION wherein Wolverine grabbed Spiderman.

You say Batman would not kill when clearly he has in DKR (Joker) and DKSB (Robin).

Still LoL @ "unstoppable." Ever heard of Cyber? Only ONE does not fear Batman in martial arts in the DCU - Lady Shiva!

Christ.

Originally posted by Never

You say Batman would not kill when clearly he has in DKR (Joker) and DKSB (Robin).

Yes, but DKR is not canon. It's ... I'm not sure what it is. I'd call it elseworld, even though it isn't actually labled as such.

Incidently, what does DKSB stand for? Batman kills Robin?

Um, bleh. Lost my response again...

DKR is not "canon." Continue...? It was...not a one-shot...hrm. I understand what type of term you are searching for; I cannot conjure forth one either.

Are you also inferring that Frank Miller's characterization was inaccurate?

DKSB = Dark Knight Strikes Back. Batman chopped Robin's (Dick Grayson, I think) head off after Robin tortured the current Robin, damn near killing her.

Originally posted by Never
Um, bleh. Lost my response again...

DKR is not "canon." Continue...?

"Spawn vs. Batman is a companion piece to DC Comic's The Dark Knight Returns. It does not represent current DC continuity"--Frank Miller(?) at the beginning of his Spawn-Batman crossover.

Are you also inferring that Frank Miller's characterization was inaccurate?

DKSB = Dark Knight Strikes Back. Batman chopped Robin's (Dick Grayson, I think) head off after Robin tortured the current Robin, damn near killing her.

It seems to me that Frank Miller's characterization in this particular regard is very...chaotic. Batman refuses to kill the mutant leader with his tank, but he then kills The Joker. Batman orders his men to not kill anybody in the first issue of TKSA (the only issue I've read), but goes on to kill Dick Grayson. And in Batman/Spawn, which is a companion piece to TKR, Batman beats on Spawn for killing a trio of murderers.

Okay, but Spawn is a McFarlane (Wildstorm? Image? Forget which entity owns the other) character...unless McFarlane sold the rights to the character. He is not a DC character.

Robin is, Superman is, Green Arrow is, Flash is, Green Lantern is, Luthor is, Hawkman is, Joker is, Two-Face is. I see that as being the primary difference between those two. Crossovers are very rarely considered as being in continuity...but neither DKR nor DKSB were crossovers. Not attacking here; trying to be clear in stating my position.

Because it is outside of DC continuity, is it inaccurate as regards to the portrayals of the characters therein? You say "chaotic" - how? ONLY because he kills?

Would "inconsistent" be more accurate than chaotic - and I am only referencing the fact that he killed (Batman killed pre-Robin also, btw) in the issues? Or you do indeed mean "chaotic" as in confused, disorderly?

Originally posted by Never
Okay, but Spawn is a McFarlane (Wildstorm? Image? Forget which entity owns the other) character...unless McFarlane sold the rights to the character. He is not a DC character.

Robin is, Superman is, Green Arrow is, Flash is, Green Lantern is, Luthor is, Hawkman is, Joker is, Two-Face is. I see that as being the primary difference between those two. Crossovers are very rarely considered as being in continuity...but neither DKR nor DKSB were crossovers. Not attacking here; trying to be clear in stating my position.

I thought that the implication was that Spawn/Batman was not part of the main continuity because it was a companion piece to DKR. I may have been wrong about that.

But DKR still can't be cannon because that reality has Barry Allen as the Flash and Hal Jordan as the Green Lantern, which contradicts continuity.

Would "inconsistent" be more accurate than chaotic - and I am only referencing the fact that he killed (Batman killed pre-Robin also, btw) in the issues? Or you do indeed mean "chaotic" as in confused, disorderly?

Inconsistent would probably have been a better word.

INDEED A OFF THE TOPIC POST BY VENOMfan!

Never do you have a top ten list for reaction speed? I havent been able to put a good estimate on Venom, It say's his version of "spider-sense"
isnt as complex hence not as responsive, but it still came down to being unkown wether or not he could dodge bullet's or a barrage of gunfire.
I have never seen him act that fast, but he usualy is too lazy to avoid regular gunfire((dosent need to)) so i figured it was about 25x threw 35x time reaction speed, it cant be that far behind spider-sense right?

[Daredevil: 8.5
Elektra: 9.25
Bullseye: 9.5
Stick: 10
Stone: 9.5
Iron Fist: 9
Batman: 8
Karate Kid: 15
Shang Chi: 10
Batgirl: 9.95

I wanna know where you got this from coz it sucks. Iron fist would never have a lower score than bullshit.He is 'the master of martial arts'.Batman would never be 8, he'd be a 9(127 martial arts perfected). DD(9.5) is on a par with Iron fist and Bats(9)technically but his senses and reflexes (DD) and captain americas(9.5) physical perfection(beyond batman's) give them the edge. Stick and stone are dead on correct and so is elektra.Bullshit is an 8 at best. It doesn't matter if some resource said it, I've read comics on all these guys for donkey's ears and I've never seen bullshit pull out anything worth 9.5. He's a wicked fighter and master marksman but 9.5?I dont think so. so where is it from?

Venom, I sure don't. Not sure how Venom would be 25x - 35x faster when Spiderman is only quicker than humans by a factor of 15...? He is not that much faster than Spidey (it has been said numerous times that he is SLOWER than Spidey, but I know how touchy you are about Venom), if at all - and I **should** say "quicker" as opposed to "faster." I am not referencing foot speed.

Several individuals compiled the list, Kal. Feel free to continue to question; I have no problem with that - it is hardly gospel, LoL

Re: Iron Fist being "the master of martial arts," bullshit. He is one of the most skilled, but hardly "the master."

Batman is no 9. Elektra is "only" a 9.25 and she would go toe-to-toe with Lady Shiva, who is superior to Batman by a "considerable" margin - and I enclosed "considerable" in quotes as the increments are more meaningful higher up the scale.

DD is not on par with IF. How so?

DD is also SUPERIOR to Batman. God, if they went h2h DD walks away the winner. Give me a break.

Bullseye KILLED Elektra, how is she higher than him?

Have also read comics for 20 years - how does that alone discredit Bullseye?

LoL @ "8 at best!"

Acknowledged his Weapon X/covert ops training - hm, is a Navy Seal, for example, necessarily well conversed in ALL technology?

Of course I meant to type "...necessarily well **versed** in ALL technology?"

lol no what i ment was Spidey is usualy on a scale of 40x and opposed to him venom would be say 25x threw 35x I know he's not as fast or agile. so if 15x time's is the factor maybe a 7x threw 12x scale?

Oh, I see what you are saying - and that sounds about right (in my opinion) since Venom is a lot faster than any "regular human."

I alway's thought Sabretooth was supposed to be able to take out Wolvie..but are there any comic's were he doe's? or at least kick's some ass? he seem's pretty under-rated in the X-men forum's and most of them think any member of the X-men could pawn him((except Psylocke of course)). damn shame I alway's thought he rocked

DKR and DK2 are canon. they are a what if scenario of the silver age batman if the crisis had never happened.

Originally posted by Darth Jello

DKR and DK2 are canon. they are a what if scenario of the silver age batman if the crisis had never happened.

Maybe I just don't know what the word means, but how are "what if" scenarioes canon?

Never, you are quite a nasty little guy, aren't you?

Apparently, long, long ago, the words imply and infer were synonyms. Most people today do not use them interchangeably. I defer to your superior knowledge of outdated language. Still, you can educate without being nasty.

"Batman: The Dark Knight Returns" is not canon. It is a possible future for the Batman and his world stemming from the death of Jason Todd. If this future were valid, then the Dark Knight would have quit and returned ten years later.
A point on which you are wrong, pure and simple: in "Batman: The Dark Knight Returns," the Batman does not kill. He did not kill the Joker, or anyone else. The Joker chose to kill himself. Disregard the distinction between crippling and killing if you want to be inaccurate; the point remains that if the Batman did to Wolverine what he did to the Joker, it would not win him the battle.
In the sequels, he may well be a killer. I was disappointed with it and haven't reread the books, and I remember only vaguely. The point is, it's Frank Miller having his way with Batman continuity like a 300 pound man has his way with his new cellmate, not legitimate continuity that conforms to the "Batman Bible," which forbids Batman to kill. Yes, the Batman did kill, pre-Robin, as I've pointed out in the forums several times now. That was before the Batman Bible, which mentions his association with Robin (hence, there always seems to be one around). It also ensures that he remains celibate. Poor Batman.

I am not arguing that Wolverine is, on the whole, faster than Spider-Man. It was clear to me from day one that Spider-Man was faster than most Marvel characters. The point is, even with a man as fast and precognitive as Spider-Man, Wolverine surprised him. He does things his relative stats woulds seemingly prohibit. If he can blindside Spider-Man, he has the potential to beat his own regular speed. His own regular speed is faster than the Batman's. Like I said, he moves at speeds that make his image blurry to observers. I'd dig out my Essential Wolverine collection and check for an example, but I'm lazy. He has dodged his share of bullets as well. Just because half of the clip ends up in his body doesn't mean he didn't dodge the other half. He dodges all kinds of projectiles and blows. If you don't know by now that Wolverine is equal to or faster than any normal human hero, then examples won't convince you. Unless you're completely ignorant of Wolverine's abilities and are making all this up. But that couldn't be, could it?

Obviously, Wolverine has had defeats. He was defeated by people who vastly outclassed his power and/or were willing to kill. The Batman, as undeniably cool as he is, is neither. Wolverine is not dead, and not for the lack of trying on the part of his enemies. Wolverine gets defeated because it would be boring to simply watch him win every time, and that doesn't make for good reading. Nor would it be if Wolverine were to kill off his best villains. For the same reason, the Batman doesn't kill his villains, and they never kill him. It would be more realistic if the Batman had been killed long ago. Probably the same with Wolverine. Put the two of them together and take a wild guess who can last longer in a fight to the finish. What's that? The Batman won't participate in that kind of fight? Then he has no choice but to resort to the tactic I suggested in previous posts, or flee. Or call in the JLA. The Batman isn't Lady Deathstrike, or Cyber. Cyber was the one man Wolverine was afraid of, and he got eaten by mutant beetles. The Batman scares cowards, not Wolverine. You can't really believe that even human perfection is more dangerous than Wolverine in a fight. Wolverine would win because he has all of Batman's determination and indomitable will, plus mutant powers and a cyborg infrastructure. That and the will to kill in order to survive. When Wolverine backs the Batman into a corner, his only out is to make Wolverine sloppy with rage. I believe that the Batman would win a fight with Wolverine, but it wouldn't be a fight based on physical abilities, and it wouldn't even be primarily about intelligence. You think Wolverine hasn't angered an opponent in order to make them slip up?

Several individuals compiled the list, Kal. Feel free to continue to question; I have no problem with that - it is hardly gospel, LoL
Oh ok

Re: Iron Fist being "the master of martial arts," bullshit. He is one of the most skilled, but hardly "the master."'
'the master of the martial arts' is his tagline so I assumed that was 'gospel'.Am open to debate on that.

Batman is no 9. Elektra is "only" a 9.25 and she would go toe-to-toe with Lady Shiva, who is superior to Batman by a "considerable" margin - and I enclosed "considerable" in quotes as the increments are moremeaningful higher up the scale.
debatable, but bats beat shiva recently, so its all up in the air.

DD is not on par with IF. How so?
Only time I seen them they fight, it was a stalemate.

DD is also SUPERIOR to Batman. God, if they went h2h DD walks away the winner. Give me a break.
Definitely agreed that DD would beat batman but we were talking about strictly martial arts skill weren't we and that alone doesnt alone win fights. I rate their skill as the same but I think DD is tougher and faster.

Bullseye KILLED Elektra, how is she higher than him?
Good point. But I think therefore, elektra should have a lower score and Bullseye about an 8.5.Still don't reckon he's a 9.5.

You've opened my eyes to bullshit's ability a bit. Don't get me wrong, DD is my favourite superdude and Bullseye obviously his nemesis(aswell as fatboy) but I just won't agree he's a 9.5.

If the ratings you gave were about who was toughest I'd prob agree but thats different than being skilled at martial arts

Martial arts don't make the whole fight. I have a reprint of the issue where Bullseye kills Electra, but I'm too lazy to reach over two feet and read it. I don't remember why she lost that one.
Intuitively, the Batman seems physically stronger than Daredevil, and I am willing to bet he is superior in martial arts by humkan standards. It would be the enhanced senses that gives Daredevil the biggest edge, as they would Wolverine, to a lesser degree than DD. Daredevil also may be more maneuverable physically than the Batman.
Let's face it, the Batman is a hulk of a man who, fast as he is, may not be the fastest martial artist in the world. Wolverine is of a similar body-type as the Batman, but he's a mutant who seems to outdo most humans in feats of strength, speed, agility, and obviously toughness.