Originally posted by VENOMfan
Wolvie isnt that strong compared to a human tho, if bat's his peak human strength then there both at 800lb strength and bat's faced Captain America who's also peak human
Well, he's incredibly strong compared to most normal humans. He's equal to a peak specimen of a normal human, which is Captain America. Wolverine is at least as strong as the Batman, depending on whether the Batman is as strong as a normal human can possibly be. Captain America and Wolverine both have a biological edge over the Batman, who has to work harder.
Martial arts don't make the whole fight. I have a reprint of the issue where Bullseye kills Electra, but I'm too lazy to reach over two feet and read it. I don't remember why she lost that one.
Intuitively, the Batman seems physically stronger than Daredevil, and I am willing to bet he is superior in martial arts by humkan standards. It would be the enhanced senses that gives Daredevil the biggest edge, as they would Wolverine, to a lesser degree than DD. Daredevil also may be more maneuverable physically than the Batman.
Let's face it, the Batman is a hulk of a man who, fast as he is, may not be the fastest martial artist in the world. Wolverine is of a similar body-type as the Batman, but he's a mutant who seems to outdo most humans in feats of strength, speed, agility, and obviously toughness. [/B][/QUOTE]
Agreed, except we've had the whole whos stronger thing before and DD has done more strong things than batman in his comics but really they're about the same in strength, with speed and agility going to the devil. DDs 6'0''200lbs, bats 6'2''210lbs.10lbs spread over two inches doesnt make for that much stronger if you no what I mean. Bats is drawn as a hulk of a man to make him look intimidating as is DD but really, 210lbs into 6'2'' all muscle is very athletic.His physique is really more akin to that of a decathlete or a small heavyweight boxer.Lean AND powerful. the speed that goes to DD is only based on his reactions(which are above normal human). Bats aint as strong as Wolverine or Cap.they can lift 800lbs but no norman humans can(except kingpin). Cap is supposed to be the ultimate, but definitely unnatainable human specimen. his condition cant be reached with training alone. He is 240lbs and Wolverine 300lbs(with adamantium). Strength goes to Wolverine really but I think that its a close fight. Batman, once he knows about the healing factor, wont mind going overkill on Wolvie like punisher does/did, with bombs and shit, coz he knows it wont kill him. Fist to fist(or claw) I think Wolverine has to take this one. Neither would kill the other. Wolvie won't kill good guys, bats wont kill period.
>>Never, you are quite a nasty little guy, aren't you?<<
When provoked. And especially when saucy individuals call themselves edifying others on the finer points of grammar/vocabulary when they have not a clue themselves.
>>Apparently, long, long ago, the words imply and infer were synonyms. Most people today do not use them interchangeably. I defer to your superior knowledge of outdated language.<<
"Most people? If it was "outdated" it would be listed only in the OED. LoL, do you write for a living? I do. You were incorrect. Period. Move on.
>>Still, you can educate without being nasty.<<
See first comment.
>>"Batman: The Dark Knight Returns" is not canon.<<
Never said it was.
>>If this future were valid, then the Dark Knight would have quit and returned ten years later.<<
What? It is Frank Miller's interpretation of an older, slower Batman character. His characterization is valid, as is his story arc.
>>He did not kill the Joker, or anyone else. The Joker chose to kill himself.<<
Do have not the issue handy considering I gave it to a friend as a present. I now recall that he broke the Joker's neck; the Joker twisted it further, killing himself. I admit my error.
>>Yes, the Batman did kill, pre-Robin, as I've pointed out in the forums several times now.<<
And he killed Robin in Dark Knight Strikes Back. You were saying...?
>>The point is, even with a man as fast and precognitive as Spider-Man, Wolverine surprised him.<<
Shoddy writing. End of story. Odd how he easily bounces around Wolverine in Secret Wars and knocks Wolverine out (you know, the Wolverine that easily dodges punches and bullets?) in Spiderman vs. Wolverine. Anyone who knows anything about Spidey is aware that his reflexes are superior to a human's by a factor of 15 or so. Wolverine is NOWHERE near that fast. LoL, Elektra is not as fast as Spidey and she puts Wolvie's ass down SO easily.
>>Like I said, he moves at speeds that make his image blurry to observers.<<
Bullshit. Where has he CONSISTENTLY done this? Nowhere.
>>I'd dig out my Essential Wolverine collection and check for an example, but I'm lazy.<<
AN example? LoL, sounds like the EXCEPTION to the RULE, does it not?
>>He has dodged his share of bullets as well. Just because half of the clip ends up in his body doesn't mean he didn't dodge the other half.<<
Um, that is YOUR interpretation. It is not EASY to hit any human with martial arts ability whilst that human is moving, now is it? HUGE difference between "dodging bullets" (as in contorting one's body to dodge THE bullet) and an evasive maneuver.
>>If you don't know by now that Wolverine is equal to or faster than any normal human hero, then examples won't convince you. Unless you're completely ignorant of Wolverine's abilities and are making all this up. But that couldn't be, could it?<<
LMAO, I have been reading X-Men since 1981. Please - and is Batman a "normal human hero?" Court adjourned.
>>Obviously, Wolverine has had defeats.<<
MANY.
>>He was defeated by people who vastly outclassed his power and/or were willing to kill.<<
Elektra? Cyber? Marrow? Lady Deathstrike? Omega Red? Iron Fist? Would you like more?
>>Wolverine gets defeated because it would be boring to simply watch him win every time, and that doesn't make for good reading.<<
Odd, considering he gets his ass handed to him quite a bit, is it not?
After all of this blah blah, where is the proof that would substantiate your claims? That is, if you have any?
>>'the master of the martial arts' is his tagline so I assumed that was 'gospel'.Am open to debate on that.<<
My mistake. I read that as "the top martial artist in the Marvel U."
>>debatable, but bats beat shiva recently, so its all up in the air.<<
Not debatable, Batman cannot regularly beat Shiva. Shit, she TRAINED him. CATWOMAN beat Shiva recently. How? Sucker punched her.
>>Only time I seen them they fight, it was a stalemate.<<
One fight. Is Batman on par with Cap? They stalemated.
>>Definitely agreed that DD would beat batman but we were talking about strictly martial arts skill weren't we and that alone doesnt alone win fights.<<
You lost me here...
>>Intuitively, the Batman seems physically stronger than Daredevil, and I am willing to bet he is superior in martial arts by humkan standards.<<
LoL. Then you must not read both books, as it is visibly clear that Daredevil is superior to Batman in every way except intelligence and weaponry to those who read both books routinely.
>>>It would be the enhanced senses that gives Daredevil the biggest edge<<<
See above sentence.
>>He's equal to a peak specimen of a normal human<<
Interesting, they say the same about Batman.
Never: I already pointed out the Batman's most likely method of attaining victory over Wolverine, and you have not contested it. That leaves it open for you to be right.
Wolverine gets his ass handed to him a lot because he tackles more super-powered villains than the Batman does, routinely. The Batman wins most of his fights because he can't heal from the kind of injuries that Wolverine sustains, and that would result in a dumb stunt publicity a la the "death" of Superman.
I've been known to be a nasty sum'***** in a debate, but usually I only deem it acceptable to get nasty when the issue at hand is ideology or something a little more abstract and meaningful than picking at examples gleaned from fiction. If this is how you play, the sand box is all yours, pal. I was hoping to avoid any more heated verbal battles, considering the last time I had one on these boards was with a poorly equipped, punitive, petty moderator who banned me for a month in lieu of an intelligent response. Here you are, well equipped for a verbal battle, but with as much subtlety and restraint as the Punisher. Congrats.
The Batman:
In the future I strongly suggest you consider checking your ego at the door lest you bump into yet another individual who will waste no time in pointing out your myriad inconsistencies as regards to your comic book character "knowledge."
I personally could not care less if you are known to be a "nasty sum'***** in a debate" to others. As a matter of fact, I will leave it at that lest I...never mind.
LoL @ your caustic rejoinders when the first salvo fired emerged from your gun:
Never, you're not in a position to judge my writing abilities until you yourself can use "inferred" properly. The word you wanted was "imply." Even the Rhino knew that. Granted, he was a genius at the time, but still.
Now. You wrote this in response to my statement here:
Horrible writing. Absolutely ridiculous.
And I wrote this in response to YOUR statement here:
he was fast enough to blindside Spider-Man with a grabbing maneuver, and you know about the spider-sense.
If you did not come in here galloping on your high horse you would not have assumed that I was referencing YOUR writing as "horrible." I was indeed referencing the writing in the COMIC BOOK as horrible considering there is no way in hell that Wolverine can hang with Spiderman when discussing **speed or reflexes**. He CANNOT. I am willing to bet my FIRST BORN that at LEAST 90% of the writers you ask (Claremont, Davis, Busiek, Bendis, Simonson, Morrison, Waid, et al) will support my position.
Anywho.
>>Wolverine gets his ass handed to him a lot because he tackles more super-powered villains than the Batman does, routinely.<<
Um, since when were Elektra, Cyber, Marrow, Lady Deathstrike, Sabretooth, and Omega Red "super-powered villains?" Would you prefer his "official" list of enemies? Bloodscream, Chimera, Cyber, Epsilon Red, Genesis, Juggernaut, Lady Deathstrike, Magneto, Ogun, Omega Red, Sabretooth, Shiva, Silver Samurai/Viper. Of COURSE I may have forgotten a couple. Hell, Spiderman has taken down more impressive opponents! Yes, the very same Spiderman you think Wolverine can toss around.
That being said, sir, you do know how many of the aforementioned are considered to be "super-powered," correct? Two. Let us extend your argument to the ENTIRE X-Men. X-Men enemies?
Juggernaut, Magneto, Apocalypse, Hellfire Club, Mr. Sinister, Stryfe, Mastermind, Spiral, Mojo, Goblin Queen, Belasco, Nimrod (Sentinels), Phalanx, The Reavers, Fenris, Sauron, The Brood. Of COURSE I may have forgotten a couple.
Batman's enemies? Joker, Two-Face, Bane, The Riddler, Mr. Freeze, Harley Quinn, Killer Croc, The Penguin, Poison Ivy, Two Face, Ra's Al Ghul. Bane is the only one that would be considered "super-powered." Mayyyyyybe Killer Croc. Mayyyyyyybe.
Wolverine does not "routinely" tackle Juggernaut. He does, however, bump into Magneto often.
That would be one apiece.
Now then, the JLA's enemies?
Know Man, The Star Conqueror, Asmodel and His Angels, Darkseid, The Key, Vandal Savage, Julian September, Prometheus, The Injustice Gang, IF, Neron and The Demons, Epoch, Solaris, Amazo, Dr. Destiny, Professor Ivo.
There simply is no comparison here. Funny thing is Batman devises the means by which he can defeat all of Wolverine's enemies. Can you say the same about Wolverine defeating Batman's enemies?
Hell no. Batman's enemies are WAY more cerebral than Wolverine's, and come to think of it, "super-powered" most certainly can reference organizational/tactical/intellectual opponents. Ra's Al Ghul is an example.
At any rate, I am not trying to change your opinion. I "debate" simply because I LOVE comic books and I LOVE debating vs. battles. I have zero problem agreeing to disagree.
I will say this AGAIN. Every time I have quoted you and said "shoddy/horrible writing" I was referencing the comic book writer, not you. You are at fault here, not me.
Venomfan, I would consider an olympic class athlete as a "peak human being."
>>i think given a pure hand to hand combat, logan would kick batman's ass.<<
Entitled to your opinion, you are. Where do you think Logan places on the MU list of martial artists? I tell you for a FACT that Batman is a notch below Lady Shiva. Wolverine is not even CLOSE to IF, Elektra, Stick, Shang Chi, Moondragon, or Gamora.
ANYONE like to comment on where they think Wolverine places on the list? Hell, anyone (besides me, of course) care to provide us with a list of the Marvel U's martial artists/h2h combatants?
Um, since when were Elektra, Cyber, Marrow, Lady Deathstrike, Sabretooth, and Omega Red "super-powered villains?"
Each of these characters has superpowers except for Elektra. Cyber clearly has superhuman strength and it's known that he has mental abilities. Marrow is no match for Wolverine in a fair fight (that was a vicious sucker-punch she gave Wolverine, and she would have died for it if not for the X-Men interfering), but she is a mutant with powers enough to qualify her for membership on the X-Men. Sabretooth obviously has the same superpowers Wolverine has, plus augmented strength. Omega Red is a mutant with the ability and need to drain people (or maybe only mutants... either way) of their life force with his death pheromones. This was before he was given armored skin and carbonadium tentacles. He may also possess superhuman strength (which would make sense), but the rest of it is true. Lady Deathstrike is an enhanced cyborg with a "plastic healing factor" among other things. Her artificial components heal themselves. Whether you want to count this as a "superpower" or not, it puts her on par with other super-powered beings.
All of this is true, so be as smug as you want about everything else, but don't waste my time with nonsense about how super-powered mutants and cyborgs don't have superpowers.
The Batman has taken down his share of super-powered villains, no doubt. I was merely talking about the frequency with which Wolverine tends to mix it up such people. The Batman is an urban protector more than a globe-trotting adventurer, but thanks to the JLA, he can be both.
No need to wager your first-born in regard to the difference between Spider-Man's speed and that of Wolverine. I agree with you. But there are exceptions.
Spare me your faux patronage - "smug" when "debating" you? LoL, please.
For the record, I do not consider Omega Red, Lady Deathstrike, Marrow, et al, to be "super-powered." A mutant is not necessarily "super-powered," ***in my opinion.*** I gathered my identifying Juggernaut and Magneto as the only two to be "super-powered" underscored my position. Apparently not. Per your definition of super-powered, Wolverine does routinely enounter villains of said abilities.
Your position is hardly worth accepting at face value. If you want to put your own personal spin on the definition of "super-powers," that pretty much ends the debate right there for you, doesn't it?
If Marrow has the ability-- voluntary or involuntary-- to produce deadly, detachable weapons from her own body, not to mention grow a second heart, then I would consider it a power. You can argue that it's a stupid power and isn't worth much, and I'll agree. She has to ability to throw lethal temper tantrums and hurt Wolverine just enough to work him into a berserker rage. Regardless, a mutant who fights with or against the X-Men possesses powers that normal people do not. If you think Omega Red doesn't qualify, it's not worth the effort to clarify it for you.
You do a lot of LoL-ing for a guy with such an underdeveloped sense of humor.
You said "SUPER-POWERED." I was supposed to ASSUME that YOU define "SUPER-POWERED" as "a mutant with superHUMAN powers?" No.
Had you said "SUPERHUMAN" then I would have known what you were referencing. You said "SUPER-POWERED" which I TOOK to mean not only SUPERHUMAN, but also SUPER-POWERED SUPER HUMANS, hence my listing MAGNETO AND JUGGERNAUT who are BOTH "SUPER-POWERED SUPER HUMANS" (mutants) relative to OMEGA RED, ELEKTRA, and MARROW.
In the Marvel Universe which comprises beings from LIVING TRIBUNAL down to JUBILEE, I do NOT consider JUBILEE to be "SUPER-POWERED."
You do a lot of assuming for someone with such a prodigious IQ, do you not?
Sarcasm included for your enjoyment.
Oh, I do love a good dose of sarcasm. However, it's not enough icing to cover up the bland taste of your garbled, back-tracking attempt at an explanation for why you erroneously excluded Omega Red and Sabretooth from the list of "super-powered" beings.
That's a completely subjective definition, and it would have been acceptable had you qualified your earlier taunt regarding the list of characters whose super-powers you discounted. If you had said "Since when are these powers good enough to give a superhero a decent workout" or somesuch, then you wouldn't be throwing more semantics at me now.
There is a large spectrum of superpowers, ranging from those of fifth-rate losers like Marrow to the awesome might of Superman. I define it as any sci-fi type ability that normal humans cannot possess. You want to compare Superman and Magneto to normal humans? You have to address the fact that Magneto is human and Superman isn't. Which is more of a superpower? Is it even a superpower at all if it comes with your genetic code as a member of your species, as with Superman? It's relative to one's community, as has been stated in the "What makes a superhero a superhero?" thread.
"Backtracking?" When the original, unedited text says, quote:
Um, since when were Elektra, Cyber, Marrow, Lady Deathstrike, Sabretooth, and Omega Red "super-powered villains?" Would you prefer his "official" list of enemies?
I referenced it AGAIN here:
That being said, sir, you do know how many of the aforementioned are considered to be "super-powered," correct? Two.
Notice I enclosed SUPER-POWERED in quotations, calling attention to it? So if I was "backtracking" pursuant to your stillborn attempts at logic then why was I and am still consistent in the manner in which I categorize "super-powered" individuals? 😂
"Completely subjective definition?" No kidding, hence my highlighting it WITH QUOTATIONS prompting YOU to define it.
Still LoL @ you having your head so far up your butt you failed to acknowledge your ORIGINAL blunder (assuming I was referencing YOUR writing), and now you are trying to tell ME what I meant by "super-powered." It is really rather simple - should I drop bread crumbs, attach disclaimers, and affix tags next time?
And uh, by the way, Magneto is not considered human, savant. He is considered a MUTANT. He endeavors to WIPE OUT HUMANS, opposing Xavier who opines that they can exist harmoniously.
You really do not read comics, do you?
Since you ASKED, I consider - again - individuals such as Hulk, Magneto, Doomsday, Juggernaut, Dr. Strange, Silver Surfer, Thor, and Hercules to be "super powered." They all have SUPER POWERS but, *****in my opinion***** they are not "SUPER POWERED," which I consider to be a distinction between "tier 1" and "tier 2" mutants.
Will not even bother replying to anymore of your drivel considering your flawless displays of comic book ignorance and sophomoric attempts at logic.
Good day.
wow u all give batman way to much credit abtman is basicly just captain but with no powers. wolverine can whoop captain because quite frankly thou captain is second best fighter in skill wise wolverine is the best fighter skill wise he also has taken down people who bat couldent even hurt like the hulk. also wolverine power are much greater the captian america so if captain beats batman when they fight then how coudl batman possably fight a guy who stronger faster and mroe agile bye a lot. he also is much better fighter then batman so how can batman beat him. also wolverine is dam near invisable he beincenicrated and was abck up fully heal in less then a minut in venom on the run. so dont give me that crap that batman coudl even coem close to beaten wolverine batman cant even hurt wolverine let alone beat him. another thing wolverine takes hti from the dtrongest beeing the hulk and he also won liek all his matches with the hulk and the ones he dident they tide. wolverine out class batman all the way it just not fair to have them fight sorrya ll batman just cant fight some one who way better at every thing.
also wolveriune has super human power not peak he a level apove peak he has thrown hulk and hulk is 1047 pounds also all thsoe girl fighter u talken about was woverien nto try to hurt them if u watch when wolverine trys to do some thing he does it liek wehn he kicks hulk ass and he also beat the thing he beaten spider man so i sorry batman no match.