Originally posted by WaDe_N_sPaRrOw
Well.. mayb wen/if they kill voldemort everyone that was killed by him or by his supporters because of him will rise again.. not necessarily as humans but as spirits.. i dont no but i still think Sirius at least will come back... although i wish cedric would as well.. that wuld b quite a good end to the series.. if sirius (in any form)came bac and harry got to see or speak to his mum nd dad even if they are spirirts... nd even if he onli spoke to them briefly.. it wuld be more than he spoke to them now... yes i've decided thats how i want it to end... hehe 😄
i love this idea
Is Sirius going to come back?
Everyone has had they're fair share of saying that he'll come back...but is there any evidence for it? What have made you guys say that he'll be back...just caus u miss him....or because you have read something in the books which has led you to believe that there is a chance for him.
I had a thought earlier, couldn't harry save sirius the way he did in book three? ussing the Time-Turner? Nothing was said about the device after the chapter where it was used to help sirius escape...so shouldn't that mean that it's still in the school, or hermione still has possesion of it. If Prof. McGonnagal has it, surely harry would try to aquire it in an attempt to get Sirius back.
what where she sais that "It's not as if i'll never see my mum again is it?" " You heard them, just behind the veil, didn't you? In that room with the archway. They were just lurking out of site thats all. You heard them"
I do aggree wiv you on that one, but then it's been made clear that Luna believes in all sorts of things, and nearly all of them are obviously not real. So is that statement something to trust?
well, i think you should try reading the books and you may find that you actually like them, i agree the movies arent all that great.
pixie, sure he is not supposed to do that, he's not supposed to let anyone see him while time traveling. but i could imagine harry doing something like that to try to save sirius. i think that would be really interesting. in the third book, hermione kept warning harry about the consequences of what could happen if he is seen, yet he almost does it anyway in a few places, and he does let himself see him right before he collapses when the dementors are surrounding him. so, i think harry would do it if he thought he would have a chance of saving sirius. but then what would happen? someone else would end up dying?? idk but i think that would make a really good 6th book.
one theory (from mugglenet.com)
Beyond the Veil
One of the great mysteries in OotP is what exactly happened to Sirius in the Death Chamber in the DoM. I've had many owls about this and also read a whole bunch of different theories on the subject. Today, I'll try to sort things out a bit.
As we see in OotP, there's one room in the DoM for every mystery. There's the room of Time, the room of Prophecy, the brain-room (Intelligence?), the planet-room (the Universe?), the ever-locked one (Love?) and the one we have here: the Death Room.
The room is compared to an amphitheatre and the courtroom of the Wizengamot. This indicates that this is not only a place for study, but a place for "show" as well. I've heard the theory that the Death Room might be used to carry out the death penalty in the wizarding world. Definitely a possibility. Although, the wizard version of the death penalty seems to be the Dementor's Kiss, which is described as "worse than death." Why would you then have a regular death penalty, I wonder? Note the heavy references to ancient Greece and its theatres. This could be alluding to the Greek tragedies, the fatality of life, etc.
I don't think it's that great a mystery what the veil and the archway represent. They represent death. When you pass through the veil you die. I base this on the following arguments: 1) it's called the "Death Chamber;" they probably would call it something else if Death wasn't the subject of study in there; 2) Sirius dies when he falls through it (I'll get back to that); and 3) Harry feels very attracted to this archway.
This attraction that the veil represents is what I find most intriguing. Harry finds it beautiful, feels "a strong inclination" to walk through it and is "mesmerized" by it. Ginny and Neville are "entranced" and Harry and Luna can hear voices behind it. Hermione is scared of it but can't hear the voices and neither can Ron. This repartition is very interesting. Note that we have almost the same one with the Thestrals: Harry, Neville and Luna can see them, Ginny, Ron and Hermione can't (p. 672). Harry, Neville and Luna have a connection to Death, having witnessed it themselves. Ginny does too, for though she hasn't technically seen Death, she has been very close to dying herself (CoS). Ron and Hermione on the other hand, don't have that connection. Hermione feels fear of the unknown in the Death Chamber, nothing else.
Harry is the one who seems most affected by the veil, which is totally logical. Harry's parents are dead, he watched Cedric die, and he's been very close to snuffing it himself on several occasions. He's been very close to Death, but he doesn't know it. He's mystified by it and drawn to it, as we can see for example in PoA where he has big problems producing a Patronus because he yearns to hear his parents' last moments. He knows quite a few ghosts, and he's seen the shadows of his parents come out of Voldemort's wand. Death is a very "living" thing to Harry Potter; it's something that exists very close to his own existence. I think the voices represent exactly this: the closeness between the living world and that of the dead. Luna's very open on this matter, which could be why she too can hear the voices. (We don't know if Neville or Ginny can hear them; it would have been interesting to find out.) Also, let's not forget what Dumbledore said in PoA, that the ones we love never truly leave us, even in death. This is very true for Harry. His mother lives on in him in the protection she gave him, his father in the form his Patronus takes. Sirius will, too, in some way.
So, what actually happened to Sirius? I've read articles arguing that he actually didn't die, that someone else took Polyjuice Potion and pretended to be him, etc. I must say that I disagree. This is what the text says:
OotP p. 710-711:
"It seemed to take Sirius an age to fall: his body curved in a graceful arc as he sank backwards through the ragged veil hanging from the arch. Harry saw the look of mingled fear and surprise on his godfather's wasted, once handsome face as he fell through the ancient doorway and disappeared behind the veil, which fluttered for a moment as though in high wind, then fell back into place."
This is how I interpret it: Sirius was hit by Bellatrix's spell (probably a stunner or an impedimenta jinx as it was red) and fell. The spell didn't kill him; the veil did. He fell through the archway, marking the border between the living world and that of the dead, and consequently went over to the other side. He died.
Okay, let's answer to some arguments saying that Sirius didn't die.
1) What if someone went back to when Sirius was still at 12 Grimmauld Place and took a Polyjuice Potion to transform into him, then that person went to the Department of Mysteries, knowing their fate was on the other side of The Veil, but Sirius would have never even been in the Department of Mysteries. It is highly possible, except, who would do that?
Exactly, who would do that? In order to use a time-turner in this way, the person going back in time would have to be one who was present in the fight (or he/she wouldn't know about it). But if that person was present in the fight, he/she can't at the same time have been there as Sirius Black. Thus, for this to work, this person would have had to go back in time, taken on Sirius' appearance, got somebody else (who wasn't in the fight but who was in the Order) to take on his/her own appearance, etc. But then this person would die in the fight and be unable to go back in time, and so on. Who, indeed, would do this? Also, let's not forget that it takes ONE MONTH to prepare the Polyjuice Potion (CoS). It's not something you just whisk together in five minutes. I'd say that this theory is very far from "highly possible"...
2) Harry needs to think that Sirius is dead in order to protect him from Voldemort as Voldemort knows how much Harry loves Sirius and could try to get to Harry through him.
This is about as probable as the theory saying that Lupin is, in fact, James Potter on Polyjuice Potion. (I'll do that one next week.) Not at all probable, that is. One reason is that it would be extremely cruel to Harry to pretend that Sirius is dead if he wasn't; another that Lupin reacts too fast when he tries to keep Harry from following Sirius. If the veil was simply a doorway and didn't kill you, why would Lupin fight so hard to keep Harry from going in there and retrieve Sirius? Why wouldn't he go himself, seeing as Sirius is his best friend? It just doesn't make sense. In "The Lost Prophecy," Dumbledore explains to Harry that he didn't tell him about the prophecy because he wanted to make life easier for him, that he didn't want him to suffer. If Sirius wasn't dead, would Dumbledore really lie outright to Harry, causing him enormous, unnecessary pain? No, he wouldn't. It would be extremely out of character.
3) If Sirius is dead (which he isn't), then what the heck was PoA for? If not to give Harry dreams that would be crushed? I thought Rowling cared about Harry. If she did, she wouldn't want to cause him more emotional pain than the awful trauma he has already faced.
I must admit that I had taken Sirius off the "Book 5 death list" for this precise reason. Surely JKR wasn't going to kill off Sirius when Harry had already lost both his parents. I, too, was very, very sad when I realized that he was dead. I can see now why she did it, though: Harry needs to experience Love in all its forms to be able to vanquish Voldemort in the end. He needs to know the force which is "more wonderful and more terrible" than everything else (and I believe that this force is Love) in all aspects. He misses his parents but hasn't really felt the sorrow of their deaths. He saw Cedric die, but that wasn't a person he truly loved. He has now experienced the strongest and most terrible of all feelings: to watch a loved one die. The death of Sirius is in a way the logical progression of the previous deaths in Harry's life. His parents' death was a "half" experience (love), Cedric's death too (loss). Sirius' death puts the two parts together (love + loss), making Harry really understand the mixed wonderfulness and terribleness of Love. (Plus, it saved him from Voldemort possessing him.)
4) I heard in an interview before OotP was released that Rowling said she would be killing off a character whom she enjoyed writing about. If she enjoyed Sirius so much, then why would she make his fans hurt like this? The answer is: she doesn't enjoy writing about him as much as the Death Eaters. Weren't some Death Eaters killed?
In OotP, exactly two people die: Sirius and Bode. JKR said indeed in an interview that one of Harry's "fans," an important character would die, and that this would be a "terrible death" to write. None of the Death Eaters dies in the battle in the DoM, no students or teachers die during the year. Bode can't be the one JKR was talking about because 1) he was introduced in OotP and 2) he wasn't an important character. Did anyone cry when Bode was killed by the plant? I don't think so. A "terrible death" means what it says: that it hurts. I don't think JKR enjoyed killing off Sirius (remember how she said she cried for a long time after doing it) but that it was necessary to the plot. She didn't do it to be mean. The Harry Potter books, though perceived as such by a lot of people, aren't fairy tales for little children. They're dark and getting darker. They are, despite all the magic going on, more realist that fantastic, I think.
I think we probably haven't seen the last of Sirius, though. He'll come back in some form. Not as a ghost, I don't think, but he'll be present. As Luna said, "Oh come on, you heard them, just behind the veil, didn't you? They were just lurking out of sight, that's all"
another from mugglenet.com:
Death of Sirius Black: Real or Just a Set-Up?
Thanks to all who wrote in for their wonderful comments about Luna Lovegood. I received a lot of interesting theories from you all that I might come back and speculate on later. However, it is now time to talk about this week’s topic: the death of Sirius Black. By the way, for those of you who have not yet read Order of the Phoenix, you may not want to read this quite yet, but now you know who died!
First of all, let me say that Sirius’ death to me was not that huge of a deal (I am probably very insensitive). But the death itself happened very quickly and probably a lot of you missed it the first time through. Basically, here are the details again quickly. Harry and his friends are in the Department of Mysteries located in the Ministry of Magic. Harry was summoned there by a vision he had of Voldemort capturing Sirius. Harry and his friends fight the Death Eaters because they want a prophecy egg thing that Harry has. Eventually, when nearly all hope is lost, members of the Order arrive. They all fight off the Death Eaters, and Sirius goes for his cousin Bellatrix Lestrange. They battle it out, Sirius is very calm. Dumbledore arrives and everyone stops fighting except for the duo. Bellatrix hits Sirius with a jet of red light and Sirius disappears behind the mysterious veil. The end.
Well, not quite the end, or at least many of you think. Let me tell you what I think. I do not think Sirius is dead. However, I do not think that he will come back. This veil thing is very mysterious (I started to discuss it in the last article) and I am not sure yet how it works. I believe, though, that it may be a sort of entryway into the “underworld” or maybe even something like purgatory (somewhere between Heaven and Hell). I also believe that this veil is something that is experimental or outlawed in some way (like a former means of the death penalty). The reason I think this is because of the location. Harry recognizes the set-up of the room from his trial for the Wizengamot. I definitely believe that death or some horrible punishment can be found behind the veil. Why else would they have a courtroom surrounding it? Also, the veil and archway are described as “ancient” and therefore may not have been moved, meaning it probably has been there for a VERY long time. What if this thing behind the veil was something terrible, reserved only for those who had received the worst punishment imaginable (worse than death)?
I believe, though, that this veil is some sort of doorway to a different dimension, whether it be an alternate universe, Heaven, Hell, Purgatory, Punishment, whatever! There are so many possibilities and I could write for hours and hour about it them all.
One thing I am pretty sure of though, is that we will not see Sirius in his completely human form again. Rowling characterized his disappearance as a death, which is surprisingly permanent, and so although he may not be completely dead, we will not have our same Sirius back again.
I personally believe that this part of the storyline sounds familiar. For those who have studied Greek mythology, it sounds a lot like Orpheus. Orpheus’ wife died, devastating him. He begged the gods to allow him to descend into the Underworld to fetch his innocent wife. The gods allowed him to, as long as he did not look at her until they had ascended back to Earth. Of course, his curiosity overcame him, he peeked, and she disappeared forever. I think that there is room for a similar situation with Harry. Although, because of the description as “death” by Rowling, Harry will not have the opportunity to save Sirius.
In the final chapter of Order of the Phoenix, Harry discussed death with Nearly-Headless Nick. Nick says that Sirius will not come back as a ghost and that he will have “gone on.” I believe him! Just because Harry is a “children’s book” does not mean that Rowling can temporarily kill off characters! The arrival of this book clearly demonstrated that this series is no longer full of sugar for kids! Death and pain has become a staple in this series and Rowling can kill off anyone she likes because it is her story to create.
So what am I doing here? Speculating. The veil has something to do with death or the “next stage.” I do not think that Sirius’ death is a set-up. Nor do I think that it is necessarily real. I know that I have confused you now! I am sure that some of you will write to me and exclaim that the other Order members seem way too happy at the end of the book for Sirius to really be dead. Granted, this is true. However, maybe they needed Sirius out of the way. Maybe it is a blessing in disguise for Harry. Perhaps he needed that death to really make him angry enough to go after Voldemort. Nations and individuals must sacrifice those close to them for the better of the cause. The death of Sirius is an example.
I do think, though, that there is hope for Sirius fans. I think that somehow we will communicate with Sirius again (see Orpheus myth). If anything, Sirius’ will live on through Harry through determination. Sirius does not get over things easily and would want revenge. This is one thing that we know Harry inherited. If you think that Order of the Phoenix was dark, just think about Books Six and Seven!
Before you all crash the feedback system, remember to look for facts and clues and try not to let emotions get in the way. It is tough to do (I should know as an historian in training), but those who want Sirius to come back will get skewed facts. Read more carefully and objectively and you will see the facts as well!
i think you have a good idea and if i had not read the book ten times i would believe you but think of the part when harry spoke with nick nick said that sirrius wouldn't come back and that sirrius wouldn't take the same way nick took nick said only people who are scared of the death would choose a life as a ghost. but maybe harry will see him again or talk with him but he wouldn't come back.
Ok, I'v got a completely different theory. No matter how much Rowling says that Sirius is dead, I' have to say that she knew that the continuing anger and protest from the millions of Sirius fan would go out of hand, as it already has, and thats why she's done some certain things so as to pave the way for Sitius's return. Notice how Tonks (who only 3 years into th Auror job, and obiously hasen't seen any death) passes out before his disappearance behind the veil, all those people who haven't seen death are not in that room (viz, Ron Hermione, Ginny ect.) and all the other people in that room including the Order of the Phoenix member and Death Eaters have not only seen death but also have killed their enemy, so their ability to see thestrals is nothing unusual and they will not bother about it. And we are forgetting one thing folks, it all happened in the DoM, Dumbledore himself said something like there are MANY mysterious objects in the department of Mysteries and the locked room is ONE of them, which also means that the veil is one of the mysterious objects there too, and besides the mysterious power that is inside the mysterious locked room also happens to be in Harry's possession in great number, notice how Dumbledore himself says the word 'mysterious', the Dumbledore who knew from the start that one of the Wizengamot member might have sent those 2 dementors after Harry. So I think Harry will pull Sirius out of that veil (which seems like a gateway to another dimension or somehting).
I seriously seriously doubt he's dead. Why? Because it's a pointless death, and because the falling through the veil is so friggin' mysterious. If you wanted to kill him, have Voldemort hit him with a spell or something. But having him fall through this veil...un-bloody likely. What would Harry learn from that? That everyone he loves is destined to die? That's the only lesson it teaches.
Now, if Sirious came back, seriously screwed up and evil from his time behind the veil, Harry's fight to redeem him would be a kick-ass story. I have more faith in Rowling as a writer than to think she'd write a badly written death like that and just leave it at that.