The Official Naruto series Thread

Originally posted by AuraAngel
He lost to Naruto while Kurama was off doing something else. Naruto in his base form, with the chakra only around his hand, stopped the moon splitting attack and curbed him pretty solidly. Naruto is certainly more powerful working with Kurama than Naruto on his own.

You forget that Naruto only possessed half of Kurama during the War arc, and that he possessed both halves during The LAST.

When Kurama was completely released, he appeared in physical form during The LAST. The fact that he was a chakra avatar, paired with the fact that Naruto still had BSM activated, points toward only a portion of Kurama being diverted to the Golem. Not that it matters; Toneri was also powering the Golem, it's perfectly fair in the end.

Also, that wasn't Naruto in base. That was actually one of the more interesting parts of the fight; he condensed the chakra of BSM into his hand, which allowed him to stop the Moon-Cutter and defeat Toneri with a Falcon Punch.

Toneri is a powerful Otsutsuki that possesses Rinnegan-calibre dojutsu. I'm unconvinced that Naruto during the War arc could have handled him, honestly.

Did ya see a cape? It was the KCM that he used against the Edo Kage. No Bijuudama, no partial manifestation of Kyuubi chakra(besides the one fighting the Golem obviously), and that doesn't change the fact that Naruto is base is reacting to the attack. He wasn't relying on Kurama's help at all. If he was it ruins the point of the fight.

The design changing is hardly proof; his BSM doesn't have a cape in Boruto either, but we know for a fact he's using it there.

The design is all we have to go on. He never asks for more help from Kurama, they don't work together in the fight, and it's hardly a fight for Hinata is Naruto is getting Kurama to help him win. Literally nothing in the fight suggests he is using his full mode.

Out of these three images which one looks the most like this? The design, the choreography, and the thematic point of the fight points to Naruto beating Toneri on his own while Kurama fought something unimpressive elsewhere.

Also this image is very much an indication that Naruto is fighting with more of his EoS power than the one in the last. Mostly because the Last began production quite a bit before Naruto ended and was still drawing on material early in the battle with Tobi.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
The design is all we have to go on.

Again, the design isn't much of an indicator; his form in Boruto is definitely BSM and we see that it also only cloaks over his given outfit, adding no capes.

and it's hardly a fight for Hinata is Naruto is getting Kurama to help him win.

...what?

the choreography

Elaborate.

Originally posted by NewGuy01

Naruto pre-Hagoromo just isn't better than Hashirama. He possesses a similar measure of chakra (with 1/2 Kurama+Senjutsu), and similar regenerative powers, but he simply falls short in every other area. This should be clear by how dismissive Madara is of him every time they fight, frankly; and Naruto has no answer to the Thousand Hand Statue at this point.

That tier list isn't solely about combat capabilities though, and Q99 places a lot of weight on support abilities.
Naruto's ability to amp an entire army to the point where they can no-sell a Tenpenchii, is far above any support ability Hashirama has.

That said, I'd support 'Naruto Uzumaki (Kurama partnership with Power Lending/Sage Chakra)' being merged with 'Naruto Uzumaki (Full Partnership)' and put into SS, the same tier as Hashirama.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Again, the design isn't much of an indicator; his form in Boruto is definitely BSM and we see that it also only cloaks over his given outfit, adding no capes.

I'd like to add that the version of BSM Naruto used to fight Momoshiki was Six paths senjutsu. He may no longer possess the EoS cloak/powers that came with it(non-glowing skin,goudama, flight, etc..) but he doesn't have a delay to charge it up and there's no orange pigmentation around the eyes.

As for Naruto(full partnership/chakra lending), Madara and Hashirama(both mortal) should still have the arsenal to deal with him in an actual fight.

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
I'd like to add that the version of BSM Naruto used to fight Momoshiki was Six paths senjutsu. He may no longer possess the EoS cloak/powers that came with it(non-glowing skin,goudama, flight, etc..) but he doesn't have a delay to charge it up and there's no orange pigmentation around the eyes.

I don't see any logical reason to assume this. He doesn't have SPS's characteristic golden eyes, nor does he have any of it's abilities or traits. He doesn't have to charge up any of his forms.

Also, I've decided that I might agree with you Aura...

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
I'd like to add that the version of BSM Naruto used to fight Momoshiki was Six paths senjutsu. He may no longer possess the EoS cloak/powers that came with it(non-glowing skin,goudama, flight, etc..) but he doesn't have a delay to charge it up and there's no orange pigmentation around the eyes.

As for Naruto(full partnership/chakra lending), Madara and Hashirama(both mortal) should still have the arsenal to deal with him in an actual fight.

So that's one point in favour ("no orange pigmentation"😉 and a host of points ("EoS cloak/powers that came with it(non-glowing skin,goudama, flight, etc.."😉) against.

In a straight fight, those two have an inherent advantage over Bijuu mode Naruto, thanks to Mokuton. EMS Madara is not so fortunate.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
I don't see any logical reason to assume this. He doesn't have SPS's characteristic golden eyes, nor does he have any of it's abilities or traits. He doesn't have to charge up any of his forms.

Also, I've decided that I might agree with you Aura...

Thank you. :3

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
So that's one point in favour ("no orange pigmentation"😉 and a host of points ("EoS cloak/powers that came with it(non-glowing skin,goudama, flight, etc.."😉) against.

In a straight fight, those two have an inherent advantage over Bijuu mode Naruto, thanks to Mokuton. EMS Madara is not so fortunate.

I assumed he was opperating at that level because otherwise he is demonstrably weaker than Sasuke, which I don't think the film is implying. Also helps that they're very clearly drawing parallels with the showdown vs Juubidara.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
I don't see any logical reason to assume this. He doesn't have SPS's characteristic golden eyes, nor does he have any of it's abilities or traits. He doesn't have to charge up any of his forms.

Also, I've decided that I might agree with you Aura...

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
So that's one point in favour ("no orange pigmentation"😉 and a host of points ("EoS cloak/powers that came with it(non-glowing skin,goudama, flight, etc.."😉) against.

In a straight fight, those two have an inherent advantage over Bijuu mode Naruto, thanks to Mokuton. EMS Madara is not so fortunate.

Oh and I meant Madara(w/ Rinnegan&Mokuton) when referring to mortal. EMS Madara was able to tank Kurama(complete) bijudama so he has to his name right?

Originally posted by AuraAngel
Thank you. :3

Upon closer inspection of the design, I noticed that KCM Naruto always had orange eyes whereas BSM Naruto always had red eyes, to support your other comments about the design. On top of that, he *does* only use KCM techs (Planetary Rasengan, Rasenshuriken, etc). That being said, this would be "KSM", and would probably be stronger by virtue of Naruto having both Yang and Yin Kurama.

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
I mean that Naruto usually has a delay when activating his regular Sage Mode:

You seem to have forgotten that this problem was eradicated when Kurama learned to gather Senjutsu for Naruto.

I also think he kept the ability to touch goudama, something that not even Sage Mode allows, which is why I came to that conclusion.

He never touches Gudoudama.

By the way, I'd like to hear an argument about why EMS Madara is "out of luck" against BSM Naruto in the war arc. Last I checked he's still a ways better at taijutsu, his ninjutsu was more powerful than his Edo counterpart, and his Perfect Susano'o is more powerful than Naruto's Biju Mode at the time.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
You seem to have forgotten that this problem was eradicated when Kurama learned to gather Senjutsu for Naruto.

Originally posted by NewGuy01

He never touches Gudoudama.

By the way, I'd like to hear an argument about why EMS Madara is "out of luck" against BSM Naruto in the war arc. Last I checked he's still a ways better at taijutsu, his ninjutsu was more powerful than his Edo counterpart, and his Perfect Susano'o is more powerful than Naruto's Biju Mode at the time.

As for Madara, I think EMS would stand a fair shot against him. He did subdue Kurama in the past and his Susanoo is able to tank bijudama from it at point blank range. He doesn't possess senjutsu so I can't really vouch for the taijutsu department.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
I assumed he was opperating at that level because otherwise he is demonstrably weaker than Sasuke, which I don't think the film is implying. Also helps that they're very clearly drawing parallels with the showdown vs Juubidara.

Yeah, but that doesn't mean that they were as powerful in Boruto as they were when they fought Madara & Kaguya.
They both lost their respective Six Paths seals and their half of Hagoromo's chakra, so they both lost power.
Yep, they're still equals. I think the movie guidebook states as much.

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka

I'm only stating that Naruto should still have Six Path senjutsu not the SoSP mode that came attacked to it. He's still an pseudo-juubi jinchuriku afterall.

Oh and I meant Madara(w/ Rinnegan&Mokuton) when referring to mortal. EMS Madara was able to tank Kurama(complete) bijudama so he has to his name right?

Those two are tied together. He can't have one without the other.

I know. I was agreeing with you and pointing out that those two have a natural advantage against Naruto thanks to Mokuton.

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
Oh right but Naruto seems to do it on his own at times as well in the Gaiden hence my initial statement.

No, in Gaiden it was instantaneous as well.

Didn't he touch Tonrei's at one point?

...with a Rasengan, yes. He did this against Obito too.

He doesn't possess senjutsu so I can't really vouch for the taijutsu department.

...Sasuke doesn't have Senjutsu either.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix

Those two are tied together. He can't have one without the other.

I know. I was agreeing with you and pointing out that those two have a natural advantage against Naruto thanks to Mokuton.

Originally posted by NewGuy01

...with a Rasengan, yes. He did this against Obito too.

Why would he be unable to contend with Sasuke's Rinnegan? All it appears to be good for is Amenotejikara, to be honest. He seems to be either unskilled with or uninclined to use the Six Paths.

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
If that's the case then shouldn't Sasuke be alot more powerful than Naruto. Not sure if only getting complete Kurama would've been enough to contend with Sasuke's Rinnegan but then again the Boruto movie portrayed them as equals mostly so there's that.

Naruto has all of Kurama's chakra to match up to Sasuke.

Yang-Kurama seems to be on par with the other Bijuu. Once you add Yin-Kurama's chakra and Naruto's own chakra to the mix, Naruto's chakra capacity would be far beyond that of any other Bijuu.

So his raw power output would probably have stayed the same, if not increased, thanks to Kurama, but since he can no longer access the chakra of the other Bijuus, he's lost a good deal of hax and versatility (which is Sasuke's schtick anyway)

Hokage!Naruto certainly possesses comparable Biju chakra to EoS Naruto; issue is, he lacks the potent Six Paths chakra, which is the key to Naruto/Sasuke's power EoS.