Originally posted by King Kandyi though that was true myself since his bow is shaped like a shield, i;m just not going to say it is so without proof
Sasuke manifested the complete susanoo Itachi had at the end of his fight with Kakashi; it was cut short, but I can only assume that it had all the powers of the original.
i do think that if he does infact have the items, he's going to be the one to mess up kabuto's overwhelming ace in the hole (again, laying eyes on itachi)
The number of people in a tier is pretty irrelevant. The way I have it, there are 9 people in S+, compared to 8 in S, or 4 in SS.
Besides, I want SS in there too.
Mainly for people like Nagato, current Madara, and perhaps current Naruto and Sasuke.
I don't think one needs to shove many people into S+ in order to have a double-S, so don't worry there 🙂
Against any foe he gains an advantage. Against Jinchurikii, he'd be pushed to the top of S+ tier, if not into SS- territory.On top of being an S class proper by himself (bijuu level chakra + insane strength & durability + excellent physical stats + excellent Suiton user & good Doton user), he has Samehada which pretty much allows him to rob an opponent of their chakra and use it for himself for anything, including regeneration.
IMO, the stats and known jutsu skill and regen put him at A+. The Biju chakra rises him to S-. The addition of the ability to steal chakra thanks to the sword puts him at S against most foes (Gai, Kakashi, Jiraiya, Oro, etc.), S+ against chakra-heavy foes.
Samehada Kisame doesn't think he can beat non-Sage Jiraiya. Non-Sage Jiraiya is S.
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And it's worth remembering, each category is BIG, especially in the higher ranks.
I'd suggest using Sage Mode Jiraiya and Orochimaru as the limits to S+ as well. Shinobi capable of giving them a hard fight(not beat them) would suit the S+ class nicely in my opinion.
Kisame...I'd actually leave him in S. His sword and attacks are very powerful weapons and all, but I think they have their faults. As far as his regeneration is concerned, I find it a little faulty honestly. We've only seen him use it once(I think?) and that was after absorbing a ton of chakra from Bee. He may need more chakra for that than most shinobi could supply. Also, deadly though his attacks may be, they aren't anymore deadly than Sasori's poison or Deidera's bombs, both characters being in S as well. Not that I'm saying Kisame would lose to them of course, but that each is deadly in their own right and weak to certain types of fighters(Sasori's is experienced medics that are prepared, Deidera's would be raiton users or those with a dojutsu, and Kisame's being taijutsu fights)
That's just my opinion though. I typically am worthless and so are my opinions.
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Too stringent and arbitrary to rely upon 'beating 4-Tailed Naruto' as a measuring stick. Using Jiraiya or another ninja as the cut-off makes more sense IMO, but I view even that as arbitrary, simply because comparing ninja to another one will give skewed results in certain cases.Deidara for one could likely beat 4 Tailed Naruto if he puts enough distance (entering a close range fight is suicide for nearly anyone, never mind Deidara) and uses C4.
Kisame would just use Samehada and absorb the chakra, or he could use his Water Prison Shark Dance Technique to slowly KO Naruto. Not that this matters anyway, since I think Kisame with Samehada is S+ already. Him having Samehada & facing off against Naruto in 4 Tailed mode, would only make him stronger.While Orochimaru never specifically stated that Sasuke could only beat Naruto because of his ability to suppress the Kyuubi's power, that does seem to be the case. However, I doubt Orochimaru knew about it, at least until it was demonstrated during the Sasuke-Team 7 fight.
That said, even among Sharingan users, it is incredibly rare as the Kyuubi was surprised. So not every Uchiha with the Sharingan would be able to suppress the Kyuubi's power. Any Uchiha with the MS would likely be able to control the Kyuubi though.Base Jiraiya is likely S- or S, but because of his Imperfect Sage Mode, and the Elders constantly supplying Natural Energy to him (among other benefits, like that Hax genjutsu), he's S+ IMO.
I amend my earlier statement about Part 1 Orochimaru being S. Even Part 1 Orochimaru was S+, thanks mainly to Edo Tensei. I had forgotten that in his Sannin fight, he lacked most of his ninjutsu and his arms. Manda's also a very powerful summon.
Part 2 Orochimaru is definitely S+ proper. While nearly at his limit, he was able to take on 4 Tailed Naruto and walk away smiling. The dude has insane 'regen' as well.Itachi with Susano'o would destroy even ET ninjas. It seals them, which is what the Death God did.
You're right: there's too many people that have techs/abilities that specifically counter large amounts of chakra from beasts (kisame, Yamato, and all three main uchiha's (Itachi, Madara, Sasuke)).
However, that's it. For everyone else, it still works great as a meter stick.
It makes perfect sense that that was what Orochimaru meant: how else is Sasuke supposed to beat a 4-tails Naruto? Seems nigh impossible until you see that he can null all of that Chakra with his cheating eyes.
And, yes, Jiraiya is defo s+ in sage mode. Even if Kisame took a swipe at him, it would turn Samehada to stone and/or Kisame to stone if he tried to immediately absorb some of the sage chakra Samehada absorbed. Chakra depleters are "pwned" by Sage Chakra users. I think it's also a nice counter to Shino's bugs...as long as the Sage user continue to gather sage chakra while the bugs absorb it. But, I do not see Shino sitting there while all his bugs turn to stone.
Anyway, yeah, we are mostly in agreement, but I think that outside of the people I listed, it's an excellent meter stick of measuring where people are on the scale. Keep in mind that the scale is ALWAYS going to be relative. If every character was around S class, then we'd re-adjust the scale. So,l the only way to really make a relative scale is by make it relative to something: aka, why I called it a meter stick. 4-tails Naruto seems like a good measure as it's very fast, very strong, very hard to hurt, very high destructive capabilities, but can be taken down. Unless you think 4-tails is too strong to use as the S+ class benchmark?
Originally posted by Q99
IMO, the stats and known jutsu skill and regen put him at A+. The Biju chakra rises him to S-. The addition of the ability to steal chakra thanks to the sword puts him at S against most foes (Gai, Kakashi, Jiraiya, Oro, etc.), S+ against chakra-heavy foes.Samehada Kisame doesn't think he can beat non-Sage Jiraiya. Non-Sage Jiraiya is S.
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And it's worth remembering, each category is BIG, especially in the higher ranks.
A+? I doubt that. In terms of stats and chakra level, he is quite a ways above people like Asuma. Look at his durability. The dude survived Afternoon Tiger, and wasn't even KO'd. Plus he's able to react to Kirabi in Version 2 form.
Meh, putting him (w/o Samehada) in S is perhaps too high, I think, so S- should be fine. Though with Samehada, the abilities it offers him (enhanced and easier chakra stealing, and that Fusion form + Great Exploding Water Colliding Wave combo, which is pretty hax) should lift him to low/mid S+. Top of S+ or SS- territory if he's up against someone like Kirabi, and can handle their speed and such.
And Pain said he believed Jiraiya would beat him if he knew Pain's secret. IMO, such statements are just for show. Plus Kisame wondered why Itachi retreated.
While Sage Jiraiya would have a decent counter to Samehada, I don't think Base Jiraiya would be able to beat Kisame with Samehada.
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Yeah, I know, which is another reason why putting Base Kisame in S is too high, now that I think about it.
Originally posted by Q99
How much should prep work count?Because raising zombies, while awesome, does require human sacrifices ahead of time and are not available on the drop of a hat, and I don't think having it should automatically get one into S+. Ditto a few billion explosive tags.
If it's something that can be done easily, it should be included in the rating, instead of using a different version. For example, while Edo Tensei requires human sacrifices, Orochimaru literally has hundreds of thousands of potential sacrifices, and he wouldn't hesitate to use them. Though even without Edo Tensei, he's still S+ IMO.
For the few billion explosive tags, dunno. I think it took a bit of time.
What about current Kabuto? He might have access to all of Orochimaru's just, a much stronger main summon, and a better Edo Tensei. Though I think he lacks the Kusanagi, and Orochimaru's physical stats.
Originally posted by dadudemon
It makes perfect sense that that was what Orochimaru meant: how else is Sasuke supposed to beat a 4-tails Naruto? Seems nigh impossible until you see that he can null all of that Chakra with his cheating eyes.
It does not really make perfect sense. Orochimaru could never have known that Sasuke would be able to suppress the Kyuubi with just his Base Sharingan, which is why I don't think that was what he meant.
Or Sasuke is just that strong. vin
After all, one Tailed Naruto gave problems to VotE Sasuke, but couldn't fully put him down. Sasuke post Timeskip had improved by a huge amount, far more so than any other End of part 1 genin had.
Even without Sharingan Hax, Sasuke still has a way to KO 4 Tailed Naruto: Kirin.
Originally posted by dadudemon
And, yes, Jiraiya is defo s+ in sage mode. Even if Kisame took a swipe at him, it would turn Samehada to stone and/or Kisame to stone if he tried to immediately absorb some of the sage chakra Samehada absorbed.
Good point, but it wouldn't turn Samehada to stone instantly. The Preta Path was able to revert Sage Mode Naruto to Base Naruto, and he didn't turn to stone. It was only after Naruto re-entered Sage Mode that he turned to stone.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Anyway, yeah, we are mostly in agreement, but I think that outside of the people I listed, it's an excellent meter stick of measuring where people are on the scale. Keep in mind that the scale is ALWAYS going to be relative. If every character was around S class, then we'd re-adjust the scale. So,l the only way to really make a relative scale is by make it relative to something: aka, why I called it a meter stick. 4-tails Naruto seems like a good measure as it's very fast, very strong, very hard to hurt, very high destructive capabilities, but can be taken down. Unless you think 4-tails is too strong to use as the S+ class benchmark?
Moreso because very few people have proper counters to 4 Tailed Naruto, and we've only seen it in action once.
6 Tailed Naruto could go into S+.
Personally, I'd put 4T Naruto in S, because Naruto was hurt tremendously once the Transformation subsided. Just like the case with Gai, who has S class level power in 7 Gates mode, but loses the functions of his muscles after he closes the Gates. In terms of power, 4T Naruto might be in S+, or top of S, but because of the huge drawback, it drops down.
IMO, Orochimaru and SM Jiraiya as the benchmark would be better. We know a lot more about them, and along with someone like Danzou and perhaps Hiruzen, they form the upper portion of S+.
Personally I don't feel Samehada enhances him all *that* much against most foes (that much in this context being two levels). Jutsu-wise, he's relatively unvaried, and I'll point out that Asuma was doing quite well against him in melee when he got serious, able to avoid his swordplay and score a hit on his face. Kisame power is extreme, but he's a very power-focused ninja and doesn't have as much finesse as some of the jonin.
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
What about current Kabuto? He might have access to all of Orochimaru's just, a much stronger main summon, and a better Edo Tensei. Though I think he lacks the Kusanagi, and Orochimaru's physical stats.
Personal combat wise he hasn't shown the same level yet IMO. No 8-headed giant snake form, and his whitesnake mode was different and IMO less impressive than Oro's.
I mean, he's tricky to rate. He's better than Oro at Edo but seems weaker directly.