Originally posted by Q99I know right?
Madara only wanted two casualties when he made his declaration, Killerbee and Naruto (and if Naruto's Uzumaki DNA let him live, he'd probably be fine with that too). If everyone else hadn't been such big babies about being trapped in an eternal illusion, there'd be no war.
Originally posted by dadudemonInteresting piece of material here had to take some time to articulate how I wanted to respond.
Long essay time: read only if you’re interested in characters and their development. Otherwise, it’s just a waste of time and almost complete speculation.Does A need to be smacked down and/or put in his place by someone (like Naruto) so he’ll stop with his crappy attitude and arrogance? Most definitely. But what about Naruto?
Is Naruto going the way of A: becoming complacent in his attitude and abilities because of his string of victories and “child of prophecy” title?
Is Naruto being too much of a tard by wanting to fight so much?
I’m mostly on the fence about this but I’ll try to voice both sides as best as I can.
Naruto is not becoming complacent in his abilities, but his motivations are making him appear stupid and arrogant. When he’s serious, he does not brag about his abilities. In fact, as of late, he has been very mature to most of his situations. He is listening to the advice of others for his training, quite readily. He is strongly motivated to become a better ninja to fulfill his and his master’s dream of being a truly loving and friendly ninja (to stop the “cycle of pain). He does seem naïve about this specific pursuit but, in reality, it’s all of the other characters that are naïve and Naruto only SEEMS naïve because the others do not want to cast away their prejudices and hate. Naruto actually has the more intelligent approach: forgive and stop the cycle of pain. It’s naïve to think that getting your revenge will provide satisfaction and end the pain: it doesn’t. So, technically, Naruto is the one that is not naïve an all others are the naïve ones. Naruto has realized at a super young age (beyond what even the oldest of ninjas have done) that the sh*t has to stop somewhere or it will never stop.
But onwards to his complacency: is he becoming a douche, as of late, with his “fight in the war” pursuit? I have a really hard time saying anything but “yes, he’s becoming a freaking idiot.” But here’s his justification: “They are all fighting for me to build a better world but in the process, most of them will die leaving few to share that new world with and defeating my entire purpose of building a new world together.” I understand his point: it doesn’t matter if they win when many of them are dying. He can feel their lives being snuffed out for his sake. He would rather die fighting for them than to allow them to die for him. He is confident that his participation would greatly turn the tied in the SA’s favor and that’s the truth. Naruto has the speed and strength of A, the chakra of B, the battle smarts of Kakashi, the techniques of Minato and Jiraiya, and ninja friends from multiple nations. BUT, the problem with that: if (and it could actually be a possibility of when, not if) Naruto gets captured, the war is largely over.
However, and this is major speculation: it would appear that B is actually the only piece left and Naruto can fight all he wants. Here’s why: Madara already captured enough 9-tails chakra in the form of the Brothers. He doesn’t need Naruto anymore so Naruto can participate. It’s possible Naruto detected this as he did make mention of it, vaguely.
So should Naruto back down? Maybe. I see him backing down and hiding as a good choice, for the moment. But why can’t Naruto make some shadow clones to help fight? Surely a Sage Mode shadow clone is worth 2-3 low S-rank ninja? Naruto could make 2 or 3 at a time and really lend a major hand WHILE reducing the casualties. I see the current situation as more of a plot device than being necessary.
Naruto is being stupid, but he’s not arrogant or complacent like A. I would still like Naruto to beat down A but I would also like to see something revealed that:
1. Makes Naruto’s participation not needed.
2. Makes Naruto back down.These were my thoughts. Lots of thoughts.
Please, critique,point out errors, inject your own thoughts, add to mine, etc.
As for Naruto... well I feel like your essay neglects to adress the strongest, most important, and most obvious character motivation that drives Naruto which is his sheer NEED (almost an instinct at this point) to uphold, support, and protect the bonds of friendship he's come to aquire. We're talking about a kid who will vigorously and violently jump to the defense of an enemy just for connecting with them on SOME sort of sympathetic level at all. It's no small wonder why he would cherish the people whom actually consider him a friend as well... and that's really what I see when reading through the last few chapters. Naruto can sense everything that's going on, he can feel it. His reaction isn't only something I can understand but something I can relate to.
After struggling for sooo long to get his peers to acknowledge him, to like him, to actually defend him, it's natural to desperately cling onto those relationships as a result of being alone and ostracized for even longer.
Is Naruto being stupid? I suppose one COULD make that argument but to me, he's just being Naruto; if he DIDN'T go hauling ass to the aid of his friends I'd actually be shocked, dissapointed and pissed at the unnatural change of his character. Even looking to the beginning of the series at Naruto's obsession to become Hokage, one can determine that Naruto has since early childhood idolized a position which by it's very nature deems a sense of selflessness even at the cost of one's own life. One example after the next has shown Naruto the price and pay-off of self sacrifice. I don't think arrogance is actually part of the equation here either, or complacency for that matter. I think all these things are being misidentified in place of what's really there, and what's always been there and that's determination. Naruto has a responsibility to his village yes, but foremost he has a responsibility to his friends (ex: Sasuke) and there is no way that he would let them take the fall for him.
And, to be honest from a strategic stance I don't see what point there is in trying to stop him anymore. Madara has the 9 tails chakra at this point anyways, the ratio of army to army is the same now as when the war started iirc, and the Zetsu's are getting more formidable literally overnight. The alliance hasn't made an ounce of actual progress yet, and at this rate Madara's forces will win with thousands to spare, plus, Kabuto's still using that damned forbidden zombie jutsu. There's no reason for Naruto (or anyone else really) to think that the ninja alliance has the ability or option even to successfully "protect" Naruto IMO. At this point they're just stalling the inevitable.
If anyone should be kept under wraps right now, it's definitely B. So no I don't feel Naruto's being stupid at all. If it was me, and my friends were in danger, I wouldn't want to sit and do nothing while they died and I was left to wonder "what ifs". right now Naruto's headstrong, overprotective actions are in line with his character development since the start of the series, he's definitely much more competent about things at the moment, but I definitely have no issues with his decisions in context to the story line thus far.
Originally posted by Q99
Madara only wanted two casualties when he made his declaration, Killerbee and Naruto (and if Naruto's Uzumaki DNA let him live, he'd probably be fine with that too). If everyone else hadn't been such big babies about being trapped in an eternal illusion, there'd be no war.
Maybe it because nobody wants an Uchiha controlling the rest of their existence. Killing people for magical eye balls isn't really leader material.
Oh! and to hell with free will TheAuraAngel, how did you think Taka Sasuke came into existence.
Originally posted by jinzin
Interesting piece of material here had to take some time to articulate how I wanted to respond.
First, on a small note, A getting a beatdown isn't likely to change his character at all. As you assessed he was likely humbled by Minato and still belittles him. He lost an arm against Sasuke and it didn't even phase his personality. I doubt any amount of beating is the solution to his attitude problem.As for Naruto... well I feel like your essay neglects to adress the strongest, most important, and most obvious character motivation that drives Naruto which is his sheer NEED (almost an instinct at this point) to uphold, support, and protect the bonds of friendship he's come to aquire. We're talking about a kid who will vigorously and violently jump to the defense of an enemy just for connecting with them on SOME sort of sympathetic level at all. It's no small wonder why he would cherish the people whom actually consider him a friend as well... and that's really what I see when reading through the last few chapters. Naruto can sense everything that's going on, he can feel it. His reaction isn't only something I can understand but something I can relate to.
After struggling for sooo long to get his peers to acknowledge him, to like him, to actually defend him, it's natural to desperately cling onto those relationships as a result of being alone and ostracized for even longer.
Is Naruto being stupid? I suppose one COULD make that argument but to me, he's just being Naruto; if he DIDN'T go hauling ass to the aid of his friends I'd actually be shocked, dissapointed and pissed at the unnatural change of his character. Even looking to the beginning of the series at Naruto's obsession to become Hokage, one can determine that Naruto has since early childhood idolized a position which by it's very nature deems a sense of selflessness even at the cost of one's own life. One example after the next has shown Naruto the price and pay-off of self sacrifice. I don't think arrogance is actually part of the equation here either, or complacency for that matter. I think all these things are being misidentified in place of what's really there, and what's always been there and that's determination. Naruto has a responsibility to his village yes, but foremost he has a responsibility to his friends (ex: Sasuke) and there is no way that he would let them take the fall for him.
And, to be honest from a strategic stance I don't see what point there is in trying to stop him anymore. Madara has the 9 tails chakra at this point anyways, the ratio of army to army is the same now as when the war started iirc, and the Zetsu's are getting more formidable literally overnight. The alliance hasn't made an ounce of actual progress yet, and at this rate Madara's forces will win with thousands to spare, plus, Kabuto's still using that damned forbidden zombie jutsu. There's no reason for Naruto (or anyone else really) to think that the ninja alliance has the ability or option even to successfully "protect" Naruto IMO. At this point they're just stalling the inevitable.
If anyone should be kept under wraps right now, it's definitely B. So no I don't feel Naruto's being stupid at all. If it was me, and my friends were in danger, I wouldn't want to sit and do nothing while they died and I was left to wonder "what ifs". right now Naruto's headstrong, overprotective actions are in line with his character development since the start of the series, he's definitely much more competent about things at the moment, but I definitely have no issues with his decisions in context to the story line thus far.
Well said and bravo.
I think there's two interpretations on Naruto's actions and I mostly outlined that in my long-ass post: he's making a stupid decision and he's making a great decision.
It really depends on what is revealed about what's what in Madara's plan. I did make mention of the brother's chakra being gathered by Madara, too...so we both pointed out a really good reason for Naruto to participate, anyway.
Additionally, Naruto should be able to send in some Shadow clones that are IN sage-mode. There's no reason he couldn't. It' just a plot device, at this point, to keep them from fighting with shadow clones.
Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
I know some of you might disagree with this but is it weird that A, would be, best feat is punching Naruto? I know some might say the Susanoo punching feat was better but it was incomple so....
Susano'o's a defensive jutsu that threw off a lot of attacks, also we saw the collateral damage of those strikes (i.e. a lot). Naruto's not shown much in this form.
I think the former's more impressive.
Dodging Amaterasu too.
Best Strength Feat....I probably should've specified that. A only punched through the ribcage no the more developed one that blocked the destructive attacks.
Plus if Naruto's new form shares the same properties as the tail cloaks, then it potentially shares the Kusanagi blocking feat as well..which is still impressive.
It still burned through the Raiton armor.
So...
Spoiler:
Minato might be strong after all. That scene clearly indicated that he was about to **** A's shield up and he cut clean through the 8-tails tentacles. Him doing so suggest he is really strong. Or that he used natural chakra.
Spoiler:
Oh yeah, and I get the eery feeling Kishi is looking at this thread and thinking he wants to settle who wins. Wave to Kishi everyone and thank him for not being Kubo!
Spoiler:
A is still an ass Kishi. Please fix that.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
So...Spoiler:
Minato might be strong after all. That scene clearly indicated that he was about to **** A's shield up and he cut clean through the 8-tails tentacles. Him doing so suggest he is really strong. Or that he used natural chakra.Spoiler:
Oh yeah, and I get the eery feeling Kishi is looking at this thread and thinking he wants to settle who wins. Wave to Kishi everyone and thank him for not being Kubo!Spoiler:
A is still an ass Kishi. Please fix that.
Spoiler:
I lol'd. I was like..."Sooooo...Kishimoto...you're actually reading this damn thread, aren't you?" I really could not believe it. Also, Minato definitely has the fastest reflexes, by far. There is definitely no contest. The Raikage said "full speed" so there's no doubt that Minato was faster. At least at that time. The Raikage could have gotten faster since then as he clearly has a level 2 shroud that wasn't present there. But, I'd like to point out that he took on B and A at the same time and WTF pwned them without a scratch. 313 I lurv it! 😆 Granted...people will say that neither of those two were at their full power because B got better and A got a level 2 shroud...I know...I know. Also, Minato cut that tentacle with his Kunai so I'm not sure about the strength part. I liked the last few pages of the chapter. The first few pages were "obvious" pages and I did not expect a flash back that said that a jinchuriki has a hard life and has to be loved.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
So...Spoiler:
Minato might be strong after all. That scene clearly indicated that he was about to **** A's shield up and he cut clean through the 8-tails tentacles. Him doing so suggest he is really strong. Or that he used natural chakra.Spoiler:
Oh yeah, and I get the eery feeling Kishi is looking at this thread and thinking he wants to settle who wins. Wave to Kishi everyone and thank him for not being Kubo!Spoiler:
A is still an ass Kishi. Please fix that.
Spoiler:
**** it up? I doubt it. I just thought he was going to attempt a stab, which may or may not have failed.
That said, there was another good reaction feat from Minato, even if he reacted at the last possible instant against A's charge, and avoided because of FTG's instantaneous activation.
Also, I doubt anyone outside of Minato, Madara, Kushina and a few key others, knew about FTG. Thanks to the writing on the Kunai, his enemies would have thought that Minato used pure speed instead of teleportation.A has always been an arrogant ass. Though if anyone can teach him humility, it's Naruto's talk-no-jutsu coupled with Killer Bee's Gary Studom.
Also, nice to see that B was a badass when he was Naruto's age. Clearly B >>> Naruto.
That ninja's reaction to Double Lariat was hilarious.
Originally posted by dadudemonSpoiler:
But, I'd like to point out that he took on B and A at the same time and WTF pwned them without a scratch. 313 I lurv it! 😆 Granted...people will say that neither of those two were at their full power because B got better and A got a level 2 shroud...I know...I know. Also, Minato cut that tentacle with his Kunai so I'm not sure about the strength part. I liked the last few pages of the chapter. The first few pages were "obvious" pages and I did not expect a flash back that said that a jinchuriki has a hard life and has to be loved.
To be fair, only A seemed to be fighting all out. A charged head on, Minato used FTG to port away and back to Raikage, B tried to attack Minato, and Minato cut through part of the tentacle.
The next fight we'll see should be more intense, hopefully.
I'll also point out that Minato had an instantaneous-activation teleportation tech, that his enemies thought to be pure speed/Shunshin, which is likely one of the main reasons why everyone considered him to be the fastest Shinobi alive. Another reason being that his regular speed & reflexes were very high, and the fact that he incorporated FTG into his offense remarkably well.
Originally posted by NemeBro
Minato only just barely avoided A's attack using FTG. 😐Minato only has to think to use it, and A's fist was less than an inch away from his face.
Saying Minato has the best reflexes based on this feat is wank.
Pretty much. He reacted at the last instant, and avoided thanks to FTG's instant activation. He has very good reflexes, just not the best.