Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Kay. Then I'll explain them.1. Wanting to usurp Tsunade is not a good thing. Tsunade, while not perfect, has shown herself to be the ideal Hokage that protects the citizens. She was chosen(actually Jiraiya was but he recommended her instead so it doesn't really matter) to be Hokage and has done a decent job. What Danzo is doing is quite similar to what Konohamaru was doing in chapter 2. He is trying to become Hokage through shortcuts and Naruto, who was friggin 12, knew there wasn't an easy way to do it. What I'm getting at is Danzo is willing to let people die(Not all the people. Gotta have some around so Danzo can feel like he has the traditional big dick that comes with being Hokage) just to get a promotion. And when he doesn't seem to be getting his way, his argument is "No I want it because!"
AHA!
That makes much more sense, now...the Maru scan, that is.
However, I don't think Tsuande was the best choice. In fact, I think that Danzo would have been the best choice right after the Sand invasion.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
2. The fact that he lets Orochimaru attack Konoha is essentially the same thing.
He...did?
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
3. His actions at the Summit reveal him as the power hungry douche that he is. So he begins preaching about how the world needs to be united. Blah blah blah, Stfu you friggin prick. They were trying to be united until you had to stick your sharingan into the mess. You just made it impossible for them to trust you!
No, he did that to ensure the absolute maximum success of Konoha as a military nation. Not to be power hungry. He thought he was the absolute best chance the ninja nations had AND the best for the job to lead them. Not out of arrogance, but because he did not want emotions, idiocy, or bad feelings to get in the way. (Raikage, idiocy. Mei, emotions and bad feelings. Old Man: bad feelings an emotions. Gaara: emotions, bad feelings, and idiocy (however, he was wrong about Gaara because Gaara ended up being the smartest and most level headed one there).
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
4. The reason him calling Itachi a traitor is a bad thing is because Itachi gave up everything for the village. Every single thing he had in his life. Danzo can talk all the shit he wants about sacrificing for the greater good but Itachi can actually back it up. Danzo sacrifices nothing he himself has(cause he is too big a douche to have anything) and doesn't even respect the ultimate sacrifice in the manga. Itachi had one condition, a small one at that. "Please don't hurt Sasuke." Before Itachi even dies, Danzo betrayed him by trying to kill Sasuke. Why? Sasuke wasn't doing anything at this time. Hell, Sasuke was with Orochimaru, whom Danzo was buddy buds with! And then Danzo has the nerve to take the moral high ground and call Itachi the traitor? Second Mizukage! This guy is a monster who, despite whatever the hell Kishi wants me to believe, doesn't care about his village, doesn't care about his soldiers, doesn't care about others at all.
No, Itachi is a a traitor because he let Sasuke live. Letting a single person live would breed revenge (because that's how Uchiha role...not Uzumaki's...not Senju's...but Uchiha's). Look where that ended up getting them? If he had followed orders, Sasuke would not have fudged everything up (however, Sasuke could end up saving everyong at the end of that day...OR becoming the ultimate weapon at the end of the day).
And, no, Sasuke had already betrayed the village by that point. Protecting Sasuke was definitely contingent upon Sasuke not betraying the village. Missing nin, especially ones with THE most highly prized doujutsu: sharingan. Sasuke forfeit his right of protection when he betrayed his village (betrayed the village by becoming a missing nin for his own selfish reason).
And, you're wrong on all your conclusions, at the end. He cares about the overall condition of his village. He knew that there would be casualties in the invasions...but knew that it would net it a better strategic position with him at the helm (long term intelligence). In fact, I think you missed the point of Danzo's character, entirely.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Edit: And you know what? Tobi at least acknowledged that Akatsuki had helped him. Yes the target was Sasuke but he at least seems to "thanking" them for the help. Danzo wouldn't do that. Hell, at least Tobi kept his word to Itachi!
Danzo is a true ninja: using dishonorable tactics for an overall longer term victory. Everyone, including himself, were for the village. Each life was to be sacrificed for the long-term power and political standing of the fire nation.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngelYou clearly have no idea what constitutes a "complete monster," my boy.
He was the best villain in that he was a complete monster I guess. But really, he was a big baby. Not very interesting.Ironically, he had one of the best lines in the manga for all I ***** about him.
Tobi, Kabuto, Orochimaru, Hidan (If he wasn't so funny), these are complete monsters.
Danzo is a Well-Intentioned Extremist, albeit with more emphasis on the "extremist" part. He manages to be human enough to not fall into Complete Monsterdom. Him genuinely caring about Konoha is enough to beat that rap.
Tobi only "thanked" the Akatsuki in a very indirect, pseudo-mocking way.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Then at the very least, he committed treason by letting it happen.
He didn't 'let' anything happen. He just didn't send Root out to fight Pain. Is that treason? Probably. I mean, I'm not saying he wasn't a villian but that doesn't make him 'teh worst villan evar'.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
If by proper ninja you mean the most piss poor excuse for ninja in the series, yeah, I guess he did. So not only did he ruin all the members of Roots lives by brainwashing them since birth, he also didn't have the courtesy to make sure they were capable.
I don't think we've seen what Root is capable of actually. But by ninja I mean people who'll actually kill targets with no mercy, assassinate people and completely follow orders.
Besides which Konoha already makes children fight battles and kill people. So its not like he's way over the top by their standards.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Uh huh. No, it doesn't work like that. Lets take a teacher for an example. A teacher sees two students beating the crap out of another and doesn't stop it. Why? Cause the nurse will take care of the beaten up student. Said teacher would be fired in real life.
Fired, yes, but not go to jail or anything. I hardly see how that equals 'Worst person ever' levels. The point is that he believed that letting a few people die would be better than allowing Tsunade to continue to rule. Is that stupid and misguided? Yes. Is that evil? Yes. Is it the most evil thing ever? No ****ing way.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Agreed. But he is also the leader of the Allied Shinobi Forces. Suck on it Danzo.
Danzo would have ended the war by now.
And there would be peace in our time!
grouchoawe
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
He called the guy who had the hardest choice in the world and deliberately made the one to save Konoha at the cost of his own life a traitor. Honestly, that was revolting. I don't even like Itachi very much but that was crossing the line. Danzo has never had to face such a choice in his life and instead of using common sense, "Dur...Madara was at the Massacre...Sasuke is with Madara...Duh....Itachi you *******." to determine the actual events, he out and out calls Itachi a traitor.
Well, by telling Sasuke about it he would have been a traitor. So I can see where you're coming from but all it does is make him slightly douchey, not impossibly evil.
Of course, Tobi was the one who really told Sasuke about it so wahtever.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
He is a hypocrite. He was going to betray Itachi by killing Sasuke. You know, the loyal shinobi who truly gave everything for the village. Why? **** if I know. Sasuke had no interest at all in hurting Konoha at the time. He didn't even like Orochimaru. Opposed to Danzo, who helped Orochimaru.
Danzo didn't know anything about Sasukes intentions at that point. And again, Sasuke is a massive potential threat and all around complete ****ing lunatic.
Originally posted by dadudemon
He...did?
Orochimaru had to have worked on his arm at one point or another. Best time probably being before the attack. Did you see Danzo or any of Root helping during the Invasion of the Sand.
Originally posted by dadudemon
No, he did that to ensure the absolute maximum success of Konoha as a military nation. Not to be power hungry. He thought he was the absolute best chance the ninja nations had AND the best for the job to lead them. Not out of arrogance, but because he did not want emotions, idiocy, or bad feelings to get in the way. (Raikage, idiocy. Mei, emotions and bad feelings. Old Man: bad feelings an emotions. Gaara: emotions, bad feelings, and idiocy (however, he was wrong about Gaara because Gaara ended up being the smartest and most level headed one there).
But you see, if that was his reasoning, then that would be contradictory. Emotions? Fear that he might not get picked. Pride because he stupidly believes he is the only one who can change the world. He fears the very possibility of not being in power and believes he is the only one who can change the world. Sounds like power hungry to me. And it is certainly consistent with his character.
Originally posted by dadudemon
No, Itachi is a a traitor because he let Sasuke live.
Nope. He states quite clearly "But in telling you his secret, he has betrayed Konoha." For Danzo, it wasn't leaving Sasuke alive that was traitorous. It was telling him the secret. Which Itachi did not do. And Danzo, who should be smart enough to realize this consider Tobi had just said that he was there at the Uchiha Massacre, falsely accused an innocent man.
Originally posted by dadudemon
And, no, Sasuke had already betrayed the village by that point. Protecting Sasuke was definitely contingent upon Sasuke not betraying the village. Missing nin, especially ones with THE most highly prized doujutsu: sharingan. Sasuke forfeit his right of protection when he betrayed his village (betrayed the village by becoming a missing nin for his own selfish reason).
When was that ever part of the agreement? The agreement, near as I can tell, was don't touch Sasuke or you will regret it. Did Danzo keep to this agreement? No. He was going to kill Sasuke anyway, damn whatever Itachi does. That makes Danzo the traitor of this agreement.
Originally posted by dadudemon
And, you're wrong on all your conclusions, at the end. He cares about the overall condition of his village. He knew that there would be casualties in the invasions...but knew that it would net it a better strategic position with him at the helm (long term intelligence). In fact, I think you missed the point of Danzo's character, entirely.
He cares about the village that can go **** itself if it means he can have power. Better position with him at the helm huh? Well, Tsunade did nothing wrong. Akatsuki was going to come for Naruto, regardless of who was in charge. Danzo on the other hand, if he were somehow able to protect his position(He wouldn't) would have brought the whole world against Konoha.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Danzo is a true ninja: using dishonorable tactics for an overall longer term victory. Everyone, including himself, were for the village. Each life was to be sacrificed for the long-term power and political standing of the fire nation.
By his own words, Danzo isn't even a true ninja. "Self sacrifice...that is what defines a ninja." It wasn't until he was already dying that Danzo did any sort of self sacrificing which doesn't count cause he was going to die anyway. Hiruzen gave his life for the entire village. Tsunade very nearly did the same. Minato gave his life, Itachi gave his life, even Pain himself gave his life just to save Konoha. Danzo is all talk, nothing more. He is not a true ninja.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Nope. He states quite clearly "But in telling you his secret, he has betrayed Konoha." For Danzo, it wasn't leaving Sasuke alive that was traitorous. It was telling him the secret. Which Itachi did not do. And Danzo, who should be smart enough to realize this consider Tobi had just said that he was there at the Uchiha Massacre, falsely accused an innocent man.
THE FIEND!
I can see why you hate him so much. Thats just mean.
Originally posted by NemeBro
You clearly have no idea what constitutes a "complete monster," my boy.Tobi, Kabuto, Orochimaru, Hidan (If he wasn't so funny), these are complete monsters.
Danzo is a Well-Intentioned Extremist, albeit with more emphasis on the "extremist" part. He manages to be human enough to not fall into Complete Monsterdom. Him genuinely caring about Konoha is enough to beat that rap.
Tobi only "thanked" the Akatsuki in a very indirect, pseudo-mocking way.
Well, considering what defines a complete monster, I can't say I agree. Danzo says he cares about Konoha, sure as hell doesn't show it. But to be completely fair, I guess some can be drawn in by it.
Originally posted by Nephthys
He didn't 'let' anything happen. He just didn't send Root out to fight Pain. Is that treason? Probably. I mean, I'm not saying he wasn't a villian but that doesn't make him 'teh worst villan evar'.
It does when one considers that he is supposed to be doing things for Konoha and considers self sacrifice to be number 1. His actions show he doesn't care about the lives of Konoha and he never partakes in the latter.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't think we've seen what Root is capable of actually. But by ninja I mean people who'll actually kill targets with no mercy, assassinate people and completely follow orders.Besides which Konoha already makes children fight battles and kill people. So its not like he's way over the top by their standards.
His strongest ninja were A class. Nothing special. Most the ninja in the series still kill their enemies so I don't see how this makes them any better.
Konha never makes them kill people they love, lets them stay with their families, and as far as I can tell, being a ninja is optional.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Fired, yes, but not go to jail or anything. I hardly see how that equals 'Worst person ever' levels. The point is that he believed that letting a few people die would be better than allowing Tsunade to continue to rule. Is that stupid and misguided? Yes. Is that evil? Yes. Is it the most evil thing ever? No ****ing way.
It is if said Teacher says he cares more about his students than anything else. Or at the very least, it makes him the biggest hypocrite in the manga.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Danzo would have ended the war by now.And there would be peace in our time!
grouchoawe
Nah. 😛
Originally posted by Nephthys
Well, by telling Sasuke about it he would have been a traitor. So I can see where you're coming from but all it does is make him slightly douchey, not impossibly evil.Of course, Tobi was the one who really told Sasuke about it so wahtever.
It actually makes him more of a hypocrite than slightly douchey.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Danzo didn't know anything about Sasukes intentions at that point. And again, Sasuke is a massive potential threat and all around complete ****ing lunatic.
Uh, yes he did? There was only one thing Sasuke continuously talked about: Killing Itachi. That isn't anything mysterious, he'll tell anyway. Anything beyond that, Sasuke doesn't care. And if Sasuke was what you would call a massive potential threat(he wasn't at the time) Itachi was certainly a far worse threat than him. If you hurt Sasuke, he will tell everyone every single one of your secrets. Itachi apparently made this very clear. So why did Danzo do it?
Originally posted by Nephthys
THE FIEND!I can see why you hate him so much. Thats just mean.
I know right? What a dick! D=
Edit: Also, you never did tell me why 2003 Ninja Turtles sucked. vin
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Well, considering what defines a complete monster, I can't say I agree. Danzo says he cares about Konoha, sure as hell doesn't show it. But to be completely fair, I guess some can be drawn in by it.
I don't need a link to the trope I probably look up more than any other and am most familiar with, honestly.
If you check the Naruto page, ironically, you'll notice it mentions that the fanbase has a habit of flanderizing him as a complete monster, when he's too complex to fit the trope. estahuh
Also, notice that the page states that a Well-Intentioned Extremist can't be a complete monster. 131
Danzo is a piece of work, and a villain, no one denies that. But a complete monster? Naw dude, dude naw. The sympathetic send-off Kishimoto gives him pretty much indicates UR WRAUNG.
And yeah, nowhere near as bad as Orochimaru, Tobi, or Kabuto.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
It does when one considers that he is supposed to be doing things for Konoha and considers self sacrifice to be number 1. His actions show he doesn't care about the lives of Konoha and he never partakes in the latter.
I never said he wasn't villianous, but you're completely overreacting to his actions, which don't even come close to comparing to that of the other, actual complete monsters the series has in spades.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
His strongest ninja were A class. Nothing special. Most the ninja in the series still kill their enemies so I don't see how this makes them any better.Konha never makes them kill people they love, lets them stay with their families, and as far as I can tell, being a ninja is optional.
Most of the ninjas also believe in crap like FREINDSHIP OVERCOMES ALL! KAWAII! and the shit Naruto talks about.
So in other words, they're not real ninjas.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
It is if said Teacher says he cares more about his students than anything else. Or at the very least, it makes him the biggest hypocrite in the manga.
Not really. If he wanted the two students to fight so they would become better at fighting so they could take care of themsleves better, that would imo eliminate all MONSTER status from him. Doubly so if the students are ninjas who will be fighting for their lives as their job.
Oh noes hypocrite?! WHAT A MONSTER!
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Nah. 😛
yah
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
It actually makes him more of a hypocrite than slightly douchey.
Well we all know being a hypocrite is the worst thing you could possibly be. COMPLETE MONSTER AHOY!
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Uh, yes he did? There was only one thing Sasuke continuously talked about: Killing Itachi. That isn't anything mysterious, he'll tell anyway. Anything beyond that, Sasuke doesn't care. And if Sasuke was what you would call a massive potential threat(he wasn't at the time) Itachi was certainly a far worse threat than him. If you hurt Sasuke, he will tell everyone every single one of your secrets. Itachi apparently made this very clear. So why did Danzo do it?
And he wanted to kill Itachi because? To avenge his family. And guess what happened when Sasuke learnt about Danzo's part in taht? Oh yeah, he declared ****ing war on Konoha! Danzo going after Sasuke showed a great amount of foresight intojust how much of a threat Sasuke constituted. Now you can say he was dumb to go after him because of what Itachi might do about it (though Itachi was dying at that point remember?), but to call him the most repulsive villian ever because of it? C'mon, he had good reasons to go after Sasuke, and him doing so is hardly that evil compared to Mr. Blow Up Konoha, Mr. Live Human Experiments or Mr. My Religion Is Killing People.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
I know right? What a dick! D=Edit: Also, you never did tell me why 2003 Ninja Turtles sucked. vin
Yeah! Quick, we need Naruto to give him a Friendship Speech stat!
Do I need reasons? It just wasn't very good. I'd hardly call it a successful reboot. Not on the level of the Nolan-verse for Batman or anything at least.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Well, who will beat Madara and who will beat Kabuto? It might be the same person but I'm doubting it.
Itachi will arrive and beat Kabuto. This will get rid of all the zombies.
Really this is the only way Madara isn't going to just walk through the Shinobi at this point, barring some other dues ex machina.