The Official Naruto series Thread

Originally posted by Q99
Well, it is sorta continuing off of the longer mystery of Tobi's identity and general treatment of the Biju.

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Btw, I'm getting the impression that there's three times of jinchuuriki-

First, the weak at heart, like Bee's cousin and young Gaara. Those who can't defeat their own hatred and are eventually consumed/lose control. They may be strong warriors, but they're also timebombs.

Second, the strong. Those who are able to control their own hatred and thus keep the biju contained. Post-Naruto Gaara, Mito, and Kushina all being examples. Pretty much what most villages hope for, some of the recent jinchuuriki may have been this.

Third, the friends. Those who try and succeed in beating their biju's hatred as well. Killerbee, and Naruto being on the track.

The whole "beast name" plot point was a bit lame.

Kishimoto's brain storming for this:

"Okay...I will now make part of the warriors' powers about their weapons. Knowing their names will make them stronger because it signifies a relationship of trust between the two."

Kubo:

"OBJECTION! I already did that with Zanpakutos, ass!"

Kishimoto:

"**** off, b*tch. I even named one of my "named" spirits after the most famous Dragonball character: Son Goku. So it is not as though I am keeping any secrets on stealing ideas from other mangas."

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Eh, I don't really see it like that. Maybe if names hadn't already been given some importance I'd agree. But we have Jiraiya naming Naruto being the bond that makes Jiraiya his god father, Madara's name being what is essentially the name of a demon to the shinobi world, and Tobi keeping his name a secret along with everything else. That's not even getting started on the last name business one gets with the Uchiha and Senju. I'd argue that names have really always been important, just one of the more subtle themes.

Excellent points, good sir!

That part about what makes a "Senju" is part of it. It seems that people, not even part o the Senju Clan, are adopted into it with a label of "Senju Fire". Naruto and Sarutobi come to mind. It is a mindset rather than blood itself. Same with Madara's name...but not as much.

During that flashback with Hashirama, he looked quite stuffed up. Madara must've really punched the daylights out of him.

The Zanpakuto of Bleach and the Bijuu of Naruto are quite a bit different from one another actually. And I believe the Bijuu names are merely homages/references to other manga, rather than ripping off. Kurama is stated to be direct inspiration for the Kyuubi and anyone with two brain cells would know that DB heavily affected Kishi as a kid.

Makes me wonder about the other names. I hope they're all references personally.

Edit: Seems Son is a reference to Journey to the West and Dragon Ball. Neato.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
The Zanpakuto of Bleach and the Bijuu of Naruto are quite a bit different from one another actually.*

You don't say? dur

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
And I believe the Bijuu names are merely homages/references to other manga, rather than ripping off.

You don't say again? dur

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Kurama is stated to be direct inspiration for the Kyuubi and anyone with two brain cells would know that DB heavily affected Kishi as a kid.

You don't say yet another again? dur

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
I hope they're all references personally.

Nah.

*Which is why I worded what I said in a very specific way. Go back and read it again. 🙂

Indeed. You called the Bijuu spirits. This is false. Zanpakuto are born with Shinigami apparently and exist to help them fight. The closer they are the better. Bijuu are more or less very sapient beings who get their power taken from them by force more than anything else. Them having names makes far more sense than giving Zanpakuto, which really are just spirit weapons, names.

true that. biju sure are different from zanpakutos.

and I'm pretty sure that the name of the ape biju is actually a reference to some old japanese god and not Goku from DBZ. though, I could have heard wrong from some history guys I know.

Dunno about a god. But it came from Journey to the West, something Naruto has taken a lot of influence from. And is also probably inspired a lot from DB. Son here seems to be more Ape like than Monkey, lending credit to the DB reference.

Son Goku is the protagonist of Journey to the West, a Chinese (I think) epic starring a demigod monkey boy.

It is Chinese ****er.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Indeed. You called the Bijuu spirits. This is false.

No it's not. 🙂

The Biju are chakra monsters.

Chakra is at times, synonymous with "spirit" in Naruto. Example: Minato put some of his and Kushina's chakra into Naruto. It turns out that it was basically a horcrux for "part" of their spirit. Chakra is part of the "subtle body" pie. Your "subtle body" is basically your spirit. Somehow, the sage mastered the manipulation of the "subtle body" to the point of making it a complete subtle body unto itself and granted it sapience.

The original biju was a giant chakra monster. It was split up into 9 chakra monsters to make it more manageable. They are demons...made of chakra and given sapience by the sage via his Izanagi.

By the way, I will no argue this point any further. It is far too obvious that I am right and it is not necessary to argue my point for me to be magically more correct than I already am. I knew someone like you (I suspected it would be Q99, first, though) would ignorantly argue against the Zanpakuto comparison which I why I chose my words like a mother ****in' lawyer [csm]313[/csm.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Zanpakuto are born with Shinigami apparently and exist to help them fight.

Behold:

"Biju are implanted into Ninjas and exist to help them fight."

That's the mentality of the Ninjas minus B and Naruto. Amazing how you're just supporting my point, isn't it?

Your statement should be redone to make more sense for both Shinigami and Ninja:

"Biju/Zanpakuto are implanted/born into Ninjas/shinigami and are their weapons."

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
The closer they are the better.

Lemme rephrase what you stated withOUT the ambiguous pronoun reference:

"The closer the Jinchurki and Biju are the better."

And now let me rephrase that exact statement:

"The closer the Zanpakuto and Shinigami are the better."

So, yet again, you are showing me the similarities, not the differences.

While I do appreciate your help in proving my point, it is not necessary to prove the obvious.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Bijuu are more or less very sapient beings who get their power taken from them by force more than anything else. Them having names makes far more sense than giving Zanpakuto, which really are just spirit weapons, names.

Here are what Biju actually are:

"Biju are imlanted into their Jinchuriki and they die along with their Jinchuriki [but will be reborn a few years later]. A Biju's shape is unique. Once a Jinchuriki learns his/her Biju's name, they are able to communicate with one another and grow stronger together. [If mastered]. a Jinchurki can use them in battle as a reflection of their heart. When released, they can display a vibrant power. "

That's a paraphrase of the following paragraph right on the Bleach wiki:

"A Zanpakuto's shape and abilities are based on their Shinigami's soul. Once a Shinigami learns his/her sword's name, they are able to communicate with one another and grow stronger together. Zanpakuto; are born with their Shinigami and they die along with their Shinigami. Shinigami use them in battle as a reflection of their heart. When released, they can display a vibrant power. They are one with the Shinigami, and they share a Shinigami's conviction."

Notice how whole portions of it were kept the same except the name labels? 😆 😆 😆

💃 💃 💃

Now, lemme rephrase what YOU actually said to show you why you've spent a long time only proving my point:

"Zanpakuto are more or less very sapient beings who get their power taken from them by force more than anything else (see Kenpachi for a very good example...or Ichigo up until he discovered his Zanpakuto's soul's name). Them having names makes far more sense than giving Biju, which really are just spirit weapons, names."

Keep in mind that if you want to pretend that arguing word semantics about "spirit" even remotely detracts from my point, be my guest. Just change out "spirit" for "energy weapons" and suck on it harder.

"Biju/Zanpakuto are implanted/born into Ninjas/shinigami and are their weapons."

The difference between an external, fully independent life form being implanted, and a non-independent intelligence developing from someone's powers strikes me as a big difference.

Also, just knowing the name doesn't help at all with the Biju. It's purely the personal relationship, and type of binding, that matters.

Wonder if Bee knows the Hachibi's name considering he never calls it by anything else.

Reading over this chapter I noticed that Hashirama was just a much of an ass to the Kyuubi as Madara; the only difference is that he has the excuse of self-defense.

I wonder if anyone will read dadudemon's post.

Probably not.

You guess correctly.

I read it but just really didn't find anything to reply to is all 😐

Originally posted by Q99
The difference between an external, fully independent life form being implanted, and a non-independent intelligence developing from someone's powers strikes me as a big difference.

I don't think pretending that there's a big difference actually makes it a big difference. "One is born without their spiritual weapon and the other is born with it." Is that really a huge deal to you?

Oh...and...both "universes" have characters that try to become friends with those very same weapons.

Lastly, you're making a big deal out of a...

1. Fully sapient, powerful creature called a zanpakuto being trapped inside of a shinigami's innerworld

being massively different than a

2. Fully sapient, powerful creature called a Biju trapped inside of a Ninja's innerworld.

Huge difference, man. HUGE!

Originally posted by Q99
Also, just knowing the name doesn't help at all with the Biju.

It does, actually. You'd have to have an understanding of Japanese honorifics to understand that. I don't know how much you know about the Japanese culture and language, though. Were you aware of the depth and/or the social implications of getting to call someone by their name? It's a huge deal, actually. If you ever do business there, don't ever call the people you do business with by their first name....trust me.

Did you read the latest chapter? Calling the biju by their name is a major step in respecting the Biju. It is treating them less like tools and more like a person (granting them personhood). If you read the last chapter, you would know that. I did not ruin the chapter, though: read it and you'll see what I'm talking about.

Originally posted by Q99
It's purely the personal relationship, and type of binding, that matters.

Man...at this point, I don't know if you're talking about Zany's or Bijus. And, yes, I'm serious. The concepts are so much alike now that I am having a hard time telling them apart. 😆

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
I read it but just really didn't find anything to reply to is all 😐

This dude knows what's up. 😐

ddm, We've known about the tailed beast for a while now; so why is this the first time you're saying ninja/biju is a ripoff of the dynamics between shinigami/zanpakuto?

That could always be countered with the argument that Naruto came first, meaning if any ripping off took place it would be Bleach doing it.

Not that there was mind you.

Originally posted by marwash22
ddm, We've known about the tailed beast for a while now; so why is this the first time you're saying ninja/biju is a ripoff of the dynamics between shinigami/zanpakuto?

Because the extremely specific similarity of "knowing their name" didn't come into play until this last chapter (we already knew the 1 tails real name and it wasn't a problem then. So now we have...what? Two stupid plot elements instead of the one I proposed?)

I'm fine with weapons "being" alive. The Japanese have thought that for ages. It's the knowing of their "name" to "sync up" and become a more powerful duo that's the rip-off.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
That could always be countered with the argument that Naruto came first, meaning if any ripping off took place it would be Bleach doing it.

Not that there was mind you.

It couldn't: see above. Additionally, when was the concept of a jinchuriki even introduced? (The subjugation of a "chakra beast" to be used in a ninja as a powerful weapon)