The Official Naruto series Thread

Originally posted by NemeBro
How does Temari pressing the offense and only stopping to avoid attacks prove your point?

If she had used common sense and even the most basic of tactics while fighting him, she would have won. Ergo, the fight speaks more of Temari's incompetence than it speaks of Shikamaru's genius.

Now, if you're wondering how this ties into the overarching topic of discussion, which you're probably not, as you've probably forgotten:

Originally posted by NemeBro
Shikamaru has proven to be able to consistently take on powerful ninja using what he has, including beating your beloved Temari (He forfeited, but only because he acknowledged that he did not have the stamina to fight further in the examination).

Every character he has ever beaten he has done so with prep.

If Temari and Tayuya had simply gone over to where he was hiding, or attacked from a different angle, instead of sitting around waiting for him to come up with a plan, he would have been killed.

Eh having read through the fight, the worst that can be said for Temari was that she fought too defensively. She pressed the attack and when Shikamaru did his weird hand seal thing, she hesitated. Not wise to attack when you're not sure what the opponent is doing.

But she did focus more on running than attack, because she was more concerned with avoiding his attack than actually hurting him enough. By the time she came up with a real solid attack, she'd already given him enough time to win. So all in all, Blax is sorta right/wrong. She wasn't being stupid so much as she was being a wimp. awesome

Indeed.

Which is stupid, because it'd already been shown that she was fast enough to easily dodge the shadow when she could see it coming. Her attack and her movements were faster than his. I don't understand why she hesitated.

Well she dodged it by jumping into the safest area, behind her. She could have risked getting closer to Shikamaru but that gives the shadow an easier time of snatching her. What she should have done was use some sorta projectile. Too bad ninja don't have those.

What she should have done was move 30 feet to the left or right and attack from there. Same distance away from the kage mane's limit, but she also has direct LoS to Shikamaru, as the tree itself is only a foot or two wide.

Either Shikamaru would got KO'd or he would have to get up and move to avoid being hit. That's all it would taken, really. If Shikamaru's too busy running for his life, he'll never have the chance to go into his "meditative" stance and think of a plan.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
Indeed.

Which is stupid, because it'd already been shown that she was fast enough to easily dodge the shadow when she could see it coming. Her attack and her movements were faster than his. I don't understand why she hesitated.

It's simple really. Kishi hates females. Hence why any competent female that Kishi accidentaly makes is downplayed such as our dear Temari.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
Because the scans show that while she did press the attack, she did it poorly, and that is the reason why she lost. < < < My point.

Subjective.

If she had used common sense and even the most basic of tactics while fighting him, she would have won. Ergo, the fight speaks more of Temari's incompetence than it speaks of Shikamaru's genius.

Pointless blubbering and speculation.

Now, if you're wondering how this ties into the overarching topic of discussion, which you're probably not, as you've probably forgotten:

I forget nothing.

The only truly notable mistake she made was that she didn't attack him for the few seconds where Shikamaru went into his meditative trance. That's it.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Subjective.

I forget nothing.

The only truly notable mistake she made was that she didn't attack him for the few seconds where Shikamaru went into his meditative trance. That's it.

It's okay though. I accept your concession.

It's odd looking from the outside in on long winded debates.

The premise is simple:

Nemebro is a masochist who likes to argue Temari-related things with me because he knows he'll get a logic asspounding.

Being the eternally loyal friend that I am, I never fail to indulge Nemebro's desires for having his ass pounded.

But strangely enough, just as we begin to reach our respective climaxes, he crawls away from the asspounding, under some cop-out pretense like his computer eating his reply post, or my entire post being "subjective".

And so now I sit here with blue balls, scratching my head and wondering why he has forsaken his asspounding. 🙁

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
The comment was that if Tobi had tried to use the body flicker technique(I guess this is the one referred to) the bugs would have known the direction he moved it and not moved. How they would have known is not explained.

Eh making a strategy probably. But I think she is smart enough to see through some of the strategies he makes.

Reacting to his chakra.

Shino is the type to make plans within plans. So while she is certainly smart enough to see through a couple of his gambits, I don't think she'll see through his entire plan.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
Cop-out.

Cop-out.

Spoken by someone who doesn't know anything about tactics, this line of thought isn't surprising.

It's okay though. I accept your concession.

Uhuh.

You're under the impression that moving laterally to the left or right and attacking would have made a signifigant difference in their fight. It wouldn't, Shikamaru had an ideal hiding spot, surrounding by trees from multiple angles which provided decent protection against large-scale AOE, aka, all Temari does. Shikamaru may have gotten a few scrapes and bruises, but that is no different than what actually happened. Now, your proposed tactic could theoretically work if Temari were to do this and use a shuriken, or even multiple ones, but Temari for some reason never uses them.

Another theoretically viable tactic is to destroy the branches and leaves of the tree, which would make Shikamaru less obscured, and perhaps make him open to an attack from above, although this method is much more risky because the cutting power of Terumi's gusts might not be enough to do so quickly, which could lead her open.

I would say the first proposed tactic is the more viable one, but Temari didn't do it.

You can whine about "Bawh CIS", but fact of the matter is that what she tried didn't let her win, and it is not like it would be "obvious" in a short fight like that what would have to be done to definitely win, this isn't some egregrious case of CIS like Flash forgetting he has superspeed, or Yamamoto masturbating while his Captains were getting beaten up. Temari tried to beat Shikamaru fairly intelligently, but lost.

So shut your mouth, speck.

Originally posted by NemeBro
[B]Uhuh.

You're under the impression that moving laterally to the left or right and attacking would have made a signifigant difference in their fight. It wouldn't, Shikamaru had an ideal hiding spot, surrounding by trees from multiple angles which provided decent protection against large-scale AOE, aka, all Temari does. Shikamaru may have gotten a few scrapes and bruises, but that is no different than what actually happened. Now, your proposed tactic could theoretically work if Temari were to do this and use a shuriken, or even multiple ones, but Temari for some reason never uses them.

Another theoretically viable tactic is to destroy the branches and leaves of the tree, which would make Shikamaru less obscured, and perhaps make him open to an attack from above, although this method is much more risky because the cutting power of Terumi's gusts might not be enough to do so quickly, which could lead her open.

I would say the first proposed tactic is the more viable one, but Temari didn't do it

It wouldn't, Shikamaru had an ideal hiding spot, surrounding by trees from multiple angles which provided decent protection against large-scale AOE, aka, all Temari does.

You must be blind. Two or three trees scattered across a wide landscape = protection from all angles? Nah, son.

Really blind. <- Last panel.

Even an attack made directly against the tree he was hiding behind wrapped around the tree like water and he was partially affected.

And yet attacking from an angle where his body is exposed won't do anything? Really? haermm

No. If she had attacked from a different angle, he would have been forced to move or lose, and that would have served the intended purpose, to prevent him from focusing on an elaborate scheme.

You can whine about "Bawh CIS", but fact of the matter is that what she tried didn't let her win,

and it is not like it would be "obvious" in a short fight like that what would have to be done to definitely win,

this isn't some egregrious case of CIS like Flash forgetting he has superspeed, or Yamamoto masturbating while his Captains were getting beaten up. Temari tried to beat Shikamaru fairly intelligently, but lost.

Because the scans show that while she did press the attack, she did it poorly, and that is the reason why she lost.

It's awesome how you're just repeating me now.

Furthermore, you're ignoring that this is part of a larger topic: Shikamaru sucks when he has to fight on the fly. This is why HOW he beat Temari is important. She lost because she fought badly, not because he fought impressively. And that's a trend that repeats itself throughout the series. Shikamaru never wins unless he has breathing space to think up a plan.

So shut your mouth, speck.

Originally posted by dadudemon
It's odd looking from the outside in on long winded debates.

Originally posted by marwash22
you're still the king of tl;dr.

And I don't even have asperger's.

group

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Reacting to his chakra.

Shino is the type to make plans within plans. So while she is certainly smart enough to see through a couple of his gambits, I don't think she'll see through his entire plan.

Well I suppose the flicker technique might leave a trail of chakra...meh. Not really what Sakura would use anything.

Yep. I just don't see his plans ultimately succeeding. 😛

Oh and by the way, the best tl;dr guy was Killermover. DDM cheats because he breaks up quotes by the letters. >_>

Originally posted by NemeBro
Reading your entire post left a bad taste in my mouth, and I don't know why you are so obsessed with Sasuke, but I will answer this.

Originally posted by killermover
Because, he's the reason Naruto is a mediorce manga and everyone and their mothers wants him to get owned by Naruto. Because Kishimoto jumped the shark and decided to make Naruto more stuish as Sasuke is more popular than him and hates that.

I hate Taka Sasuke. I seriously consider him one of the worst characters or the manga among the characters who still matter. Ino or Sai are probably worse. But they hardly matter anymore. On the other hand Sasuke is very central character.

I won't even adress the fact he spams MS and fights like a retard.

Until Hebi Sasuke he was still my favourite character.

We can agree or disagree many things about Sasuke except his relevance as character. He had his own backstory built in terms of character relationships and themes that weren't related at all with the main character.

Sasuke was designed as rival of Naruto. But at the same time he was his own character with his own theme or motive: revenge.

Revenge constitutes everything that drives this character. We can agree or disagree if this theme was cliche or if Sasuke methods were justified or not. In fact many of the great debates in this forum born from that notion. Kishimoto always allowed room for that discussion. Regardless what you feel about the theme of revenge or if you dislike or like Sasuke we can all agree if something it's cliche it still could OR SHOULD be well developed.

One Piece, Kenichi and other shounen follow many cliches formulas but they give their own flavour and remain consistent.

So here I will adress my first reason I dislike Taka Sasuke.

1-What was crucial to Sasuke's character was the dichotomy between his goal and his method.

Kishimoto never said Sasuke's revenge per se was wrong. He never questioned the moral ground of Sasuke for wanting revenge. He questioned the methods and consecuences. That's why Kakashi said "stop your revenge... it will make you feel empty at the end". He isn't saying Sasuke wasn't justified... but at the end it won't bring him happiness.

This allow certain readers, fans, etc to make a connection with the character for good or bad. We know this kid suffered a great loss.

It's the weigh of that loss enough to justify any method?.

That was a question every reader had to answer. Our reaction towards the character would be a consecuence to that answer.

Taka Sasuke doesn't even leave space for that question. Kishimoto turned him into the Avatar of Hatred in order to justify his next fight against Naruto. Kishimoto destroyed all moral ambiguity in the character that set him apart from a villian and practically turned his goal and his method into something so childishly evil that doesn't left room for debate anymore. Before his fight with Itachi Sasuke was basically character-driven. He acted for good or wrong in terms or his convictions. That's why Sasuke could be ready to kill Naruto and at the same time try to save Oro's prisioners without any gain. That's why we could get different kind of reactions from him instead HATREEEEED like he was Nemesis from Resident Evil 3.

Kishimoto himself took a bit of time to react to the changes. For example making Taka Sasuke pulling an Amaterasu of friendship to save Team Taka AFTER ITACHI'S REVELATION. Yet in the next arc that involved him he was impaling Karin and laughing about it. What kind of character development is that?. It's not so much about Sasuke turning totally evil really... but it was so bad developed that is pathetic. If that was intention all along Kishimoto should spare us from comments like "I won't follow Itachi footsteps" and should focus from the beginning of Part 2 into following Sasuke slow descend to the darkness.

Instead of that what we get?.

Madara: Some random 3 elders ordered your brother kill your family. By the way... I took part in that too... but you shouldn't care too much.

Sasuke: HATREEEEED.... I'm the avatar of the elder son..... I'm gonna rape Team Taka even if that wasn't my style 30 chapters ago.

Hebi Sasuke hardly wanted to kill someone for pleasure before. Itachi was a duty. He tried to kill Team 7 only because he felt they get in the path of his revenge and to cut his bonds. But he never went on purpose trying to kill someone who wasn't directly implied in his revenge. We have the example of the 1000 fodders he defeated training with Oro, sparing Oro's experiments, saving Taka members, avoiding to kill Deidara, etc. Now Kishi pulls this shit he want "everyone felt his hatred... and turn his laughs into screams and crap" He completely changed his mentality.

Taka Sasuke was ready to spare DEIDARA who is more related to the evil Itachi represented by virtue to been partners in the Akatsuki... yet right now he wants to kill little girls, old men, women, etc that hardly were related with what Danzo and the other 2 elders did just for the lulz?.

Which brings me to the second point....

2-The target of his revenge.

We all agree that a good revenge story should have a memorable target.

This what pre-retcon Itachi represented.

1-The brother of the victim
2-Betrayed his trust
3-Appeared as an super powerful and invincible villian (at last in Part 1... I'm just talking the way he was introduced).

All this elements constitute a good drama. While I didn't like Itachi turning into a "dood guy" this development could have been better if was introduced at the end of the manga instead killing him in the middle leaving an empty Sasuke who was turned into a plot driven character to hype Naruto.

I don't like Itachi. But I admit among all characters there isn't one with the potential to enhance Sasuke's theme.

Itachi always should have been Sasuke's final boss. Killing him so soon was a mistake in my opinion.

Seriously who is Sasuke's target right now?. 3 random elders that hardly were developed during the series and Konoha villagers.

One of the main questions of the series was if Sasuke would be able to fulfill his revenge. Now this question was destroyed. What is his target seriously?. He already killed Danzo who was the main instigator against Uchiha. What this mean?. He completed 16% of his revenge or something?. There is no sense of completition anymore. Regardless if Itachi was good or not this answer and his fight should introduced at the end to close Sasuke's story.

There isn't so much drama between random elders and villagers compared to Itachi who was directly related to Sasuke, shared a backstory, a bond, etc... "Oh I'm gonna kill fodder number 392...." who ****ing cares?.

The only way to fix this a little would be if Itachi never killed the Uchiha at all and all was done by Madara instead just "helping him"... and even then it isn't a comparable bond. Besides Madara was already hyped as Naruto's final villian.

Maybe if Namikaze or Uzumaki clan were directly related to Uchiha's massacre.... nah... nothing with fix this crap anymore....

At this point I'm just interested in how everything will end and if Madara will provide more lulz trolling everyone. Sasuke has turned into a horrible character... not just for his haters... but for everyone who doesn't keep deluding himself. Probably it's consecuence of the whole manga going down into the toilet (Naruto turning into a messiah for example or secondary characters turned into Gato's samurais in terms of relevance) but at last I was hoping if Kishimoto would sacrifice the whole manga to develop a theme he would put more effort. Otherwise bring Ino and made her kage level.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Well I suppose the flicker technique might leave a trail of chakra...meh. Not really what Sakura would use anything.

Yep. I just don't see his plans ultimately succeeding. 😛

Oh and by the way, the best tl;dr guy was Killermover. DDM cheats because he breaks up quotes by the letters. >_>

That, or they, you know, track his chakra which moves when he moves.

Nah, Sakura would still fall prey to them. 😛

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
The comment was that if Tobi had tried to use the body flicker technique(I guess this is the one referred to) the bugs would have known the direction he moved it and not moved. How they would have known is not explained.

Chakra detection? How would they know otherwise? 131

Chapter is out. Go check a site.

Spoiler:
Suigetsu and Jugo find one of Oro's hideouts, each commenting on how crazy the other is. Jugo goes nuts for a second, hits Suigetsu(being water it doesn't hurt him) and hits a wall to a secret room. Suigetsu goes into the room and sees a scroll, with information that can control the war, and says Sasuke would like the scroll for a present.

Some Zetsu pop up and Sasuke uses Susano'o to kill them. He interrogates one about wtf is going on and discovers the war. He says he'll go to where Naruto is so they can have a final fight(and something about a promise concerning Konoha shinobi). However, the last portion of the chapter teases the possibility of a meeting between Sasuke and Itachi.

Pretty light chapter. Geesh, Ibiki, you need to slap your people.

Interesting on what Suigetsu found.