USH'S MATRIX GAME FOURTH ASSIGNMENT (PHILOSOPHY PATH)- 'The Journey'

"I would say a choice is made, and can be declared valid or invalid, from the moment the thought arises in the person. To change your mind is another choice, of course.

"But if you think your decision to leave the Matrix was valid, what do you think it is that makes that valid where so many others you believe are not? You agree that falling in love, or making friuends, that these things are valid because they involve components that are not false, even inside the Matrix. Do you have a similar approach for your decision to leave?"

"Our choice to leave the matrix was a search for not only truth but freedom. A definition is the same in and outside the matrix yes? In order for it to function properly the matrx must imitate certain things and changing the definition of a word would not go overwell with inmates. Esspecially one so important as freedom.

It seems the most important things in life are the same in and out of the matrix, and are not comprimised by the matrix. I would assume the same for freedom. As long as people are given a choice they feel free, or as if they are in control. Even if they are unaware of this choice. The choice is to be free or not to be free. Free is a word that means the same in the amtrix as it does outside so the decision cannot be deemed false because the information it is based on is not false. The decision is based on the definition.

Saying that, once made aware or our choice to be free or not we were able to chose. Our choice was valid because it was based on valid information...."

Melitus will refer you to what he said you guys like to say earlier' "No-one can be TOLD what the Matrix is...'

The point is that until AFTER you leave the Matrix you are part of a deceptrive system and from your point of view, your rescuers are no different. Yes, they were indeed offering you freedom but that makes no difference- your entire experience, motivations, and decisions that led to that moment were all based on falsehoods. We have already established that getting something right by accident does not validate the choice...

So even if you chose freedom, you were part of a deception that made your decision invalid. You got it- lucky for you! But from the logic you were working with, you may as well have ended up with a fish. Or for that matter, have gone out to get a fish, and ended up getting freedom! No matter what, the choice- and most certainly your reasons for making it- was based on false information.

"A man is the sum of his choices," says Melitus. "You all disavow your false lives of sleep in the Matrix- the invalid life of a slave. So how can I believe that your decision to leave was any more valid than any other decision you made in the Matrix?"

I do agree that the matrix environment renders the decisions in it invaldid, but the decision about leaving was valid. I ,too, don't know what makes that one valid.

"Maybe you can tell me why you think you made that choice, Rade?" asks Melitus.

(deppends....did Rade have that feeling of 'something's not right' that neo had before extraction?)

Originally posted by Ushgarak
"A man is the sum of his choices," says Melitus. "You all disavow your false lives of sleep in the Matrix- the invalid life of a slave.

All? Sorry, just checking...

(Just aksing ush, but do you know why our decision was valid...just aksing...like do you know the "right" answer?)

"What lead us to that point in our lives to make that decision was false...So, how could the decision have been valid. Something about the decision or the components leading to it is not as simple as we seem to be making it. Perhaps writing them off as simply valid or invalid is wrong? Perhaps all the decision that led to that state are not false...perhaps some are. How can we be sure which ones had the most effect on our freedom. And thus whether or not our decision was valid?"

When he says 'all' he means that is the prevalent human view, Azrael. I must say I would be surprised if a rebel does not disavow that life- it is why you do not use your 'real' names.

I dunno, Rade, did you?

'Right' is relative but to answer your question in the spirit you want, Castor, then I do know of several consistent views to take on this matter that work just fine in reconciling these apparent contradictions.

There are also several consistent views which perfectly happily accept that the decision to leave was not valid! I just doubt you and Rade hold them and I don't want to see you unhappy!

"These are questions that you can spend a lot of time thinking about," says Melitus. "Sadly I cannot supply your own answers for you, only what my opinion is, which I shall keep to myself."

"I've come to the conclusion that all decisions made in the matrix cannot be false. I am sure some of them are, but all of them can not be. If they were all being manipulated by a decietful machine empire then how would we have been allowed to escape in the first place.

It was meant to be I think, we as people do only what we are meant to do after all."

"Are you saying the decision is valid because it was your destiny?" asks Melitus.

"I think that is what I am saying.."

I don't really remember me saying that friendships is false
I think or atleast ment to say that it could be false, if a friendship is based on the wrong facts, then it will be a false friendship. This does not mean that both ppl are enemies, they might very well believe that they are friends. Taking Loyalty and Gratitude into account: I can be loyal and grateful to ppl who I do not consider to be my friends.

but if this leads to far I'll change that answer.

M: "So, love in the Matrix is real? It is not a lie?"
F: "Love is a lie, in here and in the real world"
M: "So, Friendship in the Matrix is real? It is not a lie?"
F: "Friendship is also a lie, it is based on inaccurate data can be nomore than a calculated guess, tho chances are that you will guess right more often in the real world than in the matrix"

as I said in my previous post, I didn't say it is always a lie (remember Fire doesn't believe in anything being certain) if it is based on false or incorrect data than it is false/a lie. if the data is true and correct that it is real. In the real world chances are bigger that the data will be correct.

however if you feel this is just too easy an answer (I could understand that-tho it wasn't my intention) than I will change his views.

as said in my post above, I can (IRL and IC) be completely loyal to someone who I do not consider a friend.

yes, say he did have that feeling.

"why did i make that choice?
I wanted to see if there really is something beyond where i was. I guess there's no rational explanation and it all comes down to pointless curiosity in the end. I accepted the risk.."

I think 'friendship is also a lie' pretty much gave me the impression that you did not think it exists, Fire. You didn't say it was sometimes a lie, you simply called it false! And simply rejecting all such concepts as unprovable makes it very hard to meaningfully engage.

Melitus will accept that answer from Castor, and Rade's answer probably works better than before...

okie so you want me to change that answer?

Cool now we we wont have that weird inconsistency now...cool

I won't force anyone to do anything, Fire, but it is very hard to pin down your opinion on matters when much of the subject matter is rejected as unprovable.

Yup, you look much better now, Castor- assuming you really do believe in destiny!

If all the issues are handled, then I'd like to know meltius' next question.