Originally posted by Never
Dark Phoenix or Rachel Summers with the Phoenix Force would be considered the most powerful, I do believe.And...NO single JLA member could defeat either.
Why is Dark Phoenix so powerful? The Phoenix Force multiplies its host's abilities infinitely. Dark Phoenix consumed **suns** to sate her appetite. Xavier engaged her in a telepathic battle of wills. She smirked. Can incinerate an entire world with a shrug. Galactus sent a herald (Terrax) to battle Dark Phoenix. She put her hand on his head and transformed him back into a human, snuffing out all of his powers. Hell, someone said it better in a Rachel vs. the entire JLA thread:
"Experience and toughness, what are you talking about, she has been fighting for years, was raised in an environment that makes a warzone look like a petting zoo, has fought many cosmic entities ranging from the Beyonder to Galactus. She outclasses everyone (Supes included) in experience. Not a single one of them have been the embodiment of life incarnate or torn apart solar systems (her battle w/ the anti phoenix), traversed the timestream at will, started entire religions, led freedom rebellions, comes from a different universe... There is not a person alive w/ more experience than rachel. She has thousands of years of experience. Also if she could kill the beyonder, take down Galactus or what have you then she can take the JLA by herself. >>>The Phoenix power has been described as second only to the creator itself<<< whereas Spectre can be taken out by Michael. Again you do the math."
JLA who?
Dark Phoenix or Rachel. Pick your poison JLA, and still get owned.
Eidolon, you are incorrect regarding Flash. If you have the issue (one of many examples), read JLA #2 (Grant Morrison's run) where The Flash battles a martian with his very same powers. He does not hurt his fist or himself - the Speed Force protects him.
Wow. Impressive, I didn't realise this Phoenix thing was so powerful. I always thought that Phoenix was Jean Grey though, who is Rachel? Why did this thing, Phoenix become Jean Grey/Rachel?
Anyway. I guess this debates over then, excluding Phoenix is a much better matchup, but not doing so, X-Men win hands down.
The Phoenix Force, remember, is an entity. Also "chose" Rachel as a host.
Rachel was a hunter from the..."Days of Future Past" storyline, I think? Woo, this goes back to X-Men 180ish or so? Do not quote me on that, will dig out the issue and clear it up later this evening.
Why did Phoenix become Jean Grey...I recall it taking over her body when she tried to land an aircraft. Why...? Good question 🙁
Franklin Richards is the most powerful mutant alive. After the Worlds heroes died fighting Onslaught, Franklin created an entirely new Earth on the other side of the Sun, with about 5 billion people on it subconciously. Even the Celestials were concered about him. But I don't think he was a X-Man, he traveled along with Arty and Leech who were living in the mansion but I don't he joined due to the fact we was about 5 or 6 years old.
Oh, I think If MAGNETO can kill Phoenix (New X-men 150), Superman Pre-Crisis could Certanily kill her...
Dark Phoenix was NEVER part of the X-men, she was an enemy....
Phoenix is just a cop-out, its a good thing she's been WEAKENED.
Do you think Jean would really let her self go, I mean, she wouldn't even do that against Onslaught.
Ion,Paralllax,Spectre,Pre Crisis Prime Superman, Barry Allen, Wally West, Aquaman, Martian Manhunter (who has everything Supes has with telepathy almost as good as Prof. X) Batman. All those heroes, Parallax (Hal Jordan) Ion (Kyle) Spectre (Hal) together could quite possibly take the X-men by themselves, as they all have power to take out most of the universe.
Spectre is the Lords wrath of Vengeance, its almost IMPOSSIBLE for him to lose a fight!
Parallax is the combined might of the One Latern, all the other Lanterns, and the Oa guardians...
Ion is the same as ^
Primed Superman (pre crisis) shook galaxies, even was regarded as COSMIC.
Wally West outran death to the end of time where DEATH HAS NO MEANING!
In kindom come Wally was so fast he couldn't stay in 1 dimension
When did Phoenix take down Galactus, that is pure bull crap. Phoenix isn't even that high of a Cosmic even, hell Captain Marvel is higher (Genis)!
Spectre,Ion,Parallax,Primed Supes, Wally West.........
X-men pick your poison.
I know Flash doesn't hurt him self when he punches or hits people at super speed, I just want to know why, cause if there is no super power explantion I think it just plain stupid (same goes for other super fast characters) I've never heard of him having a protective shield or anything, and he isn't super strong.
Barry Allen:
1. When reduced to his component atoms - his control via his powers to control EVERY ATOM in his body allowed him to reintergrate in time to save the day.Thats one of the cool things about the Flash, he has the potential to be one of the most dangerous beings out there, because of the amazing amount of ability's he has. I mean, just with a simple thing like a steel pipe, he could throw it at you near light speed or faster. I dont care who you are, your not going to evade that or come away unhurt from it. Or he could beat you hundreds of times a second with it. Even just with his fists, he could punch you hundreds of times a second, hell, probably thousands of times. I remember an old Flash comic (Barry Allen) where he punched his evil counterpart so hard he ended up like a thousand something years into the future.
2. When on an alien world with his only way off a transporter beam which had sweeped past his point of departure moments before he arrived, He quickly scooped up a handful of sand and tossed it into the sky, then ran up the falling grains of sand to reach the beam before it winked out.
Wally West:
1. When in a movie theater he felt a tickle at the back of his neck and automatically went into super-speed mode and turned to see what it was. A mass murderer had stepped into the back odf the theater and let loose with a hail of bullets on the audiance. Wally got up and walked through the entire theater at superspeed and plucked every bullet out of the air until he reached the gunman and took him out.
Powers:
Speed Force Aura: The Flash's body is surrounded by what he calls his "speed force aura". This aura protects him and anyone who is running with him or carried by him, from the effects of using his speed. This includes friction and airborne particulate matter. It may also protect him from injury from high speed impacts such as punches he delivers and receives from his opponents. He does seem to possess some level of superhuman resistance to injury but this does not extend far past normal physical interactions, as received from normal combat.
Molecular Control: The Flash's powers allow him to perform a number of speed-related feats. The Flash has always possessed the ability to control his speed and angular momentum at the MOLECULAR level, and control his molecular interactions to allow his body to pass through any substance. There have been only a few superdense materials that the Flash has not been able to penetrate with this power. Certain forcefields also seem to negate this power. His power allow him to run along the surface of bodies of water and up the sides of buildings.
Increased Perceptions: The Flash possesses the ability to alter his perceptions so that falling objects can appear to be standing still and can be caught and moved back to their normal position. He can do this so quickly as to have it happen invisibly to the normal human eye. The Flash's reaction time is so increased as to perform feats of speed such as removing the momentum from bullets and fast moving objects thrown at him or at others.
Supercharged Brain Activity: The Flash's mental abilities are also increased in speed, simple computations can be done at lightning speeds, and his ability to perform normal feats at increased speeds has allow him to build hundreds of force field generators in a matter of hours, move sandbags to cover a beach or search an entire area for something as small as a paper clip. Wally can also read as superspeed, but rarely takes advantage of his ability to learn at increased speeds, although, Jay Garrick has done so and has become a jack of all trades in several disciplines and languages.
Super Speed Running: It appears that the Flash may run at any speed that he thinks is possible, but there may be physical limits to his speed. Theorectically, speeds greater than Mach 10, are dangerous to the people and to the environment. This speed would still be the equivalent to approximately 128 miles per second; allowing him to cross the United States in about 23 seconds, or circle the world in about 3 minutes. The Flash rarely achieves such speed in populated areas due to the effects of sonic disruptions and air displacements. His cruising speeds are probably around 90-150 miles per hour (1.5 - 2.5 miles per second). This is fast enough to move through most cities and around people without causing too much disruption to the population and slow enough for him to register everything he sees clearly. If he choses, Wally can approach the speed of light, and doing so, enters the Speed Force dimension. If he chooses to continue to run at light speed, he can use the Speed Force dimension for a form of haphazard Time Travel.
Sharing the Force: Since his interaction with the Speed Force, he may also lend his speed and angular momentum to another object or person. This may allow others to run alongside with the Flash. He may still allow his molecular structure to pass through object but now after he passes through an object, the object is now supercharged with a chaotic energy, and explodes seconds after his passing through it. His range of powers seems to have been increased significantly and he is now the fastest Flash to have ever lived. If he shares the Speed Force with another meta with superspeed capabilities such as Superman, that metahuman can now exceed the speed of light but does not become aware of the Speed Dimension.
Speed Feats: The Flash can also perform a variety of superspeed feats such as:
He can strike a single opponent hundreds of times in a second or multiple opponents two or three times in a second.
He can disarm, or jam any number of opponents weapons before they are even aware of his movement.
Hurl small projectiles at hypersonic velocities.
Pluck speeding projectiles from the air.
The creation of wind based vortecies that can act as barriers to movement, funnels for toxic gasses, or vacuum chambers.
He can spin his arms to create directed funnels of hurricane speed air that can knock down barriers or reduce the speed of a falling object. Now with his control of inertia, he can probably reduce the speed of a falling object directly by applying the speed force in reverse, to leech momemtum from the object.
He can run across bodies of water, up the sides of buildings, and by spinning like a helicopter, he can even perform a limited kind of flight. Since his power is a quantum/molecular phenomenon, it is theoretically possible for the Flash to be able to fly just as other metas do, (and there have been other flying speedsters in the past, such as the deceased Johnny Quick,) because he can control his absolute molecular energy and direction and force it in the direction he wished to move without running.
He can also impart molecular energy to a target to increase molecular movement, as he did against the water being called Flow, boiling him into steam for a short time.
Oh, here's a recent feat that reminded me of: the time he inadvertantly brought down a building by speeding up too fast and creating a sonic boom.
One time the bridge that seperates Keystone city and Central city was collapsing...
Wally ran to the library, read all of the books on construction and bridge building, ran out and got all the materials and actually made a LARGER and NICER bridge while the other was collapsing... all in under a minute or two.
He has a kinetic sheild and I think he can use that when theres a huge blast or radiation to protect him.
In the latest issue of JLA, Flash evacuated an entire city within seconds...or less than a second... before an atomic bomb struck the city.
Why argue with me.......
Originally posted by MaverickIce
PHOENIX IS DEAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!READ X-MEN 150!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
*sigh* Some day people will learn...
For your information, Phoenix is not dead. Read New X-Men #152? Please? Last page when Beast references her as his "ultimate soldier, my destroyer of worlds." You know, when she is laying in his arms after he STOLE the Phoenix Egg?
Dark Phoenix was NEVER part of the X-men, she was an enemy....
LoL - considering you have no clue about Phoenix being alive, should I asssume you have a clue about the history of the X-Men in general?
Phoenix is just a cop-out, its a good thing she's been WEAKENED.
Phoenix is Jean Grey's "other" name. The Phoenix Force is a seperate entity.
Do you think Jean would really let her self go, I mean, she wouldn't even do that against Onslaught.
Yep.
Ion,Paralllax,Spectre,Pre Crisis Prime Superman, Barry Allen, Wally West, Aquaman, Martian Manhunter (who has everything Supes has with telepathy almost as good as Prof. X) Batman. All those heroes, Parallax (Hal Jordan) Ion (Kyle) Spectre (Hal) together could quite possibly take the X-men by themselves, as they all have power to take out most of the universe.
The Phoenix Force multiplies its host's abilities infinintely. Infinitely. You know...infinitely? And since when is Ion, Parallax, Spectre, Superman Prime, and Barry Allen part of the current JLA? I did not think so either.
Oh, I think If MAGNETO can kill Phoenix (New X-men 150), Superman Pre-Crisis could Certanily kill her...
Did you read X-Men 150? He hit her with a planetary level stroke, then flipped the north and south poles. He did not kill her. Christ.
Primed Superman (pre crisis) shook galaxies, even was regarded as COSMIC.
Big deal.
When did Phoenix take down Galactus, that is pure bull crap. Phoenix isn't even that high of a Cosmic even, hell Captain Marvel is higher (Genis)!
Pure bull crap? AGAIN, considering you do not know Phoenix is ALIVE, why does it not surprise me that you have zero clue about the battle? Excalibur #61 by Alan Davis. Would you like to see another's review of the comic book?
"One Excalibur comic that sticks out in my mind is issue 61. This issue housed a battle between Phoenix and Galactus! >>>>I think this is probably one of the must spectacular battles ever seen in comics. I think the art is some of Alan Davis' best. The sight of this little (relatively speaking) human wasting the Devourer Of Worlds is incredible. It is certainly not common to see Galactus fall broken to the ground. However, the thing that impressed me the most about this encounter is not the battle itself, rather how it ended. It ended with the truth about Phoenix's power; it was profound.<<<< I think this is a good example of Alan Davis' greatness when it comes to telling a story. This encounter was violent; however, was not violent for the stake of being violent. Davis was making a strong point, and did it extremely well."
Would you like to say "owned" now or later?
LoL @ "why argue with me." Phoenix simply mind wipes Barry Allen and Wally West at the same time, lobotomizing both with icepicks. Since when was either immune to telepathic attacks? And, since you did not know, Phoenix is capable of FULL molecular manipulation.
Do you read comics?
Originally posted by Never[B]
*sigh* Some day people will learn...For your information, Phoenix is not dead. Read New X-Men #152? Please? Last page when Beast references her as his "ultimate soldier, my destroyer of worlds." You know, when she is laying in his arms after he STOLE the Phoenix Egg?
You know that 152 is an alternate dimension right... Like days of future past, etc.
LoL - considering you have no clue about Phoenix being alive, should I asssume you have a clue about the history of the X-Men in general?
Phoenix is Jean Grey's "other" name. The Phoenix Force is a seperate entity.
Yep.
The Phoenix Force multiplies its host's abilities infinintely. Infinitely. You know...infinitely? And since when is Ion, Parallax, Spectre, Superman Prime, and Barry Allen part of the current JLA? I did not think so either.
Is there a "current X-men team" if your going by New X-men as you apparently are, didn't Scott and Emma shut down the school in 151. Or are you going to use Uncanny X-men's, without Phoenix team.. Or are you using the Alternate version.
Did you read X-Men 150? He hit her with a planetary level stroke, then flipped the north and south poles. He did not kill her. Christ.
He killed Jean...
Big deal.
Pure bull crap? AGAIN, considering you do not know Phoenix is ALIVE, why does it not surprise me that you have zero clue about the battle? Excalibur #61 by Alan Davis. Would you like to see another's review of the comic book?
"One Excalibur comic that sticks out in my mind is issue 61. This issue housed a battle between Phoenix and Galactus! >>>>I think this is probably one of the must spectacular battles ever seen in comics. I think the art is some of Alan Davis' best. The sight of this little (relatively speaking) human wasting the Devourer Of Worlds is incredible. It is certainly not common to see Galactus fall broken to the ground. However, the thing that impressed me the most about this encounter is not the battle itself, rather how it ended. It ended with the truth about Phoenix's power; it was profound.<<<< I think this is a good example of Alan Davis' greatness when it comes to telling a story. This encounter was violent; however, was not violent for the stake of being violent. Davis was making a strong point, and did it extremely well."
Would you like to say "owned" now or later?
I admit I was wrong there. BUT Ion and Parallax and Spectre and Superman primed pre crisis would be able to do the same thing. The thing is, they are ridiculosly overpowered... X-men are just more popular
LoL @ "why argue with me." Phoenix simply mind wipes Barry Allen and Wally West at the same time, lobotomizing both with icepicks. Since when was either immune to telepathic attacks? And, since you did not know, Phoenix is capable of FULL molecular manipulation.
That still leaves you with the others...Spectre (who is immune to such attacks, as is green lantern with shields) etc. i also admit I was wrong on some points (ie galactus, which I still think Phoenix wouldn't win), but one person can't take them all..
Do you read comics?
Yes, I just gave you many an instance.....
Well. I never realised that Flash was such a complex character, some of those traits he possesses are really sweet. Interesting stuff too Maverick, thanks for posting.
As for Superman Prime, what the hell are you doing including him in the fight. That's like in the 853rd Century, it holds no reference to this battle.
Originally posted by VENOMfan
........holy crapwell a little off topic, but i asume Flash was much faster than Quicksilver, actually a hell of a lot faster, i hope im wrong becuase if Quicksilver can only run about 170, what's the point? cant Hulk ran like 300mph after he get's warmed up?
again i hope im wrong
Flash= WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY faster....................
You know that 152 is an alternate dimension right... Like days of future past, etc.
It says 150 YEARS LATER. And...Superman Prime is what? 😮 She did not die in #150. She was clutching her chest and crying when Beast said "Wolverine just went feral!" Have the book open right in front of me. Scott yells, saying "Jean! No! Jean!!" You are ASSUMING she died.
Is there a "current X-men team" if your going by New X-men as you apparently are, didn't Scott and Emma shut down the school in 151. Or are you going to use Uncanny X-men's, without Phoenix team.. Or are you using the Alternate version.
Of what relevance is this? Shutting down Xavier's School disbands the X-Men? No, the school is for X-Men in training. Emma, Scott, Beast, Phoenix are X-Men. And yes, I am using the New X-Men (actually just using Phoenix as she wipes out the entire JLA by herself without breaking a sweat).
I admit I was wrong there. BUT Ion and Parallax and Spectre and Superman primed pre crisis would be able to do the same thing. The thing is, they are ridiculosly overpowered... X-men are just more popular
What is Superman's defense against telepathy? And...again, since when are Ion and Parallax part of the current JLA? They are not, so why are they even being mentioned in this JLA vs. X-Men thread?
That still leaves you with the others...Spectre (who is immune to such attacks, as is green lantern with shields) etc. i also admit I was wrong on some points (ie galactus, which I still think Phoenix wouldn't win), but one person can't take them all..
See above comment. And regarding Galactus...*shrug* I daresay Alan Davis knows a tad more about comic book characters than you do, and does it matter what you think considering she already owned Galactus?
Excalibur #61. Feel free to go to any comic book shop and look for yourself.
Rachel is no "alternate cosmic." Superman Prime does not even EXIST in regular DC Comic continuity - Rachel does (in Marvel). Faulty comparison.
By the way, I am using Jean Grey - who was the original Dark Phoenix, you know. The same Dark Phoenix who Galactus ALSO looked at and said "shit, I better send Terrax?" Until Dark Phoenix owned Terrax? Heh
Superman Prime is in DC continuity, it's just a possible path that his life may lead. It's just a glance of things to come for Superman. However, this doesn't really make any difference. Neither Rachel or Superman Prime should be in this battle, since Rachel was from the future anyway, one where Jean and Scott had her I'm lead to believe. A different timeline.
It's kind of like the Superman Vs Hulk thread, both teams could beat each other. It just depends on the way the battle is fought. I.e Flash is informed by Batman through 'preperation' to take out Jean, and Xavier before harm can come to anyone through telepathic means.
Many possible outcomes, it's not really that clear-cut. With both sides having numorous ways in which they could be defeated. Still, I've learned a bit from the thread, so no harm done. At first I thought the comparison was a joke, which is obviously not the case. 😉
Superman Prime is in DC continuity, it's just a possible path that his life may lead.
He is not a part of current DC continuity.
Neither Rachel or Superman Prime should be in this battle, since Rachel was from the future anyway, one where Jean and Scott had her I'm lead to believe. A different timeline.
Rachel is a part of current Marvel continuity. Superman Prime is not a part of current DC continuity. Therein is the difference. Bishop is from the future. Shard? Cable? Many more, and they are all part of current Marvel continuity.
It's kind of like the Superman Vs Hulk thread, both teams could beat each other.
Give JLA prep time and they lose 10/10. Rachel defeats the entire JLA by herself. There is absolutely nothing that Wonder Woman, Flash, Superman, Martian Manhunter, Green Lantern, or Batman can do. Individually they are not in Rachel's league; as a team they are not in Rachel's league...and that's just Rachel.
She is way more experienced than their most experienced warrior (J'onnz); more powerful than their most powerful member (Superman); an infinitely more powerful telepath than their most powerful psi (J'onnz); can quite easily neutralize Flash, Green Lanther, and Batman.
Certainly welcome anyone to attempt to create a scenario in which the JLA could defeat simple old Rachel who never battled Galactus.