Great counter, laugh off the source. Denial is an ugly concept.
What forums? Ones full of Proof fans? It doesn't matter if there's other shit involved or not, if he fired the first shot, I defy any of you to deny he deserved what he got.
Posting that article was in response to WD's naive belief that this is all a playful act. It's quite clearly far from it if people are killing each other.
-AC
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
For the future referance, please understand that my choice of not replying to your posts reflects my opinion of you.I do not care, haven't the time or will to argue with you. I have already told you, I do not appreciate your opinion down my throat - and for the most part I do not think anyone cares about what you have to say, hence noone bothering.
This, obviously does not reflect that you are ''right'' just that noone gives a damn.
thank you
hey AC, no one cares if you prove them wrong. if you could go ahead and leave the thread now, that'd be great.
your ruining it.
Of course it hasn't. It's just a discussion. I've got nothing against these people.
I'm just not one of those to sit back and say "Yeah, everyone's right." which seems to be a contradictory requirement of this discussion board sometimes.
Originally posted by Phat J
thank youhey AC, no one cares if you prove them wrong. if you could go ahead and leave the thread now, that'd be great.
your ruining it.
Haha, "ruining it". Funny guy. No one seems to have a problem besides those who can't debate. WD doesn't have a problem discussing with me on any major level it would seem, neither does HH after we cleared up the little misunderstanding.
So if YOU don't like it, YOU leave the thread. I'm not stopping a discussion because you're feeling left out.
-AC
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
"Just bring who you gon' bring on.
Who you gon' swing on?
I'm King Kong, guns blow you to kingdom come.
Show you machine gun funk.
Sixteen M-16's and one pump.
The snub in my paw, shove it in your jaw.
Have you runnin out this f*ckin' club in your drawers.
We lovin' the broads, there's nothin' to applaud.
But f*ck, it it's all good, the hood is up in The Source.
It's fight music."Proof's verse from Fight Music by D12.
Five gun references in that small verse. How ironic, the man got shot dead.
"Aiyyo flashback, two feets, two deep up in that ass crack.
Weed laced with somethin', n*gga pass that.
In Amsterdam we only hang out with hash rats.
At a 'Stop the Violence' rally, I blast gats.
Be your mom on publishin', get your ASCAP-ped.
The Kuniva, divide up your cash stack.
Run your motherf*ckin' pockets, ASAP.
I don't need a platinum chain, b*tch I snatch Shaq's.
Born loser, half thief and half black.
Bring your boys and your guns and get laughed at.
B*tch smacker, rich rappers get they Jag jacked and found chopped up in a trash bag."Proof's verse on Under the Influence by Eminem.
Yeah, such a peaceful, non-violent MC who brought none of it on himself.
-AC
Mf Doom, Grimm, Aesop rap about guns too (not as much obviously).
Do violent movies encourage violence? And they should have more of an impact because it's visual, but yet is someone going to kill Tom Cruise because in "Collateral" he had a gun and killed many people in it, and someone may want to "try" him? Because of what he may have "promoted" in the film? The answers "No."
Know why? cause it's all in the name of entertainment. The telling of a story.
I look at rap especially the craziest s*** i listen to, as a form of entertainment. It doesn't and never did encouraged or provoke me at all.
So karma my ass. If so every rapper, violent action star, rock star and any other character displaying any form of intense entertainment should be all schedule to die doing what they loved, because it somehow means they live in the same way they work.
I really never got into him really deeply but Proof didn't deserve to die. I'm sure he didn't want to die. Wasn't looking to die. He took a wrong turn as we all do, at times. But it didn't have anything to do with his career. He was probably like that way before D12. With problems, just like everyone else.
Originally posted by Phat J
w/e manid argue with you but its really not worth my time.
I do love that. "I've replied but you're not worth my time." Nice one.
Originally posted by Inspectah Deck
Mf Doom, Grimm, Aesop rap about guns too (not as much obviously).
As I said previously, referencing and encouragement are two different ballparks.
Originally posted by FistOfThe North
Do violent movies encourage violence? And they should have more of an impact because it's visual, but yet is someone going to kill Tom Cruise because in "Collateral" he had a gun and killed many people in it, and someone may want to "try" him? Because of what he may have "promoted" in the film? The answers "No."
You are missing the point. I said it above, I've said it before:
There is a big difference between depiction and glorification/encouragement. If you fail to see this, that's your problem and you are obviously not capable of grasping the debate (as we saw previously in another thread).
Originally posted by FistOfThe North
Know why? cause it's all in the name of entertainment. The telling of a story.
I fail to see the story he's telling in Fight Music with "Guns blow you to kingdom come."
It's not in the name of entertainment if people are dying is it?
Originally posted by FistOfThe North
I look at rap especially the craziest s*** i listen to, as a form of entertainment. It doesn't and never did encouraged or provoke me at all.
Good for you then. That just means you're smarter than the people who are, it doesn't mean he's not encouraging people with his lyrics.
Originally posted by FistOfThe North
So karma my ass. If so every rapper, violent action star, rock star and any other character displaying any form of intense entertainment should be all schedule to die doing what they loved, because it somehow means they live in the same way they work.
No it doesn't. You, like many people in this thread, seem to have a drastic misconception of the two different points.
I'll say it again: Hostel is DEPICTING graphic violence. It's not encouraging it. Angel of Death by Slayer is TALKING about the holocaust, it's not saying "Go and do this" or "This is good". There is a big, big difference between "Look at this" and "Do this." Granted, people can become encouraged by either, but encouragement itself is more likely to cause bad reactions with bad promotion than anything else.
Common sense, dear boy.
Originally posted by FistOfThe North
I really never got into him really deeply but Proof didn't deserve to die. I'm sure he didn't want to die. Wasn't looking to die. He took a wrong turn as we all do, at times. But it didn't have anything to do with his career. He was probably like that way before D12. With problems, just like everyone else.
If he fired the first shot he deserved all he got. When you carry a gun and use it with the intent to kill, you are accepting the two extremes: Preparing to kill and preparing to die.
No more need be said. If he fired the first shot with intent to kill a man, and you still defend him, then I question your very mentality.
-AC
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
There is a big difference between depiction and glorification/encouragement. If you fail to see this, that's your problem and you are obviously not capable of grasping the debate (as we saw previously in another thread).I fail to see the story he's telling in Fight Music with "Guns blow you to kingdom come."
It's not in the name of entertainment if people are dying is it?
I'll say it again: Hostel is DEPICTING graphic violence. It's not encouraging it. Angel of Death by Slayer is TALKING about the holocaust, it's not saying "Go and do this" or "This is good". There is a big, big difference between "Look at this" and "Do this." Granted, people can become encouraged by either, but encouragement itself is more likely to cause bad reactions with bad promotion than anything else.
If he fired the first shot he deserved all he got. When you carry a gun and use it with the intent to kill, you are accepting the two extremes: Preparing to kill and preparing to die.
No more need be said. If he fired the first shot with intent to kill a man, and you still defend him, then I question your very mentality.
If you think some movies don't encourage violence then your as wrong as usual. Did proof depict violence and encourage it as well? Backwards thinking can only be learned by osmosis, Alpha, as we see here with you.
It's funny you how you mention the "grasping" thing because I thought the same about you. You see your points and your points only. Debating is seeing both points. Then coming to a conclusion. You just come to a conclusion, yours. Along with degrading, on the way. My view is what you didn't grasp because it'd be contrary to what you held on to. In other words disagreeing with yourself. And since you so sadly always think you're always right, or that's how you come across, (As we saw in another thread) it just thrusts in into a deeper state of denial, even more so. Hard. But I digress. Lets not get into a topic that already had it's own thread.
Your saying because "Hostel" is depicting violence it doesn't encourage it, makes me question your mentality meter. Pick it up some. Are you saying no one on this planet would in anyway be motivated to harm someone, by seeing how things are done in it, especially someone deranged, because the film only depicts violence? There's a possibility.
And don't be a hypocrite, for once. You claim the war in Iraq is a tragedy, yet US soldiers shoot Iraqis and vice versa. Do those teen-aged US soldiers deserve to get what they get?
C'mon now.
Originally posted by FistOfThe North
If you think some movies don't encourage violence then your as wrong as usual. Did proof depict violence and encourage it as well? Backwards thinking can only be learned by osmosis, Alpha, as we see here with you.
Haha "As wrong as usual". Where did I say all movies don't? I said there's a difference between depiction and encouragement. Stop making a fool of yourself.
I've proven that Proof not only depicted violence but encouraged it but speaking (or rhyming as it were) with underlying themes of positivity surrounding crimes such as: Gun use, domestic violence et al. You only need look at some of his verses.
Originally posted by FistOfThe North
It's funny you how you mention the "grasping" thing because I thought the same about you. You see your points and your points only. Debating is seeing both points. Then coming to a conclusion. You just come to a conclusion, yours. Along with degrading, on the way. My view is what you didn't grasp because it'd be contrary to what you held on to. In other words disagreeing with yourself. And since you so sadly always think you're always right, or that's how you come across, (As we saw in another thread) it just thrusts in into a deeper state of denial, even more so. Hard. But I digress. Lets not get into a topic that already had it's own thread.
Oh dear, you've tried to be smart to such a level that you've confused yourself.
I've said multiple times that I don't care if you disagree with me or not, and I'm sure likewise could be said about you. Of course I believe in what I say, that's why it's my viewpoint. I'm not here to be pacifist and say "Yeah, everyone's right really." You speak of denial yet when I explain this to you, you ignore it or change it to work to your advantage...still you fail.
As for the other thread, I handled you to the point that you couldn't continue posting and YOU (as many other posters witnessed, even ones who don't like me) tried to drag me into a childish trading of insults. Think.
Originally posted by FistOfThe North
Your saying because "Hostel" is depicting violence it doesn't encourage it, makes me question your mentality meter. Pick it up some. Are you saying no one on this planet would in anyway be motivated to harm someone, by seeing how things are done in it, especially someone deranged, because the film only depicts violence? There's a possibility.
Ok, first it's "You're".
Second, yes. That's exactly what I'm saying. Showing something violent and suggesting something violent are two different things. If I show you a video of domestic violence, that's depicting. Or rather the video is. Encouragement is additional persuasion. This is probably a little too complex for you though isn't it?
Read my posts, Clueless. I said that people CAN be encouraged by both, but more often than not someone encouraging someone to do something will have a greater effect than just showing them something.
Originally posted by FistOfThe North
And don't be a hypocrite, for once. You claim the war in Iraq is a tragedy, yet US soldiers shoot Iraqis and vice versa. Do those teen-aged US soldiers deserve to get what they get?C'mon now.
Yes they do. They signed up for the army, they knew what they were getting. Proof spoke about gun violence, acted in gun violence and now he's dead because of it.
Shoo.
-AC
"Depicting" violence is not limited to movies, gangsta rap songs "depict" violence as well by describing it rather than showing it. Whether it's a rap song or a movie or a video game.. the important thing to remember is it IS only entertainment and it is not you standing there having a serious discussion with someone while they encourage violence or a serious speech they are giving somewhere where they encourage violence. All music has a certain attitude, and a lot of rappers tend to depict the street life and gangsta attitude through their music, it's not the same as actually being a gangsta and it's not the same as encouraging violence. Even Mobb Deep were two college kids who basically engineered their rap personas.. they might as well have been actors helping depict violence in the inner city, but instead people mistake them as thugs. It's just a shame that some people can't distinguish between entertainment and reality.
On a side note, seeing that he was shot in detroit at 4:30 in the morning, I'd say it's very unlikely that the killer's motive was Proof's violent lyrics. He probably did do something to deserve it.
Originally posted by Afro Cheese
"Depicting" violence is not limited to movies, gangsta rap songs "depict" violence as well by describing it rather than showing it. Whether it's a rap song or a movie or a video game.. the important thing to remember is it IS only entertainment and it is not you standing there having a serious discussion with someone while they encourage violence or a serious speech they are giving somewhere where they encourage violence. All music has a certain attitude, and a lot of rappers tend to depict the street life and gangsta attitude through their music, it's not the same as actually being a gangsta and it's not the same as encouraging violence. Even Mobb Deep were two college kids who basically engineered their rap personas.. they might as well have been actors helping depict violence in the inner city, but instead people mistake them as thugs. It's just a shame that some people can't distinguish between entertainment and reality.
I will never understand how this can all be described as entertainment when the end result is eternal death. Someone feel free to explain to me how that works (I'm being sarcastic, it doesn't work and it's a bs claim).
You miss the point also Afro. The point is, as I tried to explain to Dwarf, is that whether it's an act or not, things need to be considered.
A) If it is an act, why the hell do you want to pretend to be a violent criminal and brag about bad things that you haven't done? That's asking for trouble as it is.
B) If it is real, then they deserve what they get. As I said before, laying with stray dogs will probably give you fleas. Flirting with danger puts you in danger, and that's what they do.
I guarantee you that if a man's gimmick was "I'm a member of the KKK" and he got murdered, despite it only being a gimmick, most people here would say "Deserved it."
Originally posted by Afro Cheese
On a side note, seeing that he was shot in detroit at 4:30 in the morning, I'd say it's very unlikely that the killer's motive was Proof's violent lyrics. He probably did do something to deserve it.
He had a gun on him with the intention of using it, so he's probably not too uninformed of gunfights. Deserves everything he got, in that case.
-AC
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
As for the other thread, I handled you to the point that you couldn't continue posting and YOU (as many other posters witnessed, even ones who don't like me) tried to drag me into a childish trading of insults. Think.Ok, first it's "You're".
Second, yes. That's exactly what I'm saying. Showing something violent and suggesting something violent are two different things. If I show you a video of domestic violence, that's depicting. Or rather the video is. Encouragement is additional persuasion. This is probably a little too complex for you though isn't it?
Read my posts, Clueless. I said that people CAN be encouraged by both, but more often than not someone encouraging someone to do something will have a greater effect than just showing them something.
Yes they do. They signed up for the army, they knew what they were getting. Proof spoke about gun violence, acted in gun violence and now he's dead because of it.
Shoo.
-AC
F***ing tomato, to-mato on the spelling, Mr Perfect.
And you handled me on the previous thread cause I didn't want to continue wasting my time arguing with you on a view you saw differently from mine. I had my view. You disagreed and insulted me for it, and cause I didn't continue on, cause I saw it going absolutely nowhere, you handled me? Lmao, You're full of s***, Starman. Unsurprisingly though, of course. Spell-check that.
You must love this place cause you can get away scott free with alot of the s*** you talk to people in here. haha. I know places where your attitude would be impermissible, dude. You'd end up like Proof.
"They signed up for the army, they knew what they were getting." Yet "I think it's a tragedy." That's like saying you feel sad for them but if they get their brains blown out, then oh well.
Subhumans.... how they boohoo with crossed fingers.
Originally posted by Alpha CentauriIt can be called "entertainment" because put frankly.. it is. Music is both art and entertainment.. no matter what they are talking about, what kind of music it is, how good/bad the artist is.. music will always be those two things.
I will never understand how this can all be described as entertainment when the end result is eternal death. Someone feel free to explain to me how that works (I'm being sarcastic, it doesn't work and it's a bs claim).You miss the point also Afro. The point is, as I tried to explain to Dwarf, is that whether it's an act or not, things need to be considered.
A) If it is an act, why the hell do you want to pretend to be a violent criminal and brag about bad things that you haven't done? That's asking for trouble as it is.
B) If it is real, then they deserve what they get. As I said before, laying with stray dogs will probably give you fleas. Flirting with danger puts you in danger, and that's what they do.
I guarantee you that if a man's gimmick was "I'm a member of the KKK" and he got murdered, despite it only being a gimmick, most people here would say "Deserved it."
He had a gun on him with the intention of using it, so he's probably not too uninformed of gunfights. Deserves everything he got, in that case.
-AC
As for "why would they pretend to be violent?" it's not a question that has one universal answer. Some depict violence cause they think the thug image is cool, others depict violence because bloodshed sells, and others depict violence to demonstrate a message to their listeners.
A lot of the rappers I've seen you post positively about have depicted violence at some point in their career. And they should be able to. Why? Cause it's just music, it's just entertainment, and we SHOULD be able to have artists express themselves in whatever way they want without people taking it literally. We SHOULD be able to have someone who claims to be in the KKK sing their little country songs without people going crazy over it. Sadly, people will never learn the perspective and restraint it takes to allow for this to happen, and that's why rappers are seen as criminals and metal bands seen as satanists.
Originally posted by FistOfThe North
F***ing tomato, to-mato on the spelling, Mr Perfect.
It wasn't a tomato/to-mato issue. You spelled it wrong, get over it.
Originally posted by FistOfThe North
And you handled me on the previous thread cause I didn't want to continue wasting my time arguing with you on a view you saw differently from mine. I had my view. You disagreed and insulted me for it, and cause I didn't continue on, cause I saw it going absolutely nowhere, you handled me? Lmao, You're full of s***, Starman. Unsurprisingly though, of course. Spell-check that.
You are the one who tried and failed to drag the debate into an insult war. I didn't descend to your level and forced you back on topic while everyone else made fun of your failed efforts to do so. When you did get back on topic, I sent you packing.
Originally posted by FistOfThe North
You must love this place cause you can get away scott free with alot of the s*** you talk to people in here. haha. I know places where your attitude would be impermissible, dude. You'd end up like Proof.
Hahaha, yes. I'll end up liked Proof. Possibly the most laughable claim I've read.
Secondly, people get away with much worse shit than me. I'm not breaking any rules. You just don't like how I am.
Originally posted by FistOfThe North
That's like saying you feel sad for them but if they get their brains blown out, then oh well.
Yeah, the concept of the Iraq war is a tragedy. The state of the world is a tragedy. It's not a tragedy when a soldier dies in war because that's what they sign up for. Stop following what other people tell you and misinterpreting my words.
Before I end this post, I want you to take a look at what I've reduced you to. Posting lengthy essays in reply to me with about a paragraph of on-topic material. You can't debate on topic because you talk bullshit.
-AC
Originally posted by Afro Cheese
It can be called "entertainment" because put frankly.. it is. Music is both art and entertainment.. no matter what they are talking about, what kind of music it is, how good/bad the artist is.. music will always be those two things.
It's an entertainment business. It stops becoming entertainment when people are dying.
Kids might love the gun talk, but they can't do gun talk if they're dead can they? How entertaining is that?
There are some avenues of music that are more focused on being entertainment than art. Kylie Minogue uses music as an accessory to her entertainment. Led Zeppelin were making music as art, it just happened to be entertaining because people connected to it on many great levels. It wasn't "Wow look at the pretty lights and costumes."
Originally posted by Afro Cheese
As for "why would they pretend to be violent?" it's not a question that has one universal answer. Some depict violence cause they think the thug image is cool, others depict violence because bloodshed sells, and others depict violence to demonstrate a message to their listeners.
The answer I have for the first two is: Idiots then.
For the latter: If it's done in an intelligent way, fine. "Guns blow you to kingdom come" and "I'm a ***** smacker" don't scream "I'm a smart guy."
Originally posted by Afro Cheese
A lot of the rappers I've seen you post positively about have depicted violence at some point in their career. And they should be able to. Why? Cause it's just music, it's just entertainment, and we SHOULD be able to have artists express themselves in whatever way they want without people taking it literally. We SHOULD be able to have someone who claims to be in the KKK sing their little country songs without people going crazy over it. Sadly, people will never learn the perspective and restraint it takes to allow for this to happen, and that's why rappers are seen as criminals and metal bands seen as satanists.
Firstly, you claiming that it's "just" music is subjective. I don't take music lightly. It's the most powerful and emotive artform on Earth and can make people feel great, bad, all things in between. It can also be used to make people do crazy things. Music isn't just entertainment, music is connected to, sometimes. Music isn't some throwaway medium.
In relation to your other claim; You miss the point AGAIN. Jesus.
We can sit here all day and say what people should be able to do. The fact of the matter is, as VVD pointed out: Tom Cruise doesn't leave the set of Mission: Impossible with a gun in his pocket and go on a secret mission, Robert Englund didn't go killing kids when he came off the set of A Nightmare on Elm Street. Proof comes away from the studio after rapping about gun crime and actually gets involved in gun crime.
He got what he deserved. Play with fire if you want, fair enough. Don't moan when you get burned.
-AC