Fate

Started by DigiMark00714 pages

Dj's words are very poetic...I'm not sure if I'd be able to refute or agree with them though. It sounds kinda like the power of positive thinking, which is evident in, say, self-fulfilling prophecies. But it can become erroneous and even dangerous when applied to a larger level, arguing that our thoughts and actions attract a certain destiny.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
However, the Uncertainty Principle could allow for more then one out come. It maybe vanilla for 1000 iterations or for 999. You can never know.

I don't believe that the Uncertainty Principle would be a factor here. Outcomes can be uncertain...they can even be two different things until they are somehow removed from their quantum state (usually simple interaction with other particles, or observing something, will suffice) but in my thought experiment everything is the same in each iteration. The uncertainty of the decision would be the same, and whatever quantum state became reality (vanilla instead of chocolate) would be the one that always happens...because the same forces would be at play that removed the quantum state "chocolate" from being a possibility.

About the only argument that might hold water concerning that is the idea of multiple (or infinite) universes, in which each quantum permutation comes to pass, and each deviation creates a new universe. I can't pretend to know the physics and rationale behind it (I heard it first when browsing some string theory articles) but the whole thing seems pretty unfounded to me at the moment.

I've also heard the argument that causality doesn't account for random generation of subatomic particles out of nothing. "Immaculate existence", to describe it using a religious parody. And perhaps they are right....we have no way of knowing at the moment. But those particles, however large or small, are still subject to causality once they exist.

well i can say that choices makes who we our right now...with it comes to destiny I think I believe everything happens for a reason...

Free Will is not entirely Free.

There are conditions: Need, Desire, and Influence- that determine your choices.

Need-we need to eat, breathe, sleep, and drink. We choose to eat, because we are hungry. We choose to drink because we are thirsty. We sleep because we are tired, and we breathe because we really don't have any other choice

Desire- we never really choose our desires. When it comes to sex, tastes in media, attractions, interests, etc. We act on our desires, and we make choices based on our desires, but we don't choose what we like, we only choose what we expose ourselves to, or what others expose to us.

Influence- other people, without a doubt, influence our biases. We have no way of avoiding that. We are often pressured into making choices we may not make otherwise. We may doubt ourselves and our decisions because of the negativity of others, or we may be pushed to a tough choice by the encouragement of others.

If Our will were entirely Free, then we wouldn't have conditions shaping our choices and actions. In turn , we wouldn't have to pay a price for every choice we make. But we do. Every choice has its consequence.

Nothing in life Is free. Choice isn't either. Not completely, at least.

I don't know, I guess I'm kinda in between. I believe that we were all put on this world for a purpose. But I think we've been given the choice as to whether we want to carry out that purpose or not. the problem is, we have to find our individual purposes.

For me, my greaest fear is leaving this world wihout fulfilling my purpose. I would see it as a wasted existence.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
...I don't believe that the Uncertainty Principle would be a factor here. Outcomes can be uncertain...they can even be two different things until they are somehow removed from their quantum state (usually simple interaction with other particles, or observing something, will suffice) but in my thought experiment everything is the same in each iteration. The uncertainty of the decision would be the same, and whatever quantum state became reality (vanilla instead of chocolate) would be the one that always happens...because the same forces would be at play that removed the quantum state "chocolate" from being a possibility.

About the only argument that might hold water concerning that is the idea of multiple (or infinite) universes, in which each quantum permutation comes to pass, and each deviation creates a new universe. I can't pretend to know the physics and rationale behind it (I heard it first when browsing some string theory articles) but the whole thing seems pretty unfounded to me at the moment.

I've also heard the argument that causality doesn't account for random generation of subatomic particles out of nothing. "Immaculate existence", to describe it using a religious parody. And perhaps they are right....we have no way of knowing at the moment. But those particles, however large or small, are still subject to causality once they exist.

I really don’t know, but the concept of the past being determined and the future being undetermined does not make sense to me. If time is space, that would be like down being different in some way from up other then being retrograde. I feel in my gut that the past and future must be the same. So, the past and future being undetermined or determined, I don’t know, I am convinced that thay must be the same.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I really don’t know, but the concept of the past being determined and the future being undetermined does not make sense to me. If time is space, that would be like down being different in some way from up other then being retrograde. I feel in my gut that the past and future must be the same. So, the past and future being undetermined or determined, I don’t know, I am convinced that thay must be the same.

Well, other than the fact that (speaking in the realm of time) the future hasn't happened yet, I never claimed in was undetermined. It will happen exactly as it will based on the influences that preceded it, just like the past did. So it's all determined and causal. The future is just as set as the past is, we just don't know what it is yet.

Originally posted by anrev
well i can say that choices makes who we our right now...with it comes to destiny I think I believe everything happens for a reason...

All well and good, but saying that our choices make us who we are doesn't really address free will vs. causality, it's just an asssessment of how you came to be like you are. And things happening for a reason...I'd like to think that the only reasons for my choices are "because that's what I chose based on the conditions within me at the moment of the decision"...if there's an overarching 'reason' to existence, it implies a level of control over us from something beyond the material world. Scary, no? But those who "follow God's Plan" and similar things never word it as "give up your choice and submit to another's will".

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Well, other than the fact that (speaking in the realm of time) the future hasn't happened yet, I never claimed in was undetermined. It will happen exactly as it will based on the influences that preceded it, just like the past did. So it's all determined and causal. The future is just as set as the past is, we just don't know what it is yet.

Then it maybe possible to see into the future, if not extremely difficult.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Then it maybe possible to see into the future, if not extremely difficult.

There's a problem with that though. Let's say I look into the future and see that I pick "vanilla" (going back to my original example). All well and good. BUT! The act of prediction changes the system in which the prediction was originally made. So I may still pick vanilla (or I might not), but it would be from an entirely different set of circumstances than the ones in which the prediction was made....thus making the prediction useless.

The prediction would have to predict the prediction, but also predict the prediction of the prediction, etc. etc. into an infinite loop of backward causality. So that wouldn't work either.

Is everything that happens in life part of a plan, or just random events?

Some believe that there is a master plan to life, whether it is God's plan or otherwise, and some believe that everything that happens is just random events that have no meaning.

Thoughts?

If this has been done before, please close.

Life is the choices you make.

We influence our own futures, there isn't a set "path" for us.

I believe it's something like 50/50. We do indeed make out own choices, but there are some things meant to happen, like two people destined to meet and spend their lives together.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi

Thoughts?

.

Philosophy forum.

Originally posted by grey fox
Philosophy forum.

Yep. 🙂

VERY Philosophy forum.

*packs shit and awaits move*

Originally posted by Röland
Life is the choices you make.

We influence our own futures, there isn't a set "path" for us.

Quoted for truth.

Re: Fate

Originally posted by Darth Revan
"Do you believe in fate, Neo?"
"No."
"Why not?"
"Because I don't like the idea that I'm not in control of my life."

What do you think of fate? Are we really in control of our own lives, or are we all part of some greater plan?

I'm not entirely sure myself. I don't like the idea that my future is planned out, but on the other hand, I sometimes feel like it is. When horrible things happen to people, they obviously didn't choose to have them happen. Is there a reason for these things to happen? Or is it just coincidence?

Fate is pointless.

"Your actions are predetermined."
"So what do I do next?"
"No idea."

Why are we supposed to care about fate if it is exactly the sane as free will?

I believe in most cases that we make our own choices, but there are somethings that you have no say over, for example; say you are a young child (between the ages of 10-14) and your mom, dad or whoever was taking care of you, says that you have to go to the store with them, you can verbally refuse to go, but you will end up going, because they made you go. Now, if they ask if you wanted to go, then you can decided if you want to or not.

Re: Re: Fate

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Fate is pointless.

"Your actions are predetermined."
"So what do I do next?"
"No idea."

Why are we supposed to care about fate if it is exactly the sane as free will?

What do you see before you that would enable you to decide what to do? In this world, you are given the illusion of freedom, and are taught to behave like a blind kitten. When that truth is revealed to you, you'll see how wrong you were.
The Creator is almighty precisely because He gives man everything: freedom of choice and strenth to act, understanding and attainment of the laws of reality. Upon choosing spirituality, man wishes to cleave to the Creator. This desire stands far above his self-benefit; it pertains to the attribute of being "for the Creator".
As long as you have not become a "man" - a person with a spiritual degree - and are still captivated by your corporel nature, you are incapable of making any decisions because all you can see is this world, not spiritual one.

Re: Re: Fate

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Fate is pointless.

"Your actions are predetermined."
"So what do I do next?"
"No idea."

Why are we supposed to care about fate if it is exactly the sane as free will?

I went to a talk where a guy was talking about something similar to this

He was talking more about dualism, but the same applies; it may be wrong, but its how we experience the world, and we really don't have any choice about that.

Its a strange philosophical idea, to live what you know to be the truth, or the way that feels most true... 🙂