Fahrenheit 9/11

Started by Darth Jello13 pages

i do have a solution. 1. legalize the industrial use of hemp. 2. use hemp farming on a massive scale to hep unemployement and to create paper and gasohol. 3. completely replace gasolene with gasohol as a fuel source. 4. declare saudi arabia, china, mexico, and pakistan rogue nations and refuse to do business with them. 5. put anyone within sniffing distance of iran contra and the last five presidencies on trial for treason and corruption. 6. begin supporting the palestinian people subversively in the removal of yassar arafat and the descrediting of hamas. 7. Use the general agreement on trade and tarrifs to put pressure on third world countries to raise their human rights records and standard of living. 8. cancel the international space station and stupid space probes while divesting all NASA funding toward the research of zero point energy. 9. declare hate speech illegal since it incites violence and is therefore not protected. 10. factor more than economics to gauge america's standard of living (health statistics, etc.)

How's that for a plan? I think it's entirely feasable if we aren't chicken. I'm moving up to boulder next year, and if you really think i'm still an "ignorant liberal", i'll collect signatures and run for office primarily to draw attention to these issues. Besides, i was under the impression that someone who reads newspapers, attends classes, and actually researches facts through several sources wasn't ignorant.....hmm....

Originally posted by The Omega
Ush> But Clarke worked in the White House at the time. So claiming that the White House approved the flights is correct.

✅ that's a great observation.

I think that Farenheit 9/11 is a good documentary. I dont know much about Michael moore. But he seems to want to exposed things the media doesnt want publicie. Of course there is people that mock him or criticize him for his facts. I think he is an honest man with an agenda in mind. If he gets information that others cant get, then that means someone is tip him off to reveal something that we dont know.

Ushgarak> Why do you doubt Michael? I would think someone like you wants to know the truths about our politics.

Creechuur and Cinemaddiction> you sound too critical of Farenheit 9/11! Have you seen it? Why do you feel the need to insult him? Calling fat! that's just crossing the line!

WindDancer> YOU seem to be his worst critic! Tell me, are you a Republican? do you support Bush? Why do you sound to sensitive just because he attacks the president! YOU are entitled to your opinion and so is Michael Moore!

the fat insults are actually kind of funny have you noticed that michael moore, kevin smith, Francis Ford Coppella, steven speilburg, peter jackson, and george lucas are all fat bearded white guys with glasses? so note to future directors: if you want to make good movies, stop shaving and start eating and staring at the sun!!! hell, this may deserve it's own thread.

Sounds like I'm destined to be a great filmmaker then.

that or a software writer, comicbook geek, Dungeons and dragons wiz, or brilliant cartoonist. pick one.

"Calling fat! that's just crossing the line!"

BwawwahahahahahahahhahahahahahahHAHAHAHAHAAHhaahahaa!!!! Hehe, whew! Oh, thats classic. After all I've said, the only thing she got was that I called Michael Moore fat. Jeez, no wonder you think the movie's a good 'documentary'.

MICHAEL MOORE'S A BIG FATTY FATSO!!!! NYAH!

Back to reality, I'm not talking just about the film. I'm talking about the way Moore uses half-truths and editing trickery to make certain events seem just the way he wants you to see them. You want proof? Google up "Michael Moore lies" and you'll have all kinds of proof, if you actually care to spend the time. He doesn't get info others can't, he twists images and sound into blatent hatred for his own country and laughs all the way to the bank.

Don't get me wrong, I'm no screaming conservative out for hippy blood. I understand the difference between democrats, liberals, and far-left nuts with charisma, and I focus my criticism justly.

Jello, dude, I said "realistic", not "everybody sees the light and realizes my way is the best way". Calling space probes 'stupid' was just...yeah. What is hate speech? Is calling Moore fat hate speech, or fact? How bout instead of catering to the weak (thus keeping them weak, see how the left works?), we encourage them to toughen up a bit? Sticks and stones and all that, y'know? I don't know about you, but I'm proud of what I am, and no one can make me hate myself with their speech.

Originally posted by Darth Jello
the fat insults are actually kind of funny have you noticed that michael moore, kevin smith, Francis Ford Coppella, steven speilburg, peter jackson, and george lucas are all fat bearded white guys with glasses? so note to future directors: if you want to make good movies, stop shaving and start eating and staring at the sun!!! hell, this may deserve it's own thread.

im sorry but i dont remmber steven speilburg being fat he does have a beard, but i dont think he is fat. but im prolly wrong.

Originally posted by Xena

WindDancer> YOU seem to be his worst critic! Tell me, are you a Republican? do you support Bush? Why do you sound to sensitive just because he attacks the president! YOU are entitled to your opinion and so is Michael Moore!

What??? Go back to page 3! I said it pretty clear! I don't support Republicans or liberals or any democrats! I only support the best people to do their job right! Do I support Bush you ask me? Well, there are things I agree with him and there are other things I DON'T agree with him! His foreign policies aren't my top interests. The domestic issues are more important. btw-Since you like Michael Moore does that mean you support Kerry for the election? You like the film so does that mean YOU are a Democrat???

The Omega> This is what the article said:

More Distortions From Michael Moore
Web Exclusive by Michael Isikolf and Mark Hosenball
Newsweek
Updated: 6:26pm ET June 30th 2004

June 30 - In his new movie, “Fahrenheit 9/11,” film-maker Michael Moore makes the eye-popping claim that Saudi Arabian interests “have given” $1.4 billion to firms connected to the family and friends of President George W. Bush. This, Moore suggests, helps explain one of the principal themes of the film: that the Bush White House has shown remarkable solicitude to the Saudi royals, even to the point of compromising the war on terror. When you and your associates get money like that, Moore says at one point in the movie, “who you gonna like? Who’s your Daddy?”

But a cursory examination of the claim reveals some flaws in Moore’s arithmetic—not to mention his logic. Moore derives the $1.4 billion figure from journalist Craig Unger’s book, “House of Bush, House of Saud.” Nearly 90 percent of that amount, $1.18 billion, comes from just one source: contracts in the early to mid-1990’s that the Saudi Arabian government awarded to a U.S. defense contractor, BDM, for training the country’s military and National Guard. What’s the significance of BDM? The firm at the time was owned by the Carlyle Group, the powerhouse private-equity firm whose Asian-affiliate advisory board has included the president’s father, George H.W. Bush.

Leave aside the tenuous six-degrees-of-separation nature of this “connection.” The main problem with this figure, according to Carlyle spokesman Chris Ullman, is that former president Bush didn’t join the Carlyle advisory board until April, 1998—five months after Carlyle had already sold BDM to another defense firm. True enough, the former president was paid for one speech to Carlyle and then made an overseas trip on the firm’s behalf the previous fall, right around the time BDM was sold. But Ullman insists any link between the former president’s relations with Carlyle and the Saudi contracts to BDM that were awarded years earlier is entirely bogus. “The figure is inaccurate and misleading,” said Ullman. “The movie clearly implies that the Saudis gave $1.4 billion to the Bushes and their friends. But most of it went to a Carlyle Group company before Bush even joined the firm. Bush had nothing to do with BDM.”

In light of the extraordinary box office success of “Fahrenheit 9/11,” and its potential political impact, a rigorous analysis of the film’s assertions seems more than warranted. Indeed, Moore himself has invited the scrutiny. He has set up a Web site and “war-room” to defend the claims in the movie—and attack his critics. (The war-room’s overseers are two veteran spin-doctors from the Clinton White House: Chris Lehane and Mark Fabiani.) Moore also this week contended that the media was pounding away at him “pretty hard” because “they’re embarrassed. They’ve been outed as people who did not do their job.” Among the media critiques prominently criticized was an article in Newsweek.

In response to inquiries from NEWSWEEK about the Carlyle issue, Lehane shot back this week with a volley of points: There were multiple Bush “connections” to the Carlyle Group throughout the period of the Saudi contracts to BDM, Lehane noted in an e-mail, including the fact that the firm’s principals included James Baker (Secretary of State during the first Bush administration) and Richard Darman (the first Bush’s OMB chief). Moreover, George W. Bush himself had his own Carlyle Group link: between 1990 and 1994, he served on the board of another Carlyle-owned firm, Caterair, a now defunct airline catering firm.

But unmentioned in “Fahrenheit/911,” or in the Lehane responses, is a considerable body of evidence that cuts the other way. The idea that the Carlyle Group is a wholly owned subsidiary of some loosely defined “Bush Inc.” concern seems hard to defend. Like many similar entities, Carlyle boasts a roster of bipartisan Washington power figures. Its founding and still managing partner is David Rubenstein, a former top domestic policy advisor to Jimmy Carter. Among the firm’s senior advisors is Thomas “Mack” McLarty, Bill Clinton’s former White House chief of staff, and Arthur Levitt, Clinton’s former chairman of the Securities and Exchange Commission. One of its other managing partners is William Kennard, Clinton’s chairman of the Federal Communications Commission. Spokesman Ullman was the Clinton-era spokesman for the SEC.

As for the president’s own Carlyle link, his service on the Caterair board ended when he quit to run for Texas governor—a few months before the first of the Saudi contracts to the unrelated BDM firm was awarded. Moreover, says Ullman, Bush “didn’t invest in the [Caterair] deal and he didn’t profit from it.” (The firm was a big money loser and was even cited by the campaign of Ann Richards, Bush’s 1994 gubernatorial opponent, as evidence of what a lousy businessman he was.)

continues in the next post.....

Most importantly, the movie fails to show any evidence that Bush White House actually has intervened in any way to promote the interests of the Carlyle Group. In fact, the one major Bush administration decision that most directly affected the company’s interest was the cancellation of a $11 billion program for the Crusader rocket artillery system that had been developed for the U.S. Army (during the Clinton administration)—a move that had been foreshadowed by Bush’s own statements during the 2000 campaign saying he wanted a lighter and more mobile military. The Crusader was manufactured by United Defense, which had been wholly owned by Carlyle until it spun the company off in a public offering in October, 2001 (and profited to the tune of $237 million). Carlyle still owned 47 percent of the shares in the defense company at the time that Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld—in the face of stiff congressional resistance—canceled the Crusader program the following year. These developments, like much else relevant to Carlyle, goes unmentioned in Moore’s movie.

None of this is to suggest that there aren’t legitimate questions that deserve to be asked about the influence that secretive firms like Carlyle have in Washington—not to mention the Saudis themselves (an issue that has been taken up repeatedly in our weekly Terror Watch columns.) Nor are we trying to say that “Fahrenheit 9/11” isn’t a powerful and effective movie that raises a host of legitimate issues about President Bush’s response to the September 11 attacks, the climate of fear engendered by the war on terror and, most importantly, about the wisdom and horrific human toll of the war in Iraq.

But for all the reasonable points he makes, on more than a few occasions in the movie Moore twists and bends the available facts and makes glaring omissions in ways that end up clouding the serious political debate he wants to provoke.

Consider Moore’s handling of another conspiratorial claim: the idea that oil-company interest in building a pipeline through Afghanistan influenced early Bush administration policy regarding the Taliban. Moore raises the issue by stringing together two unrelated events. The first is that a delegation of Taliban leaders flew to Houston, Texas, in 1997 (”while George W. Bush was governor of Texas,” the movie helpfully points out) to meet with executives of Unocal, an oil company that was indeed interested in building a pipeline to carry natural gas from the Caspian Sea through Afghanistan.

continues in the next post.....

The second is that another Taliban emissary visited Washington in March, 2001 and got an audience at the State Department, leaving Moore to speculate that the Bush administration had gone soft on the protectors of Osama bin Laden because it was interested in promoting a pipeline deal. "Why on earth would the Bush administration allow a Taliban leader to visit the United States knowing that the Taliban were harboring the man who bombed the USS Cole and our African embassies?" Moore asks at one point.

This, as conspiracy theories go, is more than a stretch. Unocal’s interest in building the Afghan pipeline is well documented. Indeed, according to “Ghost Wars: The Secret History of the CIA, Afghanistan, and Bin Laden, from the Soviet Invasion to Sept. 10., 2001,” the critically acclaimed book by Washington Post managing editor Steve Coll, Unocal executives met repeatedly with Clinton administration officials throughout the late 1990s in an effort to promote the project—in part by getting the U.S. government to take a more conciliatory approach to the Taliban. “It was an easy time for an American oil executive to find an audience in the Clinton White House,” Coll writes on page 307 of his book. “At the White House, [Unocal lobbyist Marty Miller] met regularly with Sheila Heslin, the director of energy issues at the National Security Council, whose suite next to the West Wing coursed with visitors from American oil firms. Miller found Heslin…very supportive of Unocal’s agenda in Afghanistan.”

Coll never suggests that the Clintonites’ interest in the Unocal project was because of the corrupting influence of big oil. Clinton National Security Council advisor “Berger, Heslin and their White House colleagues saw themselves engaged in a hardheaded synthesis of American commercial interests and national security goals,” he writes. “They wanted to use the profit-making motives of American oil companies to thwart one of the country’s most determined enemies, Iran, and to contain the longer-term ambitions of a restless Russia.”

Whatever the motive, the Unocal pipeline project was entirely a Clinton-era proposal: By 1998, as the Taliban hardened its positions, the U.S. oil company pulled out of the deal. By the time George W. Bush took office, it was a dead issue—and no longer the subject of any lobbying in Washington. (Vice President Dick Cheney’s energy task force report in May, 2001, makes no reference to it.) There is no evidence that the Taliban envoy who visited Washington in March, 2001—and met with State Department and National Security Council officials—ever brought up the pipeline. Nor is there any evidence anybody in the Bush administration raised it with him. The envoy brought a letter to Bush offering negotiations to resolve the issue of what should be done with bin Laden. (A few weeks earlier, Taliban leader Mullah Omar had floated the idea of convening a tribunal of Islamic religious scholars to review the evidence against the Al Qaeda leader.) The Taliban offer was promptly shot down. “We have not seen from the Taliban a proposal that would meet the requirements of the U.N. resolution to hand over Osama bin Laden to a country where he can be brought to justice,” State Department spokesman Richard Boucher said at the time.

The use of innuendo is rife through other critical passages of “Fahrenheit 9/11.” The movie makes much of the president’s relationship with James R. Bath, a former member of his Texas Air National Guard who, like Bush, was suspended from flying at one point for failure to take a physical. The movie suggests that the White House blacked out a reference to Bath’s missed physical from his National Guard records not because of legal concerns over the Privacy Act but because it was trying to conceal the Bath connection—a presumed embarrassment because the Houston businessman had once been the U.S. money manager for the bin Laden family. After being hired by the bin Ladens to manager their money in Texas, Bath “in turn,” the movie says, “invested in George W. Bush.”

The investment in question is real: In the late 1970’s, Bath put up $50,000 into Bush’s Arbusto Energy, (one of a string of failed oil ventures by the president), giving Bath a 5 percent interest in the company. The implication seems to be that, years later, because of this link, Bush was somehow not as zealous about his determination to get bin Laden.

Leaving aside the fact that the bin Laden family, which runs one of Saudi Arabia’s biggest construction firms, has never been linked to terrorism, the movie—which relied heavily on Unger’s book—fails to note the author’s conclusion about what to make of the supposed Bin Laden-Bath-Bush nexus: that it may not mean anything. The “Bush-Bin Laden ‘relationships’ were indirect—two degrees of separation, perhaps—and at times have been overstated,” Unger writes in his book. While critics have charged that bin Laden money found its way into Arbusto through Bath, Unger notes that “no hard evidence has ever been found to back up that charge” and Bath himself has adamantly denied it. “One hundred percent of those funds (in Arbusto) were mine,” says Bath in a footnote on page 101 of Unger’s book. “It was a purely personal investment.”

The innuendo is greatest, of course, in Moore’s dealings with the matter of the departing Saudis flown out of the United States in the days after the September 11 terror attacks. Much has already been written about these flights, especially the film’s implication that figures with possible knowledge of the terrorist attacks were allowed to leave the country without adequate FBI screening—a notion that has been essentially rejected by the 9/11 commission. The 9/11 commission found that the FBI screened the Saudi passengers, ran their names through federal databases, interviewed 30 of them and asked many of them “detailed questions." “Nobody of interest to the FBI with regard to the 9/11 investigation was allowed to leave the country,” the commission stated. New information about a flight from Tampa, Florida late on Sept. 13 seems mostly a red herring: The flight didn’t take any Saudis out of the United States. It was a domestic flight to Lexington, Kentucky that took place after the Tampa airport had already reopened.(You can read Unger’s letter to Newsweek on this point, as well as our reply, by clicking here.)

It is true that there are still some in the FBI who had questions about the flights-and wish more care had been taken to examine the passengers. But the film’s basic point—that the flights represented perhaps the supreme example of the Saudi government’s influence in the Bush White House-is almost impossible to defend. Why? Because while the film claims—correctly—that the “White House” approved the flights, it fails to note who exactly in the White House did so. It wasn’t the president, or the vice president or anybody else supposedly corrupted by Saudi oil money. It was Richard Clarke, the counter-terrorism czar who was a holdover from the Clinton administration and who has since turned into a fierce Bush critic. Clarke has publicly testified that he gave the greenlight—conditioned on FBI clearance.

“I thought the flights were correct,” Clarke told ABC News last week. “The Saudis had reasonable fear that they might be the subject of vigilante attacks in the United States after 9/11. And there is no evidence even to this date that any of the people who left on those flights were people of interest to the FBI.” Like much else relevant to the issues Moore raises, Clarke’s reasons for approving the flights—and his thoughts on them today—won’t be found in “Fahrenheit 9/11,” nor in any of the ample material now being churned out by the film-maker’s “war room” to defend his provocative, if flawed, movie.

© 2004 Newsweek, Inc.

Originally posted by The Omega
Ush> But Clarke worked in the White House at the time. So claiming that the White House approved the flights is correct.

But Moore's suggestion is that it was Bush's Inner Circle that did it, Omega, INSTEAD- even over the top of- Clarke, who as a critic of Bush policy is actually one of Moore's designated good guys. It wasn't the White House he was pointing the finger at- it was Bush.

Clarke's admission it was him buries the conspiracy theory, unless Moore makes a sudden u-turn and declares him part of the Bush cabal as well- highly unlikely.

"Ushgarak> Why do you doubt Michael? I would think someone like you wants to know the truths about our politics."

See, as I said before, I don't need Moore to know anything purely factual mentioned in this film that I have yet heard- I keep abreast of things on my own initiative.

I doubt him because I have seen him be wrong about things before and one must ALWAYS question a clearly partisan viewpoint. This film may be an important demonstration of how good presentation does not necessarily equal accurate fatcs.

But that does not mean I doubt him deliberately to a greater extent than others; for example, rather Michael Moore than Dick Cheney, in my opinion. I apply the same criteria to anyone.

Originally posted by WindDancer
Like much else relevant to the issues Moore raises, Clarke’s reasons for approving the flights—and his thoughts on them today—won’t be found in “Fahrenheit 9/11"

To be fair on Moore, that's because Clark didn't admit that until after Moore had made the film. But it is a demonstration of how you cannot always take what Moore says on face value. He sees things that do not exist and sometimes states ideas as fact.

I know my Canadian friends seriously disupute his comparison of Canadian and US gun cultures from BFC as well- similar sort of thing, he kinda whisks you though that one.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
"Ushgarak> Why do you doubt Michael? I would think someone like you wants to know the truths about our politics."

the truth when does micheal no shit about the truth. he says what he wants for more fam and money. like i have said before and will prolly say again. before he knew the cause to the iraq war he said the cause was unjust. but he didn't quite know the cause yet, so if that the truth about our politics as you say then that truth sucks.

"But for all the reasonable points he makes, on more than a few occasions in the movie Moore twists and bends the available facts and makes glaring omissions in ways that end up clouding the serious political debate he wants to provoke."

That said it all, right there. Thanks for the article WindDancer, I hadn't read it yet. I had read about some of the points already (the pipeline, the Bin Ladens[who have disowned Osama for years, BTW]) but I got a lot of new info too. Just more half-truths under Moores belt.

"See, as I said before, I don't need Moore to know anything purely factual mentioned in this film that I have yet heard- I keep abreast of things on my own initiative."

Well said Ush. With the vast amount of knowledge at our fingertips via the web, it never ceases to amaze me how...ignorant...some posters can be. Be a liberal, be a conservative, be a sneech with a star on your belly, but for cripes sake, BE INFORMED. Know enough about the subject to at least back up your opinions with more than name calling and rhetoric.

That article is BOGUS. is more directed at Michael Moore ideas! But of course is from Newsweek a very conservative news magazine. They will criticize anyone or anything that is involve with liberals.
Creechur> I meant to say that to attack his weight problem is something childish! he is obese but that's that mean he is a lying individual?
Ushgarak>if you apply the same criteria to eveyone that means you like to be neutral. But up to this point you seem to doubt Moore's movie more than his ideas. why is that?

Originally posted by WindDancer
btw-Since you like Michael Moore does that mean you support Kerry for the election? You like the film so does that mean YOU are a Democrat???

Who i vote for or support is my PERSONAL business! i dont have to tell you everything about my political views! If i vote for Kerry is my darn right! why should i be force to change my mind? just because people like you seem so supportive of the presidents ideas!

Originally posted by Xena Who i vote for or support is my PERSONAL business! i dont have to tell you everything about my political views! If i vote for Kerry is my darn right! why should i be force to change my mind? just because people like you seem so supportive of the presidents ideas! [/B]

then why is it you wont share who you voted for. if you voted for a person then why hide it. i think those that hide there votes arn't ceeping this "PERSONAL business" there just embaressed about who they voted for. but then once again my opinion, i tell everyone who i voted for but w/e

"Who i vote for or support is my PERSONAL business! i dont have to tell you everything about my political views"

Spoken like a true liberal. You use your personal rights as a defensive shield, rather than a priviledge. Like Vengeance, I'll tell you who I'd vote for and why, in any election. I have no power over what world leaders or powerful Hollywood schmucks like Michael Moore do, but I do have the right to agree or disagree and to voice my opinions, which is more than people in some countries have. If you keep your views to yourself, I have to question why.

I'm not voting, both candidates suck on an equal level. It's like choosing between vomit or shit.