Again, Whob, I'm not quite an Athiest, I'm more an agnostic. Big difference. I agree with you about Athiesm, for the record. I used to consider myself an Athiest, then I realized and felt that it was quite foolish to flat out deny something that can't be proven or disproven, and is, in essence, no different then those who flat out accept the idea of a deity. I didn't want to be in either group, hence, agnostic.
I'm not justifying killing human life. I'm more or less saying that I think it's a necessary evil, if you will, to have it allowed and available to those who wish to take part in the proceedure. If you disallowed it, then women would do it illegally anyways, back alley abortions - if you will, making it illegal would not halt abortions, it would just make them more dangerous for everyone involved, and rather then the money going to the government and doctors, it would go to criminals, possibly dangerous ones. Thus, it's necessary to keep it legal so this kind of thing can be avoided. I don't think it's an animalistic view, it's just realistic with the world around us.
You claim there is but one truth, which is fine, but the problem is, no one really knows what that ONE TRUTH is, especially when it comes to religious beliefs. That's why they're called beliefs, because there is no right or wrong answers. What makes your belief "The truth"? And if it's absolute, if it's the truth, how can it be proven as such?
Originally posted by BackFireExactly. The world isn't black and white it's a veritable myriad of greys. A 14 yo girl who's raped by her uncle and impregnated and has the pregnancy terminated. Is a very different scenario from, I'll intentionally kill off all the first borns to prove a point.
Again, Whob, I'm not quite an Athiest, I'm more an agnostic. Big difference. I agree with you about Athiesm, for the record. I used to consider myself an Athiest, then I realized and felt that it was quite foolish to flat out deny something that can't be proven or disproven, and is, in essence, no different then those who flat out accept the idea of a deity. I didn't want to be in either group, hence, agnostic.I'm not justifying killing human life. I'm more or less saying that I think it's a necessary evil, if you will, to have it allowed and available to those who wish to take part in the proceedure. If you disallowed it, then women would do it illegally anyways, back alley abortions - if you will, making it illegal would not halt abortions, it would just make them more dangerous for everyone involved, and rather then the money going to the government and doctors, it would go to criminals, possibly dangerous ones. Thus, it's necessary to keep it legal so this kind of thing can be avoided. I don't think it's an animalistic view, it's just realistic with the world around us.
You claim there is but one truth, which is fine, but the problem is, no one really knows what that ONE TRUTH is, especially when it comes to religious beliefs. That's why they're called beliefs, because there is no right or wrong answers. What makes your belief "The truth"? And if it's absolute, if it's the truth, how can it be proven as such?
I'm not well read on The Bible the parts I have read I did so a long time ago. Things like an eye for an eye vs forgiveness seem incongruous. And parts of Leviticus I've seen seem like pure randomness.
Originally posted by BackFire
[B]Again, Whob, I'm not quite an Athiest, I'm more an agnostic. Big difference. I agree with you about Athiesm, for the record. I used to consider myself an Athiest, then I realized and felt that it was quite foolish to flat out deny something that can't be proven or disproven, and is, in essence, no different then those who flat out accept the idea of a deity. I didn't want to be in either group, hence, agnostic.
It's essentially the same thing. You still don't believe in any religion. Gotta call a spade a spade my friend. Being an agnostic is essentially just a different form of Atheism..as is Evolution.. ...they're all essentially Humanistic religions..
I'm not justifying killing human life. I'm more or less saying that I think it's a necessary evil, if you will, to have it allowed and available to those who wish to take part in the proceedure. If you disallowed it, then women would do it illegally anyways, back alley abortions - if you will, making it illegal would not halt abortions, it would just make them more dangerous for everyone involved, and rather then the money going to the government and doctors, it would go to criminals, possibly dangerous ones. Thus, it's necessary to keep it legal so this kind of thing can be avoided. I don't think it's an animalistic view, it's just realistic with the world around us.
So it's necessary to allow one type of evil to prevent another? How about just preventing all forms of evil to begin with, by setting rules and guidelines to abide by..and punishing those who break them.
Not all rules will be followed at all times, but that doesn't mean we should discard them just because we know that at some point they will be broken..
You claim there is but one truth, which is fine, but the problem is, no one really knows what that ONE TRUTH is, especially when it comes to religious beliefs. That's why they're called beliefs, because there is no right or wrong answers. What makes your belief "The truth"? And if it's absolute, if it's the truth, how can it be proven as such?
The one Truth that we can be certain of in life is that there is an Intelligent Creator...looking at the Universe and its intricate designs..you'd have to be a complete fool not to acknowledge this.
The other questions..such as who this intelligent Creator is? Where he came from? Who Jesus was/is are all based on faith..and faith is something that we all have to choose for ourselves.
Atheism is very different from being an Agnostic. Atheis flat out deny's the the existance of god, rejects it in every form. Agnostic doesn't deny the possibility, nor does it confirm. It's the middle ground.
Even if abortion was made illegal here,there would still be legal ways to get it done. Someone could fly to another country to get the operation if they wanted to. So again, I'd say it's best to keep it legal, that way any money made from the procedure goes to our government, instead of criminals or another country. Also, our prisons are over crowded enough as it is, don't need more people bogging them down who really don't deserve to be there.
Truth is provable, absolute. The "truth" you mention is nothing more then a belief that you have that makes sense to you, that doesn't make it a truth.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Exactly. The world isn't black and white it's a veritable myriad of greys.
That's a belief system I'd rather not ascribe to X. Life is full of absolutes. The fact that your here typing and replying on this board is an absolute truth. The bottom line is that there is right and wrong. Good and Evil.
A 14 yo girl who's raped by her uncle and impregnated and has the pregnancy terminated. Is a very different scenario from, I'll intentionally kill off all the first borns to prove a point.
Let me ask you..what did the child do to the 14 yo? As I asked BF before..Does one evil somehow justify another?
As far as God's punishment on Egypt goes, you can think what you like...but again..as I've stated several time's, it's difficult to judge an action that you clearly don't understand.
For example..
I can't judge the quality of a mechanic's work..if I have no knowledge of what a car is, how it was created, or how to operate it. However if the mechanic owns the car..guess what..he has the right to take it apart..and do with it what he wants. I may think it sucks..especially if I deem it to be a nice looking car, but based on his knowledge of the car..maybe he knows something about that I didn't..and is more qualified to make that decision on what to do with it..😉
I'm not well read on The Bible the parts I have read I did so a long time ago. Things like an eye for an eye vs forgiveness seem incongruous. And parts of Leviticus I've seen seem like pure randomness.
Well an eye for an eye a tooth for a tooth was part of Old Testament..but I must tell you..if you look at life from a philosophical standpoint..you can see that this type of belief exists within the new testament as well. According to the words of Jesus, Solomon, Paul and many others..Each man....will get back exactly what he has given..whether it be good or bad..in this life or the next...
Originally posted by whobdamandog
Do you have to paint your face brown to be an African American? Do you have to die your hair blonde to be white. These traits are passed on to us through our genetics..as is the condition known as "sin." Sin is essentially this.."Anything that acts against God"We are conceived in a world that is "against God"..therefore..upon our birth..even as a child..we are considered "against god" or "sinful." How do we become a child of God again..simple..by believing in Christ as our Lord and Savior..its that simple.
Yes there could be something true in saying that sin, evil whatever... have something hereditary at least, I will not say genetic because that would mean that our DNA structure carry the information about our sin. I don´t know if sin is a physical thing that depends on DNA, that way it would be possible to manipulate DNA, to manipulate sin as well. Maybe sin is hereditary but not that it necessarily depends on DNA.
There are shades of right and wrong. I don't prescribe to moral absolutes because the world isn't made of absolutes. If you're saying a 14 yo should be forced to carry a zygote conceived from rape to term, despite the fact that this has severe physical health risks for the girl and the zygote/embryo/fetus, as well as adding to severe emotional trauma from the rape. Also the zygote considering it is derived from a consanguineous pairing will likely have rare recessive disorders.
For the record I don't consider that at zygote stage can be afforded the same rights as "people" or "children". Considering how many fertilised ova are lost naturally without anyone realising through failure to implant.
Originally posted by BackFire
Atheism is very different from being an Agnostic. Atheis flat out deny's the the existance of god, rejects it in every form. Agnostic doesn't deny the possibility, nor does it confirm. It's the middle ground.
Let me rephrase what I posted..so we do not bring this into a definition debate. Atheism..Agnosticism, Evolutionism..they're all basically different sects of "Humanism" which essentially like to deem themselves as secular.
Secular meaning..not attributed to the belief or restriction of any religion. The definition of secularism is essentially an oxymoron, however, seeing as how a secularist belief system followed with zeal become's a religion.
So to be honost..true secularism...doesn't really exist.
Confusing..huh... 😕
Even if abortion was made illegal here,there would still be legal ways to get it done. Someone could fly to another country to get the operation if they wanted to. So again, I'd say it's best to keep it legal, that way any money made from the procedure goes to our government, instead of criminals or another country. Also, our prisons are over crowded enough as it is, don't need more people bogging them down who really don't deserve to be there.
I'm sorry buddy, but that sounds very cruel. What you've just done is put a value on human life. A monetary value. The fact that the Government does/does not receive money from an abortion should have no bearing on whether or not it should be deemed a justifiable legal action.
You've also made another bad assumption..that if an unwanted child were allowed to live..they would autmatically become a threat to society.
Still despite my disagreement with your points..I do believe society needs to do much more in terms of accepting those who have children out of wedlock, and making it easier for them to survive, rather then condemning them. That's part of the reason why so many people make the wrong choice..because society gives them little options and little support when it comes to making the right one. Believe me..I know this for a fact..seeing as how I'm a single parent myself.
Truth is provable, absolute. The "truth" you mention is nothing more then a belief that you have that makes sense to you, that doesn't make it a truth.
A belief doesn't have to make sense to everyone to make it "truth."
For example I can tell you that 2 plus 2 = 4. You may not understand it or agree with it, however, that still doesn't make it any less of a Truth.
About this subject I believe in something like Karma. We have some Karma accumulated by our previous "wrongdoings", and this way a person when is born already has a Karmic background. So, in some precise perspective, he or she is already born evil.
But things are a little more complex in this perspective, there would be a individual karma, a family karma, a world karma, etc. This way, there are things which are really your problem(individual karma), but part of it is related to our family, other with our country, or world, etc.
Concluding, I think that our "sin" have something hereditary indeed, and that we share it with others, because at least we are part of the world, but that part which we herited is ours now, and it is our problem(since we have a individuality, we have a individual karma).
This Karma is something that is not immutable, its our actions which determine the Karma(we must do a bad thing to acquire bad karma, or vice versa). This implies that everything that actually happens in our lives, its determined by our actions, and no one gets what he or she didn´t deserve. If we want greatness, we must deserve it, like Jesus deserved.
Originally posted by Atlantis001
Yes there could be something true in saying that sin, evil whatever... have something hereditary at least, I will not say genetic because that would mean that our DNA structure carry the information about our sin. I don´t know if sin is a physical thing that depends on DNA, that way it would be possible to manipulate DNA, to manipulate sin as well. Maybe sin is hereditary but not that it necessarily depends on DNA.
Let me clarify something..the original sin by Adam was not genetic..however..everything after that was passed on through him to us..his children.
We are all carriers of sin now because of him..and have it within our nature. As I've stated before, some types of sin may be more heavily engrained within our genetics more so than others, however, that doesn't negate our ability to refrain from carrying out these evil desires that we inherently harbor from within.
It's a task that we can't completely do alone..that's why God came down..in the form of a man..to help us out. He knew we couldn't do it alone, and he knew that he could. So he decided to sacrafice himself..in human form, to save us from this world filled with sin and evil. I guarantee you, if he hadn't come..we'd all be much closer to the way of destruction than we are now.
Originally posted by Atlantis001
[B]About this subject I believe in something like Karma. We have some Karma accumulated by our previous "wrongdoings", and this way a person when is born already has a Karmic background. So, in some precise perspective, he or she is already born evil.But things are a little more complex in this perspective, there would be a individual karma, a family karma, a world karma, etc. This way, there are things which are really your problem(individual karma), but part of it is related to our family, other with our country, or world, etc.
Concluding, I think that our "sin" have something hereditary indeed, and that we share it with others, because at least we are part of the world, but that part which we herited is ours now, and it is our problem(since we have a individuality, we have a individual karma).This Karma is something that is not immutable, its our actions which determine the Karma(we must do a bad thing to acquire bad karma, or vice versa). This implies that everything that actually happens in our lives, its determined by our actions, and no one gets what he or she didn´t deserve. If we want greatness, we must deserve it, like Jesus deserved.
And I have to respectfully disagree with you..we don't deserve greatness..but the gift of greatness..is freely given to us..through belief in Christ...why does God not want to measure us based on our works? Well two reasons...
1 So no man could boast about making it to heaven based on his works.
2. No man was truly able to meet the extremely high standards that God requires.(Physically, Spiritually, etc)
I´m not disagreeing, I just saying that maybe sin is not exactly genetic... hereditary, but not genetic.... with DNA, chromosomes, and all.
About Adam... yes I think that there could be some truths if the bible is not taken literally, but understood in a symbolic, and philosophical perspective. The interpretation would be better if Adam was not a man living in a imaginary land called paradise, but a principle as I believe. Like Jesus too, I don´t think he was not conceived by common ways, but that is supposed to mean something, and that meaning could have some sense.
Originally posted by whobdamandog
And I have to respectfully disagree with you..we don't deserve greatness..but the gift of greatness..is freely given to us..through belief in Christ...why does God not want to measure us based on our works? Well two reasons...1 So no man could boast about making it to heaven based on his works.
2. No man was truly able to meet the extremely high standards that God requires.(Physically, Spiritually, etc)
But he does measure us based on our works... thats why bad people go to hell, right ? So self-enlightment, self-improvement which are things that depend on our works are not needed to go to heaven ? Its is like if we don´t need to make a effort to go to heaven.
If he don´t measure us by our works, then he has no stantarts. Which standarts are you talking about ? Do you mean... like being like Jesus ?
So, do you think that no one could be in the same level of Jesus ?
I'm sorry buddy, but that sounds very cruel. What you've just done is put a value on human life. A monetary value. The fact that the Government does/does not receive money from an abortion should have no bearing on whether or not it should be deemed a justifiable legal action.You've also made another bad assumption..that if an unwanted child were allowed to live..they would autmatically become a threat to society.
Still despite my disagreement with your points..I do believe society needs to do much more in terms of accepting those who have children out of wedlock, and making it easier for them to survive, rather then condemning them. That's part of the reason why so many people make the wrong choice..because society gives them little options and little support when it comes to making the right one. Believe me..I know this for a fact..seeing as how I'm a single parent myself.
It may be cruel, but it's realistic and honest as well. Many laws are created with this train of thought. Simply put, I believe it's better the government profit from this then criminals and other countries, because, as I said, like it or not people WILL find ways to have abortions. Of course, you're welcome to disagree with this, if it's too cruel or whatever, for you. I can see where you're coming from.
I believe you misinturprited somethign I said, I never meant to suggest that unwanted children would become criminals, my statement to the over population of prison was in reference to the number of women who would be forced into prison for having an abortion if it was an illegal act. Sorry for the confusion.
As for your latter point, I simply agree.
A belief doesn't have to make sense to everyone to make it "truth."
For example I can tell you that 2 plus 2 = 4. You may not understand it or agree with it, however, that still doesn't make it any less of a Truth.
Nope, but it does have to be provable and absolute, your "truth" is not.
Okay so I'm not reading all 13 pages of this just for two sentence(ish) comments:
Are some people born evil?
ans: Yes. All are born "evil," so far as evil pertains to the tendency towards doing wrongful acts and fulfilling selfish desires over helping others.
Many people learn to be "good" through love, attention, and discipline, but there's a lot of abuse and hate in the world, which turns pain into anger into more abuse and hate...what a lovely cycle How shall we break it?
Originally posted by Atlantis001
But he does measure us based on our works... thats why bad people go to hell, right ? So self-enlightment, self-improvement which are things that depend on our works are not needed to go to heaven ? Its is like if we don´t need to make a effort to go to heaven.
As I've stated before..we are all inherently evil in the eyes of God. Through belief in Christ as our savior..we become "righteous." and God extends his grace to us..allowing us to be with him in heaven. The product of our faith in Christ...will be the good "works" that he produces through us. Works..without faith in Christ, mean nothing to God..and will not get us into heaven..
If he don´t measure us by our works, then he has no stantarts. Which standarts are you talking about ? Do you mean... like being like Jesus ?
So, do you think that no one could be in the same level of Jesus ? [/B]
God does have standars..but his standards are extremely high..and no human being could ever meet them..that's why he came down to earth in the form of a man, So that he could live the standard that we could not..making himself the "sacraficial lamb"..and creating a way for us to be with him again, without having to face eternal punishment. All we have to do is make a simple choice..accepting Christ as our Savior. Accepting Christ also means that we will accept his simple commands. The main ones being...
To love God..
and to love one another..
Not so hard to accept, if you really think about it.
Re: Are some people born evil?
Originally posted by NapalmNo
was ed gein evil? what about hitler or charles mansion? were they born evil?
For the record when hitler rode through the towns he destroyed he covered the flap on his vehicle.
He couldn't stand to see a dead body, and he almost killed himself because of the destruction.