I just wanted to add one more thing. The bad choices we make can adverserly effect other people. Just look at the War in Iraq, the Holocaust, the vietnam war, as well as many disasters that have taken place throughout the ages. A few men made choices to go to war, and a lot of "innocent" people died in the process. In the end, our poor choices can do more than just hurt us..but they can hurt many "innocent" people as well...
Originally posted by BackFire
Yes, I think it's an essential option that needs to be available.Though, personally I'd never be able to handle it myself, I'd never want to do it if a girl I was with got pregnant.
Excellent...we're making progress..
But as you said..it's an option that's available to a woman..correct? Particularly since she is the one who is carrying the "life"
So it would be her choice to decide whether or not the child lives or dies...correct?
So let me just put things in perspective a bit...
You essentially believe that...
Exploitation of a child's life..of any kind is wrong...(ie child porn)
A woman has the right to choose whether or not a child lives or dies.
That the Creator of life, does not have the right..to choose whether or not a child lives or dies...
Your "God"..."Common Sense"...should tell you that there are many contradictions with his belief system referenced above...
Life's Creator...has more of a right than any person..male or female..to determine whether or not an individual should live or die. To state that a human has the right to make life/death decisions but an "omniscient" God does not is absurd, and once again demonstrates the the gradual decline of "common sense" in today's world.
Just wanted to point out the core contradiction with your religion one more time BF...
Originally posted by Backfire
In my mind, that still doesn't justify killing children that had nothing to do with the Pharoahs actions or plans.
BF on Abortion...
Originally posted by Backfire
Yes, I think it's an essential option that needs to be available.
So again it is your belief that killing children is justifiable..if a female human decides it's not convenient for her to have one?
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
At what point is it a "child" that the woman is choosing whether or not she carries? 64 cells? 32 cells? 16? 8? 4? 2? 1?If people are born evil, are they already evil in the womb?
Originally posted by whobdamandog
Everyone is born evil. The only men born good were Adam and Jesus, and Adam became evil when he sinned against God. Every man from that point on carries the genetic curse brought on by Adam,(with the exception of Jesus of course, who was fully God/Man without evil)
Originally posted by Backfire
Well, if you go by the bible, technically he's right. Hence the whole original sin thing.
According to the bible..human life begins at conception. The bible also states that all human life carries the genetic curse of "sin" and "death", due to Adam's original sin. Therefore upon the initial conception of life..all men are genetically coded with "sin" in their system, thus making them evil.
So one cell. One cell before or after the male and female pronuclei fuse?
No one's ever brought up to me that it mentions genetics in The Bible? If it is a "genetic curse" then "sin" would be in someone prior to their conception, in other words a person would have "sin" before they even existed as a single cell.
Originally posted by whobdamandog
Excellent...we're making progress..But as you said..it's an option that's available to a woman..correct? Particularly since she is the one who is carrying the "life"
So it would be her choice to decide whether or not the child lives or dies...correct?
So let me just put things in perspective a bit...
You essentially believe that...
[b]
Exploitation of a child's life..of any kind is wrong...(ie child porn)A woman has the right to choose whether or not a child lives or dies.
That the Creator of life, does not have the right..to choose whether or not a child lives or dies...
Your "God"..."Common Sense"...should tell you that there are many contradictions with his belief system referenced above...
Life's Creator...has more of a right than any person..male or female..to determine whether or not an individual should live or die. To state that a human has the right to make life/death decisions but an "omniscient" God does not is absurd, and once again demonstrates the the gradual decline of "common sense" in today's world. [/B]
Of course, for this argument to fly, we have to already believe and accept that life begins at conception, and that aborted fetuses that many don't even believe are actually alive yet, is in some way comparable to children who have already been born, are living and conscious. And, as I'm sure you know, not all people believe this.
Also, according to the bible and Christianity in general, abortions are immoral and sinful, yet God killing children who are already born is okay.
Point is, nearly every belief will have contradictions to some people, to you, mine is contradictory, to me, yours is.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
So one cell. One cell before or after the male and female pronuclei fuse?No one's ever brought up to me that it mentions genetics in The Bible? If it is a "genetic curse" then "sin" would be in someone prior to their conception, in other words a person would have "sin" before they even existed as a single cell.
Psalm 51:5Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity; And in sin did my mother conceive me.
Sin is present before conception, and is present within us as soon as we're conceived. The bible doesn't reference any specific genetic code, or DNA strand in which sin is linked to, however, sin and death are implied to be genetic conditions as well as punishments to man. They have been genetically passed on by the first man who sinned...Adam.
Romans 5:12Therefore just as sin entered the world through one man...and death through sin..and in this death came to all men, because all sinned..
Originally posted by BackFire
Of course, for this argument to fly, we have to already believe and accept that life begins at conception, and that aborted fetuses that many don't even believe are actually alive yet, is in some way comparable to children who have already been born, are living and conscious. And, as I'm sure you know, not all people believe this.Also, according to the bible and Christianity in general, abortions are immoral and sinful, yet God killing children who are already born is okay.
Point is, nearly every belief will have contradictions to some people, to you, mine is contradictory, to me, yours is.
More contradictions in your religion BF...
Doesn't your religion teach us that life evolved from a single cell? Why do we reference that single cell as "life's beginnings"..if it in fact wasn't "life at all? It was just a cell that started all life...right? At least that's how it goes according to your religion...
And at what stage do you consider a "fetus" to be a living being?
Is it 1st Trimester...2nd...3rd? I'm a bit confused. Your religion seems to acknowledge the first cell that existed as a "life"..however...it then tells me that something much more complex than a single cell..a human embryo..is not a life until its fully developed....
It then tells me that a woman who sleeps around and forgets to use birth control is qualified to make life/death decisions, however, the one who Created all life..is not...
The only contradictions that have been presented, are the one's given to you by the God you worship. Stating that every religion has a contradiction, is a contradiction unto itself. There is only one absolute "Truth" in life BF.
If this wasn't the case, then we would live in a world full of natural contradictions, however, as it is apparent in nature and throughout life..we do not.
Whob, my religion teaches nothing, I am not part of a religion. According to you, I am, but that is merely your opinion, one which I disagree with, yet respect.
I never said I don't believe a fetus is alive, I said "many people" don't. As I said prior, I'd never want anything to do with an abortion, myself, unless it was an absolute last resort. I said that I think it's a necessary option for women to have, because like it or not, people are going to do it, and I'd rather the money spent on abortion go to our government then some seedy criminal, who is the one that would be doing it if it was not allowed. What I DID say, is that I think there is a very relevent difference between aborting a fetus that is not concious, and killing children who have already been born out of vengeance for something they had nothing to do with. Simple as that.
Life begins at a different point for everyone, some think it begins with conception, some think it's at a particular trimester, some thing it's after birth, to be honest, I can see where they are all coming from, and acknowledge and respect all sides of the discussion.
the woman you are describing is misusing abortion, in my opinion. Few people think abortions should be done as a form as birth control, which she is doing in your analogy. I think women who do that are very pathetic and need to learn take responsibility for their actions. I think abortion should be used as a last resort, if the woman is raped, or if it's something out of her control that goes wrong and she has absolutely no means of taking care of a child, then I can see it as acceptable, for them. But again, it's not something I'd ever want to be a part of, whether or not it's alive now is irrelevent to me, the problem that I would have, is that it WOULD be alive at some point. Anyways, I'm babbling now.
I never said that every religion has a contradiction, I said that almost nearly ever religion will be contradictory to SOME people because we all hold different beliefs, and to one person something in Christianity may not make complete sense, while to another person, something in Aethiesm may not make sense. It's all relative, which is important to keep in mind when discussing something as personal and nonfactual as religion.
Originally posted by BackFire
Whob, my religion teaches nothing, I am not part of a religion. According to you, I am, but that is merely your opinion, one which I disagree with, yet respect.I never said I don't believe a fetus is alive, I said "many people" don't. As I said prior, I'd never want anything to do with an abortion, myself, unless it was an absolute last resort. I said that I think it's a necessary option for women to have, because like it or not, people are going to do it, and I'd rather the money spent on abortion go to our government then some seedy criminal, who is the one that would be doing it if it was not allowed. What I DID say, is that I think there is a very relevent difference between aborting a fetus that is not concious, and killing children who have already been born out of vengeance for something they had nothing to do with. Simple as that.
Life begins at a different point for everyone, some think it begins with conception, some think it's at a particular trimester, some thing it's after birth, to be honest, I can see where they are all coming from, and acknowledge and respect all sides of the discussion.
the woman you are describing is misusing abortion, in my opinion. Few people think abortions should be done as a form as birth control, which she is doing in your analogy. I think women who do that are very pathetic and need to learn take responsibility for their actions. I think abortion should be used as a last resort, if the woman is raped, or if it's something out of her control that goes wrong and she has absolutely no means of taking care of a child, then I can see it as acceptable, for them. But again, it's not something I'd ever want to be a part of, whether or not it's alive now is irrelevent to me, the problem that I would have, is that it WOULD be alive at some point. Anyways, I'm babbling now.
I never said that every religion has a contradiction, I said that almost nearly ever religion will be contradictory to SOME people because we all hold different beliefs, and to one person something in Christianity may not make complete sense, while to another person, something in Aethiesm may not make sense. It's all relative, which is important to keep in mind when discussing something as personal and nonfactual as religion. [/B]
But you do have to commit a sin to be a sinner, right ? How its possible to commit a sin in the womb ?
Anyway I believe in free will, I think that we make our choices, and its we who become evil. If God already make us good or evil then there will be a lot more contradictions in the bible.
I think that anyone good, actually needed to achieved that. Even Jesus, he had to "make a effort to be good", its was not predetermined that he would do like he did when he was born, if it was that way then there is no merit for him in what he did, since there would be no internal struggle to be won. He deserved to be what he is, when he proved himself in his deeds in life. He is like us, but we haven´t proved ourselves... yet.
Sorry my post didn't show up..here it is...
Originally posted by BackFire
Whob, my religion teaches nothing, I am not part of a religion. According to you, I am, but that is merely your opinion, one which I disagree with, yet respect.
Accepted. However..regardless of whether or not you agree, a religion is classified as any belief system followed with conscienteous zeal and devotion..Atheism falls well with in those guidlines. I believe many like to give it the name "Humanism"
I never said I don't believe a fetus is alive, I said "many people" don't. As I said prior, I'd never want anything to do with an abortion, myself, unless it was an absolute last resort. I said that I think it's a necessary option for women to have, because like it or not, people are going to do it, and I'd rather the money spent on abortion go to our government then some seedy criminal, who is the one that would be doing it if it was not allowed. What I DID say, is that I think there is a very relevent difference between aborting a fetus that is not concious, and killing children who have already been born out of vengeance for something they had nothing to do with. Simple as that.
The problem with your position is that it justifies the killing of human life..depending on one's ability to sustain themselves independent of another. It's quite a cruel position, and almost an animalistic view on human life. I could justify killing a cripple, or a person on a respirator based on that type of rationale. When you place a value on human life at any level..you degrade it. Simple as that.
As far as your other point goes..we've already debated God's authority to take human life, and I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this.
However let me leave you with a few questions that you can ask yourself.
If you create something for yourself, do you own it?
Does one have the right to destroy what they've created for themselves?
Does someone else have the right to destroy what they've created?
Life begins at a different point for everyone, some think it begins with conception, some think it's at a particular trimester, some thing it's after birth, to be honest, I can see where they are all coming from, and acknowledge and respect all sides of the discussion.the woman you are describing is misusing abortion, in my opinion. Few people think abortions should be done as a form as birth control, which she is doing in your analogy. I think women who do that are very pathetic and need to learn take responsibility for their actions. I think abortion should be used as a last resort, if the woman is raped, or if it's something out of her control that goes wrong and she has absolutely no means of taking care of a child, then I can see it as acceptable, for them. But again, it's not something I'd ever want to be a part of, whether or not it's alive now is irrelevent to me, the problem that I would have, is that it WOULD be alive at some point. Anyways, I'm babbling now.
I humbly respect your right to have an opinion...but I respectfully disagree. Everyone can't be right..there is only one Truth BF..we live in a universe full of absolutes. If they're were no absolute truths, then we would have no way of determining anything in life. Even science..has its absolutes.
I never said that every religion has a contradiction, I said that almost nearly ever religion will be contradictory to SOME people because we all hold different beliefs, and to one person something in Christianity may not make complete sense, while to another person, something in Aethiesm may not make sense. It's all relative, which is important to keep in mind when discussing something as personal and nonfactual as religion.
Regardless of an arguments relativity..it doesn't take away from the simple fact that only one of the arguments expresses the truth.
Originally posted by Atlantis001
But you do have to commit a sin to be a sinner, right ? How its possible to commit a sin in the womb ?
Do you have to paint your face brown to be an African American? Do you have to die your hair blonde to be white. These traits are passed on to us through our genetics..as is the condition known as "sin." Sin is essentially this.."Anything that acts against God"
We are conceived in a world that is "against God"..therefore..upon our birth..even as a child..we are considered "against god" or "sinful." How do we become a child of God again..simple..by believing in Christ as our Lord and Savior..its that simple.
Anyway I believe in free will, I think that we make our choices, and its we who become evil. If God already make us good or evil then there will be a lot more contradictions in the bible.
No contradictions in the bible..It's just that God is difficult to understand to us..because of the inherent evil within man. We are born evil..but we have a choice to be redeemed. Again..through belief in Christ as our Savior..we are made righteous.
I think that anyone good, actually needed to achieved that. Even Jesus, he had to "make a effort to be good", its was not predetermined that he would do like he did when he was born, if it was that way then there is no merit for him in what he did, since there would be no internal struggle to be won. He deserved to be what he is, when he proved himself in his deeds in life. He is like us, but we haven´t proved ourselves... yet.
Jesus was fully God..and fully man..however..he was not inherently evil..he wasn't conceived in sin. He was not concieved through a normal man and woman..but through the impregnation of a virgin..by God himself. That's why Jesus was not born inherently evil. However he was born into the flesh..which..as the bible states..is under the control of this world...and the one who the bible states is the "God of this world"...that being the Devil.
So being in the flesh..Jesus had all the temptations that we did..however, being fully God in the flesh..he was able to resist them all.