Also, you should probably keep in mind that those who are most against the idea are those who already mod Vs. forums on here. Who know what a pain they are. And, most importantly, know what sort of chaos they are without very strict rules. We're not simply shooting it down for no reason, we're shooting it down because we know, better than anyone else here, how well it would work. And that would be not very well at all.
See, I don't buy that. Here, observe:
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It's a versus forum that is strictly moderated and runs smoothly. If they can maintain it properly, surely someone here can.
I didn't want to post a link, but I really had no choice. All this talk about how versus forums are a travesty is just crazy, you guys are just as competent, even moreso, than the moderators at spacebattles.
What's the worst that can happen? As I said, the mod team here is better IMO than the spacebattles mod team.
Posting links to other forums is not allowed for any reason whatsoever.
And that is also a much smaller and less active forum than KMC.
And, as I said. You - same with all of the other posters who like to claim it could work here - do not have an understanding of what the idea would fully entail, and do not seem to want to listen to those who actually do.
Originally posted by UshgarakNo disrespect intended here whatsoever, Ush, but I didn't know KMC was an Oligarchy. I thought it was ran on the principle that the opinion(s) of everyone counted for something. Honestly, if the viewpoints of the eight or so global mods are all that really matters in the end, then why even have a suggestion thread that any member can partake in? Why don't you guys just discuss possible changes to the forums in the mod lounge and leave it at that?
Your idea was shot down because the globals don't like it. That is something you should respect.
Don't get me wrong, I understand full well the reasons that you and the other mods don't feel an everything versus forum would work, and they are perfectly logical reasons (of which I agree with for the most part.) I guess I was just surprised to see you lay out so bluntly the 'power' globals hold around here. /shrug
Here's what I am getting:
PMing Raz about forum changes is wrong, any suggestions for changes/additions should be discussed here.
The global moderators pretty much wield the power. If they say "drop it, no chance of it, change subject" we must obey or be banned. Either way the subject is dropped and Raz never hears of it. This is fine, I have no problem with this, I would just like to know if it that's how it works. Like if Raz is presented with an idea that he thinks will work, and the globals are all against it, does he endorse the idea, or go with what the globals say?
On one hand I am told to discuss ideas for the forum here, to not contact Raz personally on it. On the other, I am being told to drop an idea I have (and that some others are backing me on), to accept that the Globals have "shot it down." That tells me that the Globals made the call, that Raz has no say in it. See why I am confused? It's like
Even when shown a perfect example of a versus forum that works fine, and has tons of traffic (It is a busier website than KMC at the moment, I've made threads there and they were buried two pages back in a matter of hours), the global mods here still say it will not work here. Question: Why does it work fine there, but not here? The moderators are more than capable , even moreso than the ones at the other site, there is no doubt about that.
Peach, Ush, Rexxx, I am NOT trying to be insubordinate here, I am not trying to cause trouble, I just need some clarification, for future reference. I've been here a long time and have over 110,000 posts and have never been banned because I know when to draw the line. For some reason you guys think I am going out of my way to cause waves. I can assure you that is not the case.
Peach, remember that pm I sent you a month or so ago? Nothing has changed, and nothing will, I still hold the same stance, just so you know.
Originally posted by Peach
No online forum is a democracy. The sooner people get used to that idea, the better.Now, can we drop that topic before some idiot comes in with the tired (and completely wrong) comparisons to Nazis again?
Well, no online forum is a pure democracy, but, yes, many forums have democratic processes, including this one.
A pure democratic board is a bad idea, like you are indicating. What happens if a majority of KMC members decided they didn't like the comic book forums and wanted them gone? That'd be a huge chunk of KMC traffic, gone, through a voting process. That would be silly and counter-productive.
But on the other end, what happens when the members are never listened to and they are constantly oppressed? The board will lose it's members, all the same (if you, of course, control for market changes in internet participation.)
That last point makes me curious: has anyone done an analysis of internet forums? Do we fall within one standard deviation of the "market", as far as activity decline goes?
Originally posted by dadudemonI've not done any statistical research but from personal experience we are seeing a greater hit than most in terms of traffic. This may have nothing to do with the forums themselves though. It might simply be because the main site is losing traffic because it's kind of crap.
Well, no online forum is a pure democracy, but, yes, many forums have democratic processes, including this one.A pure democratic board is a bad idea, like you are indicating. What happens if a majority of KMC members decided they didn't like the comic book forums and wanted them gone? That'd be a huge chunk of KMC traffic, gone, through a voting process. That would be silly and counter-productive.
But on the other end, what happens when the members are never listened to and they are constantly oppressed? The board will lose it's members, all the same (if you, of course, control for market changes in internet participation.)
That last point makes me curious: has anyone done an analysis of internet forums? Do we fall within one standard deviation of the "market", as far as activity decline goes?
I mean... who uses it? IMDb is much better.
RJ, you were told to knock it off with the "anything vs forum" suggestion because you kept bringing it up repeatedly. We get it. It's a suggestion for something you'd like to see. When you repeat the same suggestion so many times, then other ones get passed over. It's frustrating for everyone around. Especially when it was something that Raz said in the past wouldn't be on KMC - I know before he had another project in the works, but I don't know what's happened with that.
And PMing him about it when everyone can read it in here is just bordering on harassing him with it.
And yes, for a suggestions like adding/changing forums, while it is usually something brought up by and interest looked for by the members, us mods do have a fairly large say in it as well. After all, we are the ones who moderate and run the forums, after all. It isn't that we can't mod a forum like that. It's that, considering what we know of these forums, the members, and the Vs. forums in particular, no one is really willing to take on such a thing, because it'll be more trouble than it's worth. A forum like that would by definition require laxer rules than the other Vs. forums, which can be trouble enough. And most of us remember when the existing ones had less strict rules and the mess and chaos they were. It's simply an invitation for trouble.
Originally posted by Peach
RJ, you were told to knock it off with the "anything vs forum" suggestion because you kept bringing it up repeatedly. We get it. It's a suggestion for something you'd like to see. When you repeat the same suggestion so many times, then other ones get passed over. It's frustrating for everyone around. Especially when it was something that Raz said in the past wouldn't be on KMC - I know before he had another project in the works, but I don't know what's happened with that.And PMing him about it when everyone can read it in here is just bordering on harassing him with it.
And yes, for a suggestions like adding/changing forums, while it is usually something brought up by and interest looked for by the members, us mods do have a fairly large say in it as well. After all, we are the ones who moderate and run the forums, after all. It isn't that we can't mod a forum like that. It's that, considering what we know of these forums, the members, and the Vs. forums in particular, no one is really willing to take on such a thing, because it'll be more trouble than it's worth. A forum like that would by definition require laxer rules than the other Vs. forums, which can be trouble enough. And most of us remember when the existing ones had less strict rules and the mess and chaos they were. It's simply an invitation for trouble.
Well, there are others here that bring it up, I'm not the only one, and I still think that if it works at another forum with less capable mods, it will work here. You won't hear about it from me again.
I appreciate your objectivity.
Originally posted by Galan007
No disrespect intended here whatsoever, Ush, but I didn't know KMC was an Oligarchy. I thought it was ran on the principle that the opinion(s) of everyone counted for something. Honestly, if the viewpoints of the eight or so global mods are all that really matters in the end, then why even have a suggestion thread that any member can partake in? Why don't you guys just discuss possible changes to the forums in the mod lounge and leave it at that?Don't get me wrong, I understand full well the reasons that you and the other mods don't feel an everything versus forum would work, and they are perfectly logical reasons (of which I agree with for the most part.) I guess I was just surprised to see you lay out so bluntly the 'power' globals hold around here. /shrug
It is simple enough. You SUGGEST things here for the powers that be to think on them. Sometimes the answer is yes. In this case, it has been thought on and the answer is no. The idea was for people to bring suggestions... just that.
You should not be surprised that when the same thing has been suggested- often by the same people- a dozen times or more and the answer is 'no' that there is aggravation when it gets brought up yet again, wasting everyone's time.
Raz HAS heard and discussed the vs. forum idea- several times. Your objections make not the least bit of sense, RJ. You are simply being tiresome and intentionally troublesome. I am going to hold you to not hearing about it again.
I am going to give out warnings to anyone else who posts in here off-topic again. Can we have new suggestions in posts now please? If you don't have a suggestion, please do not post.
Originally posted by PeachJust because there is no precedent does not mean it is a bad Idea.
[B]No online forum is a democracy. The sooner people get used to that idea, the better.
Whenever someone complains that they aren't happy with current mods/leadership, it seems like someone is quick to rush in with the "This is not a democracy" stamp.
Im not going so far as to start calling people nazis and whatnot, but it's obvious to me that the will of the governed should carry a little more weight.
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch--Benjamin Franklin
The last thing I'd want to have in this board is democracy anyway. In my perfect dream world: Constitutional republic all the way. The representatives (mods) would be picked by the people (members) and would be bound by their own constitution.
Also, I was in a board for my old JKA clan in which all the mods were voted in and had 1 year terms. It actually worked pretty well until the game ate lack of multi-player activity death. It's a pretty broad assumption to make that "NO WEB BOARD" is a democracy.
That's a warning to you for flagrantly ignoring what I just said. Considering your record, any more warnings will be a permanent ban.
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Just a note to all- comparisons with other boards don't really get us anywhere. The comparisons with countries and rulers are facile- mods at a forum are more like referees at a sporting match.
This place is run like it is run and you agreed to that when you signed up here. If you don't like it, you are at liberty to use other boards more to your liking.
Originally posted by Peach
No online forum is a democracy. The sooner people get used to that idea, the better.Now, can we drop that topic before some idiot comes in with the tired (and completely wrong) comparisons to Nazis again?
I am not an idiot ermm (I have quotes from you defending that! I do keep most the quotes I like from KMC huzzah!)
And to defend that point from awhile ago, if we are not a democracy, what are we? A Dictatorship? Yes, most forum's do fall under that cloud. Also, to say that no online forum is a democracy is false. I am currently a member in quite a few forum's that are quite big, have moderators voted in through a process of their seniority, knowledge and standing, and changes to the community are generally voted upon. (Granted some things are just changed by the main Admin, who had to get things done). I'm not saying that there should be any change to that type of forum here, I'm just saying that it exists.
I may not be posting very often anymore, mainly because most of my friends have moved on and I contact them through Facebook or other means, but I can tell you that I still watch the forum on a daily and keep up with the happenings. You know what I see being the biggest change within the last few months to year? The Global Moderating staff has changed, and you know what the reverse effect to that is? KMC's traffic is down ridiculously in numbers. Old members are leaving while having their friends follow, and new members aren't sticking around. And let me clarify what I mean by change: It seems that within the last few months to year, several moderators have just given up caring about the forum, and several others have become so heavy handed that their comparison to Nazis while quite outlandish, is the only fair comparison.
Ushgarak, I'll use you as a prime example because you are the post above me. You (As always, so at least you're consistent) have always been a heavy handed Mod. You're comparison to referees is quite correct. However, in knowing sports and how they are officiated, you'd also know that it isn't so black and white. In sports, there is a huge side to making judgment calls. While it's hard to compare sports vs a forum side by side, well, impossible really, you as a moderating staff need to be able to make judgment calls for the forum as a whole as well. I understand that it's a hard job, but you need to understand that while your main forum (RPing Forum) may still be consistently an active forum, the site as a whole is taking a huge hit to active posters and if you don't see it, you're blind. (And I would like to point out, it looks as if you and Lana are trying to run 54 Forums in a forum (KMC) by yourselves, which just isn't viable for a forum of this size.)
Also, just as a little tidbit of information as well. This is a suggestion thread, meaning it is also an opinion thread. Suggestions are generally based on opinion. Let's take a look at the definition of opinion: "An opinion is a subjective statement or thought about an issue or topic, and is the result of emotion or interpretation of facts." If I want to suggest a really dumb idea, or something that I have the opinion is a great idea for this forum, (Tired Hikers Pad), that is my right to make the suggestion, in this thread, to try and convince Raz that it would be a good decision for the forum. Giving warnings out and banning members because they are defending their opinions and suggestions in this thread is absurd, just because it's a suggestion a global moderator doesn't agree with. (Granted it's a viable idea, and not some idiot who wants to make the "******** Palace Forum."😉 Even look at Raz's first message of this thread.
Originally posted by Raz
Please use this thread to post any suggestions/ideas/improvements you have for the forums.
It doesn't say.
Originally posted by Raz
Please use this thread to post any suggestions/ideas/improvements you have for the forums... Unless it goes against the opinions of a global moderator and how they view the forum in their eyes.
While this is my suggestion and opinion for this thread, my ending statement and suggestion will go towards the moderating staff. Take a step back and relax on some issues. The forum is meant to be an entertaining escape for everyone. Being so heavy handed and black and white brings the forum down as a whole. Stop retaliating against posters who have a different opinion with you, and like to argue their point. If they're not out openly bashing members, or being detrimental to the forum, relax, this isn't the Israel Army or 1940's Nazi Germany.
(I'd also like to point out that this is in no way, shape or form, an attack on the moderators but merely a suggestion/opinion. I have come to know a majority of the moderators on KMC and think very highly of each one as both a contributor to this website, and friend on and off it.)
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Just a note to all- comparisons with other boards don't really get us anywhere. The comparisons with countries and rulers are facile- mods at a forum are more like referees at a sporting match.
Lol, the one group of people perhaps more despised than rulers/politicians 😛
That's an official warning to you too, VV. That was in no way a constructive post and, again, we are entitled to tell people to move on from suggesting ideas that have already been rejected many times. Your definition of the way we are acting is an outright untruth. You are mistaken if you think you are posting in a reasonable manner.
There will be bans for those that defy these warnings.