corn, just remember all Jedi's are learning new things. We all know how powerful Dooku is and after yoda deflected and absorbed his lightning attacks he says "much to LEARN you still have". this means yoda is telling Dooku (in his own rite quite powerful Jedi/Sith) he still has a lot of things to learn. so i guess even if you become a Jedi Knight or Master you will still learn new things.
ive always thought that padawans learn the basics of the Force from their master. after graduating from that they will need to learn new more powerful skills.
Corn, when Anakin refers to Obi as his old master, that doesn't mean that Obi is a Jedi Master, per se--it simply means that Obi was the one who teached him. Jedi ranking goes Padawan, Knight, and Master, and I'm 90% sure that Knights are given the rights to teach as well--I think you're looking into that particular part too much.
Originally posted by §pearhead
Corn, when Anakin refers to Obi as his old master, that doesn't mean that Obi is a Jedi Master, per se--it simply means that Obi was the one who teached him. Jedi ranking goes Padawan, Knight, and Master, and I'm 90% sure that Knights are given the rights to teach as well--I think you're looking into that particular part too much.
But Vader states : "... I was but the learner..." This clearly signifies that he was NOT a Jedi when he parted ways with OWK.
It could not be any more plainly stated than that.
corn
If your so caught up on that one little line, technically he isn't saying he was a padawan learner as far as i can tell, he says "i was but THE learner" the way i see it, he is talking about the relationship between himself and obi-wan and ofcourse as you said before, the prequels were decades away when that statement is made, it still suggests a relationship between them and still suggests that anakin sees obi-wan as being his master, ofcourse, until that moment.
the answer is simple.
first picture obiwan, a jedi night, asking yoda for guidance on how to properly train anakin...
now picture quigon, a jedi master asking yoda and mace for PERMISSION to train anakin.
there is a heirarchy in the jedi order, so you have someone to LEARN from even after you are knighted, and even after you become a master.
anakin will be a knight in epIII and obiwan will be a master. therefore, anakin will still be of a lower rank than kenobi...so he will still have to answer to him and yes...learn from him.
when vader becomes a sith, he sees the jedi as weak and flawed, and himself as all-powerful...so in his own mind, kenobi is weaker, and vader is the true master.
I disagree. I know it's just one little line in ANH, but it's a pretty straightforward line. "... I was BUT THE LEARNER..." As I stated before, he didn't say "I was but a Jedi Knight", he said he was just a learner. So why in the prequels are ONLY Padawans referred to as learners? Because they are the only learners!
When you become a Jedi Knight, you are no longer a learner. You no longer have a "Master" who is your teacher and trainer.
Someone stated earlier that there is a heirarchy in the Star Wars universe. That's true: there is a Padawan Learner, and a Master. When Darth Vader met up with OWK again in ANH, he wanted Kenobi to know that he was no longer the learner, that HE was now the Master.
This unequivocally signifies that when Vader left Kenobi (at least in Lucas' ORIGINAL vision in 1977), he was NOT a Jedi, but was still a learner.
Come on, people! Lucas completely forked things up here!
corn
As a follow up to my last post, in regards to the little mistakes and errors on the part of Lucas, I have to say that it is difficult to forego all that I knew in relation to the OT.
For instance, it was VERY difficult for me to swallow the whole Quigon Jinn story. We all know there is no reference to Jinn in ANY of the OT films. That's simply because, in Lucas' mind in '77 '80 and '83, Jinn did not exist. Kenobi stated that Yoda was "... the Jedi Master who instructed me." Later, at Dagobah, when Yoda was complaining about Luke, Kenobi's ghost stated, "Was I any different when you taught me?"
So, for many years, it was just common knowledge that at some point in the far past, Yoda was the one who taught Kenobi to use the force and to become a Jedi.
But EI comes out, and we find out that Quigon is actually the one who trained Kenobi up to the trials. So Lucas comes up with this lame idea that Yoda teaches ALL young Padawans up to a certain age.
What I get is that Lucas comes up with these flashy stories, puts them together, then turns around and says, "Oh, wait, that doesn't work with the original story. Maybe we could get around it if we added this little bit in..." Flash over style and story.
Anakin should NOT become a Jedi. According to Vader's statement in ANH, he was still a learner when he separated from Kenobi. Frankly, I think it would be BETTER if did not become a Jedi. Think of the anger that Anakin would feel due to not achieving the goal of Jedi Knight. A goal that he has spent his entire life trying to achieve. A goal that he was separated from his mother to achieve, and it ultimately cost her life. Had Anakin never been taken away to be a Jedi, perhaps she would still be alive. I couldn't imagine a more devastating event that could create the anger in Anakin that leads him to destroy the Jedi.
This is just how it appears to me.
corn
nope, can't agree there.
there are more ranks than padawan and master.
it goes:
padawan>jedi knight>jedi master>jedi council member
just because you become a knight, you are not yet(or ever) independant.
"when i left you, i was but the learner" that can't be translated so literally.
a padawan learns from his master, a knight learns from jedi masters, masters
learn from the council. no jedi is independant. even yoda has to consult with his peers.
corn,
yoda DID instruct kenobi, when he was a youngling.
before a master takes on a padawan, that padawan must learn the
basics from yoda. as you see in ANH, kenobi gives luke the EXACT same training on the Millenium Falcon as we see with the younglings.
EDIT (forgot to finish my point)
when luke was trained by kenobi, he was completely new to the force,
as were the younglings. so, technically, he was a youngling at that point (ANH) obiwan was probably comparing luke to when HE was new to it as well, however he was a small child.
but age wasnt the issue, it was knowledge of the force that was the issue.
Originally posted by PVS
nope, can't agree there.there are more ranks than padawan and master.
it goes:
padawan>jedi knight>jedi master>jedi council member
just because you become a knight, you are not yet(or ever) independant.
"when i left you, i was but the learner" that can't be translated so literally.
Ok, I wasn't saying that was the ONLY rank. I was saying that Padawan is the ONLY rank that is referred to as "learner". And that is precisely why the quote "... I was but the learner..." can be translated so literally.
Also, I must assume that ANY Jedi is referred to as "master". Palpatine refers to Kenobi as "Master Kenobi" in AOTC, even though he is only a Jedi Knight, not a Jedi Master. So, if Anakin does indeed become a Jedi Knight, then he would be "Master Skywalker". There again, what would be the point of him telling Kenobi in ANH that when he left he was a learner, now he is the master? He was already a master when he became a Jedi!
You see how these things just don't work?
corn
p.s., I'm having LOADS of fun with this. 😉
oh ok, i think i found mr. lucas's loop hole.
here it is: "I have been waiting for you Obi-Wan. The circle is now complete. When I left you I was but a learner. Now I am the master."
it does NOT say: When I [last saw you] I was but a learner. Now I am the master.
nor does it say [turned against you] [turned evil]
so he was referring to the time when he was still good, not the time he betrayed the jedi.
so, when anakin becomes a knight, kenobi will no longer be his master.
it is then that the student LEAVES the master.
some take it too serious here 😛
up to my knowledge, a Jedi Knight is working on his own; he passed the tests, he is ready... how else can someone have a padawan if they gotta watch out for knights too? doesn't make sense, padawans are the only learners there are
and y'know what... that's all besides the point here
it is official that Anakin will be (LIKE OB1) a Jedi Knight in EpIII, that's all there is to it
Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
not if you look at it "from a certain point of view" 😛 what I mean by this is Anakin and Obi-Wan have always seemed to have this relationship where Obi-Wan seems to almost see himself "above" Anakin so to speak. And I dont mean literally as in the padawan/master sense. In alot of ways in ATOC he talks down to Anakin alot. Now if I were Anakin that would seriously rankle me after awhile. Perhaps this is what Vader is referring to in ROTJ.
I belive the line was "When I left you I was but the learner, now I am the Master."
And Anakin IS still the learner come Episode III because a Jedi Master is ranked higher than a Jedi Knight. (i.e. Mace Windu is higher than Obi-Wan) And there is even a ranking among Jedi Masters as Yoda is higher than Mace Windu.