The Official Symbiote Thread

Originally posted by Symbiotica
One could make a strong argument for either school of thought, really. Why would we even consider it to be a parasite? Because it's far from certain, at least to me, that these creatures do NOT have a detrimental effect on the cerebral function of the host. And then you have the issue of the longer the host wears the symbiote, the crazier they seem to get. They're not just unbalanced, they become progressively MORE unbalanced. Kasady's not any healthier these days.... and Brock thinks he can destroy the FF and Spidey and Nick Fury and SHIELD and who knows what-all with symbiote #1, from what we can see. How sane is that? Errr.... not

And Kasady is just totally consumed with delusions of every kind of grandeur. This is the guy who wants to put the blocks to both Venom and Spidey on home-plate at Yankee Stadium, or whatever. How sane is that? not

They do seem to have differing effects and functions re the host. Personally, I think it would be great to have Toxin start out being all civic-minded and all that, only to have the symbiote warp his every impulse and end up twisting his mind beyond all recognition. After all, his symbiote is the offspring of Kasady's, by far the most evil and virulent we've yet seen.

Yeah.... Toxin should be driven to acts of unspeakable depravity. 😈 Sounds like a plan. That's what makes these things so dangerous - you can never be quite sure what they'll do.

Enhanced strength and agility and the power to stave of death PLUS web-swinging, vs. mental unbalance - that's a potent cocktail. I still say this sounds more like symbiosis than parasitism. Those are not exactly negligible benefits listed there.

I like your analysis. What, however, is the nature/cause of the symbiote-inspired madness?

1) Certain or all symbiotes are malicious by nature and deliberately alter their host's brain chemistry to cause insanity for the symbiote's own ends.
2) The madness is entirely a product of the human's psyche. They suddenly acquire power but not the Spiderman-esqe sense of responsibility. Like so many supervillans, they loose it without something to ground them into the real world. Case in point: when Venom was 'Lethal Protecting', he was more balanced then when he was just out to kill Spiderman. Once he stopped his pseudo-hero gig however, he went way off the deep end.
3) The psychosis is a result of the symbiote 'improving' the host, including the brain. The deepening madness might be long-term but passing: One day after Brock and the symbiote are reunited, he might improve and find himself with superhuman intelligence or some other brain-related 'improvement'. It might also be the symbiotes attempting to improve the human host according to a (incompatible) genetic template for the original host species.
4) The problem is the result of the extented and incredibly intimate contact between a human and alien consciousness. The two minds don't always work out together. Or they do and the result is something entirely new and perfectly functional by its own standards, but completely whacked out by ours.
5) Or prolonged bonding slowly whittles away the host's control over the symbiote. With the host's ability to restrain the symbiote's violence tendencies being reduced, the alien has greater leeway to be destructive.

[email protected]

All good points CK. What about the allegations that the symbiote "pushes the host to be more violent." Would that qualify as becoming unbalanced or as a survival mechanism?

Originally posted by Symbiotica
Yeah, you pretty much killed it.

Anytime someone starts with the Religious Right crap, that pretty much ends the fun. You can keep that repressive, skirt-hems-past-your-knees, psalm-singin', chastity-belt-wearin', ban-all-birth-control crap right OVER THERE with you.

I've had more than my fill of that as a kid and I am not tolerating it now. It's unsymbiotic and yeah..... you killed the conversation deader than Jacob Marley, congrats and go re-read Revelations.

No... re-read *Proverbs*, because I know you're about to say a bunch of counterproductive things and you need a little wisdom right about now. Down With Extremism, whether it be Muslim, Christian, or any old kind at all. Don't bother flaming me because we're not going to argue about it. I have had enough of you religious maniacs.

Originally posted by CK
4) The problem is the result of the extented and incredibly intimate contact between a human and alien consciousness. The two minds don't always work out together. Or they do and the result is something entirely new and perfectly functional by its own standards, but completely whacked out by ours.

Who says alien creatures would share our ideas of right and wrong?

Are the xenomorphs in "Alien" bad, evil creatures? Or are they animals, following their own Manifest Destiny free from "conscience or delusions of morality" as Ash so aptly said?

Can non-human life forms be "evil"?

Are the xenomorphs self-aware in the same manner you and I are? Are the symbiotes? As in, consciously choosing to perform right or wrong?

We know the answer to none of these questions.

I like a little mystery mixed in with all this. I think it's cool we DON'T know everything. But IMO the explaination that makes the most sense is, these symbiotic organisms [esp. after a while] work on the brain both chemically and psychologically. The wearer *knows* they are no longer exactly human. So why should they be bound by human morality? And the very structure of the brain may begin to alter in response to the invasion of this alien tissue and any hormones it may be secreting.

Then the symbiote is using the host to further its own aims anyways, and things go downhill from there. What are its requirements? We don't really know.

I've said more than enough, because I may delve further into these topics in future fan-fictions.

Next_Venom: The symbiote encouraging the host to be more violent in the 'voice in the head' style is a good possibility.

Symbiotica: I wasn't trying to say the anything about the alien and rigt and wrong. I was talking about perceptions.

Originally posted by CKayote
4) The problem is the result of the extented and incredibly intimate contact between a human and alien consciousness. The two minds don't always work out together. Or they do and the result is something entirely new and perfectly functional by its own standards, but completely whacked out by ours.
[email protected]

I meant that the new merged lifeform would be insane by our human standards, but by hypothetical standards for human/alien fusion, it might be "sane". It's all about who judges sanity.

But on the topic: I agree that Xenomorphs lack morality. But they're just simple animals. Symbiotes are sapient. Meaning a culture of somekind.

Which is important because in the long-run "right" and "wrong" are basicly just the collected taboos and practices of a culture. The "right" thing to do is something that helps the smooth function of society, and the "wrong" thing to do is something that disrupts functioning society.

The symbiotes seem to have at least one "cultural" practice we're aware of: Not caring about one's offspring. I'm assuming there are others, and that there will be taboos and such to go with them.

I think the symbiotes are self-aware and make choices about "right" and "wrong" while they're not bonded with a host. Once linked, they're self-awareness is lessened (the same is true for the host).

*Pauses*
I hope I'm not treading on your future fan-fic material.

Anyway, do you know what Fever's been up to these days? I haven't seen her around here in a while.

[email protected]

Originally posted by Symbiotica
Yeah, you pretty much killed it.

Anytime someone starts with the Religious Right crap, that pretty much ends the fun. You can keep that repressive, skirt-hems-past-your-knees, psalm-singin', chastity-belt-wearin', ban-all-birth-control crap right OVER THERE with you.

I've had more than my fill of that as a kid and I am not tolerating it now. It's unsymbiotic and yeah..... you killed the conversation deader than Jacob Marley, congrats and go re-read Revelations.

No... re-read *Proverbs*, because I know you're about to say a bunch of counterproductive things and you need a little wisdom right about now. Down With Extremism, whether it be Muslim, Christian, or any old kind at all. Don't bother flaming me because we're not going to argue about it. I have had enough of you religious maniacs.

Originally posted by Next Venom_girl
All good points CK. What about the allegations that the symbiote "pushes the host to be more violent." Would that qualify as becoming unbalanced or as a survival mechanism?

Well said.

...

Religious maniacs? *Snorts.* Your idiocy is astounding. Do you even KNOW my views? Have you ever visited the Religion Forum? Or are you posting out of sheer ignorance that, if it were the other way around--that is, if I were attacking a leftist extremist--would not be tolerated?

And you DO realize that I didn't start in with any "Religious Right" crap to begin with? All I was complaining about was the way all Christians were being portrayed and how it was hypocritical.

YOU spazzed out. YOU overreacted. YOU support a form of intolerance that is just as bad--but socially acceptable--as the religious extremists.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyhow, I believe the symbiotes feed off of violence, rage, hatred and so they stimulate the amygdala and disrupt the prefrontal lobes from controlling the host's emotions.

Guys! Let's end the religion discussion before everyone feelings are hurt further and Paola yells at us.

[email protected]

Originally posted by CKayote
Guys! Let's end the religion discussion before everyone feelings are hurt further and Paola yells at us.

[email protected]

Originally posted by CKayote
[B]Next_Venom: The symbiote encouraging the host to be more violent in the 'voice in the head' style is a good possibility.

Symbiotica: I wasn't trying to say the anything about the alien and rigt and wrong. I was talking about perceptions.

But on the topic: I agree that Xenomorphs lack morality. But they're just simple animals. Symbiotes are sapient. Meaning a culture of somekind.

Or it may also have something to do with the symbiote trying to push the host into confrontational situations so that they can have enough to eat (i.e. adreniline, brains, etc).

That's a really good explanation! I didn't think about the symbiote's survival reflexes. I was looking at it from the host's perspective. Damn anthrocentrism!

[email protected]

What the **** is going on here?

Originally posted by Robo-Chocobo
What the **** is going on here?

Fece: "Religious maniacs? *Snorts.* Your idiocy is astounding. Do you even KNOW my views? Have you ever visited the Religion Forum?"

You know what? I got nothing to prove to you about my "religious knowledge," I've been dealing with "Christian" intolerance/dogma probably before you hit 6th grade.

I do not care about you, nor do I care about your "views." I find your tone offensive - nothing new there, 90% of "Christians" run around out here like the Spawn of Satan anyways - and here you go proving me right yet again. You people claim to espouse the teachings of Christ, yet you act more like the Antichrist.

I'm settling your hash right now by adding you to my Ignore list. I'm done. Take your religious shoulder-chip and go annoy someone else with it. I do not -have- to put up with your crap, and I have no intention of doing so.

Try learning something about the art of influencing people. I can promise you name-calling is going to get you nowhere in human relations - except shoved out the door, like I'm doing to you right now. *SLAM*
**************************************************

Now, where were we....?

My point about "right" and "wrong" was this: how do we know what right and wrong are to alien creatures, irregardless of their personal choices? perhaps their evil is our good, and our good their evil.

Do beings from other planets have our values-system? I doubt it. This is why if I ever see an alien spacecraft touching down in the back yard, i am going to run like Hell 😈

Many creatures on earth do not nurture their offspring, that's not an unusual trait.

Originally posted by Symbiotica
Fece: "Religious maniacs? *Snorts.* Your idiocy is astounding. Do you even KNOW my views? Have you ever visited the Religion Forum?"

You know what? I got nothing to prove to you about my "religious knowledge," I've been dealing with "Christian" intolerance/dogma probably before you hit 6th grade.

I do not care about you, nor do I care about your "views." I find your tone offensive - nothing new there, 90% of "Christians" run around out here like the Spawn of Satan anyways - and here you go proving me right yet again. You people claim to espouse the teachings of Christ, yet you act more like the Antichrist.

I'm settling your hash right now by adding you to my Ignore list. I'm done. Take your religious shoulder-chip and go annoy someone else with it. I do not -have- to put up with your crap, and I have no intention of doing so.

Try learning something about the art of influencing people. I can promise you name-calling is going to get you nowhere in human relations - except shoved out the door, like I'm doing to you right now. *SLAM*
**************************************************

Now, where were we....?

My point about "right" and "wrong" was this: how do we know what right and wrong are to alien creatures, irregardless of their personal choices? perhaps their evil is our good, and our good their evil.

Do beings from other planets have our values-system? I doubt it. This is why if I ever see an alien spacecraft touching down in the back yard, i am going to run like Hell 😈

Many creatures on earth do not nurture their offspring, that's not an unusual trait.

I had no chip on my shoulder, save for the fact that I was correcting you on your use of the term 'symbiosis' in terms of its definition.

Frankly, I don't care if you can read this or not. You might decide to see what I've written or you might not.

The bottom line is this: you are a hate-filled, hypocritical person whose own vehemence blinds her from the truth, the truth of her own behavior and the truth of Christianity (the stuff NOT leapt upon by the media, the stuff NOT from a few extremist groups). Your intolerance saddens me and fills me with bitter laughter.

Oh, fever red, how I miss you...

Guys! Please! Paola is watching! I do not want us to have to start a new thread!

[email protected]

Originally posted by CKayote
Guys! Please! Paola is watching! I do not want us to have to start a new thread!

[email protected]

Topic?

I guess if one has nothing to contribute to the topic, all one can do is attempt to change the subject and scream insults in the name of Christ 😈 It's a tactic in use since before the Inquisition; and we all know how well that turned out... because thinking people tend to reject dictatorships, even if it takes them about a hundred years to do it.

We *were* discussing people's theories about why symbiotes and the people who wear them do what they do, and the moral ramifications thereof.

[Personally i find it fun to imagine what say.... Carnage would do to someone who dared insult him in the name of Christ. In fact I think I'm gonna work that happy thought into my next fan-fic. Do Carnage and religious repression mix well? bwa-hahahahahaha I doubt it.]

Originally posted by FeceMan
Symbiosis = two organisms living together where one or both organisms benefits.

Mutualism = form of symbiosis in which both organisms benefit from the relationship.

Commensalism = form of symbiosis in which one organism benefits and the other organism is neither helped nor harmed from the relationship.

Parasitism = form of symbiosis in which one organism benefits and the other organism is harmed from the relationship.

FeceMan knows his biology. Don't mess.

What needs to happen is all the different versions need to be separated, and discussed from there. I come to the conclusion of these versions: Secret Wars (SW), Earth X (EX), Tsunami [2004] (T, clone is TC), Marvel Knights (MK), Ultimate (U), Planet of the Symbiotes (PotS), The Cartoon (TT), The 90s Venom miniseries I refer as SW, if I missed one feel free to mention it. SW is the well known and loved version. I don’t have much experience with the EX, MK, and U versions myself so I cannot inform upon these topics. T and TC may be part of SW, they may not. I like to think of them as if they are same goes for the PotS. My reasoning for this is that the Beyonder took pieces of all the worlds in the universe to create the battlefield, the machine which imprisoned the Symbiote was what Parker used as the “costume machine,” that was taken as part of the world seen in PotS. Sorry for blowing your theory to hell, Orange, it’s a good one. When I scan the portions of the comics to back up my conception of all this I’ll post links. The TT Symbiote appears to be a cross between the original and the rest of the race from PotS. I believe we were on the topic of whether the Symbiotes had genetic memory or not. Awhile back a few of us rambled about the whole genetic memory topic, and concluded that it is not true genetic memory, however a chosen memory of the parent symbiote to the child, the past memories of all that came before plus the chosen experiences of the parent, not all. That’s why Carnage does not know the identities of Spider-Man and family.

Originally posted by Symbiotica
I guess if one has nothing to contribute to the topic, all one can do is attempt to change the subject and scream insults in the name of Christ 😈 It's a tactic in use since before the Inquisition; and we all know how well that turned out... because thinking people tend to reject dictatorships, even if it takes them about a hundred years to do it.

We *were* discussing people's theories about why symbiotes and the people who wear them do what they do, and the moral ramifications thereof.

[Personally i find it fun to imagine what say.... Carnage would do to someone who dared insult him in the name of Christ. In fact I think I'm gonna work that happy thought into my next fan-fic. Do Carnage and religious repression mix well? bwa-hahahahahaha I doubt it.]

By the way, when did I ever invoke Christ's name? Oh, yes, that's right...I didn't. Symbiotica is one of the most hateful, bigoted, and narrow-minded people I have EVER met in ANY Internet forum, aside from Sniper_sloth...and he was banned.

Yes, scibott, I know; I'm a Grammar Nazi. Also, the reason the argument started was because I was making amends for my belligerent posting from earlier and she completely flipped out. Thus, I retaliated with force and logic. Apparently she cannot cope with these two tactics, so she put me on ignore.

Scibott: "you’re both intelligent people that is why I don't understand why you would fight over religious mythology in the first place."

He's absolutely free to espouse whatever "religious mythology" he wants; however I am not bound by law to affirm his choice. If people want to bind themselves to some set of rules from 2000+ years ago, fine. They should take that to a religious forum, where it's not a disruption of topic. What the Hell does his fury over his religion being dissed have to do with a discussion on symbiotes?! I admit, I'm clueless about that aspect of things. WTF?! Does anyone here care about that?! I quite honestly don't, esp. when coupled with such rudeness!

I am also not obliged to hand out positive responses when someone rudely tells me something that is not borne out by actual fact: the FACT is, there IS a difference between parasitism and symbiosis. If there was not, we would not have two separate words for them. I am not budging on that point.

And once again, with that said, you have an interesting theory going on there, but me personally.... I do not regard the cartoon as canonical in any way, shape or form, so I completely disregard anything it might have to say about the issue at hand. In fact I regard it as actually harmful since it distorts many relationships - for instance, Dormammu has zilch to do with Carnage... and saying otherwise just makes me 🙄 The Venom symbiote has nothing to do with Man-Wolf. Nor do I want it to. Just speaking in general, not saying that's what you really think.

I can't take that seriously. So me, I tend to stick pretty close to the Secret Wars version.