Is Ghandi in Hell?

Leave a child isolated on a desert island and see how he turns out? An interesting experiment -- if not a bit impractical. How about a more realistic test scenario.

Aimie and I have not been blessed with children. But we have been blessed with many nieces and nephews. I remember when my niece Elizabeth was just learning to walk. Her mother had to "baby proof" the house to ensure Elizabeth's curious hands didn't get hold of something breakable or otherwise dangerous.

My sister had an extensive collection of fragile figurines on display in the living room. Elizabeth would sit on the floor staring at the table where they were exhibited. She was especially drawn to a small china doll with a red dress. One day, her mother noticed her pulling herself up the table leg, trying with all her limited resources to reach the object of her desires.

"No sweetheart," she said kindly. "That's not for you. Come play with your toys." Some children might have complained, but not Elizabeth. She immediately smiled and did as she was told. But no sooner had we turned our backs than she was once again pulling her way up that table leg.

"Hey hey hey," my sister said, quickly scooping the child into her arms. "That's not for you. Come on over here." Once again, Elizabeth obeyed. This time, however, we hardly had a chance to redirect our attention before she started making her way back to the table.

Even though my niece could not yet talk, she understood language and clearly responded to instructions. Certainly, she knew the meaning of "no". There was something else Elizabeth understood; she clearly knew what it meant to disobey.

You don't have to be a Christian to perceive the problem with disobedience. But if you do believe the Bible, you will immediately acknowledge that a child's disobedience toward his/her parents is a sin [Ephesians 6:1]. Who taught Elizabeth to disobey her mother? Certainly not me, and certainly not her mother. Did someone sit this child down before the age of one and instill in her a sense of selfish rebellion against rightful authority? Of course not. So where did my niece learn to sin? Did early exposure to Sesame Street or Barney The Dinosaur infect her with wickedness?

The Bible offers only one explanation for this obvious problem. People are born sinners, because our original parents Adam and Eve rebelled against God. Through Adam, as the head of the original family, sin was passed to all people throughout time [1 Corinthians 15:22].

Long post.

Originally posted by Tim Rout
Leave a child isolated on a desert island and see how he turns out? An interesting experiment -- if not a bit impractical. How about a more realistic test scenario.

Aimie and I have not been blessed with children. But we have been blessed with many nieces and nephews. I remember when my niece Elizabeth was just learning to walk. Her mother had to "baby proof" the house to ensure Elizabeth's curious hands didn't get hold of something breakable or otherwise dangerous.

My sister had an extensive collection of fragile figurines on display in the living room. Elizabeth would sit on the floor staring at the table where they were exhibited. She was especially drawn to a small china doll with a red dress. One day, her mother noticed her pulling herself up the table leg, trying with all her limited resources to reach the object of her desires.

"No sweetheart," she said kindly. "That's not for you. Come play with your toys." Some children might have complained, but not Elizabeth. She immediately smiled and did as she was told. But no sooner had we turned our backs than she was once again pulling her way up that table leg.

"Hey hey hey," my sister said, quickly scooping the child into her arms. "That's not for you. Come on over here." Once again, Elizabeth obeyed. This time, however, we hardly had a chance to redirect our attention before she started making her way back to the table.

Even though my niece could not yet talk, she understood language and clearly responded to instructions. Certainly, she knew the meaning of "no". There was something else Elizabeth understood; she clearly knew what it meant to disobey.

You don't have to be a Christian to perceive the problem with disobedience. But if you do believe the Bible, you will immediately acknowledge that a child's disobedience toward his/her parents is a sin [Ephesians 6:1]. Who taught Elizabeth to disobey her mother? Certainly not me, and certainly not her mother. Did someone sit this child down before the age of one and instill in her a sense of selfish rebellion against rightful authority? Of course not. So where did my niece learn to sin? Did early exposure to Sesame Street or Barney The Dinosaur infect her with wickedness?

The Bible offers only one explanation for this obvious problem. People are born sinners, because our original parents Adam and Eve rebelled against God. Through Adam, as the head of the original family, sin was passed to all people throughout time [1 Corinthians 15:22].

Children act the way they do because they are selfish, not because they are sinful. Children are selfish because over time, the Children that were not selfish did not survive. Evolution has selected humans that have selfish Children over humans that have unselfish Children.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Children act the way they do because they are selfish, not because they are sinful. Children are selfish because over time, the Children that were not selfish did not survive. Evolution has selected humans that have selfish Children over humans that have unselfish Children.

Originally posted by chickenlover98
i disagree completely. its more along the line of basic curiosity. humans have a deep desire to explore. his niece clearly wanted to see what the **** a figurine was and so she tried to get to them. it has nothing to do with sin or evolution. its human nature

That is true, but human nature is a product of evolution.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Children act the way they do because they are selfish, not because they are sinful. Children are selfish because over time, the Children that were not selfish did not survive. Evolution has selected humans that have selfish Children over humans that have unselfish Children.

An interesting hypothesis, but the evidence does not support it. Children are exceedingly vulnerable. They require parents and other adults to keep them safe. Selfish disobedience to adult authority virtually always results in harm to the child. Using your logic, then, only those children who consistently OBEYED their parents should have survived natural selection.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
That is true, but human nature is a product of evolution.

Originally posted by Tim Rout
An interesting hypothesis, but the evidence does not support it. Children are exceedingly vulnerable. They require parents and other adults to keep them safe. Selfish disobedience to adult authority virtually always results in harm to the child. Using your logic, then, only those children who consistently OBEYED their parents should have survived natural selection.

Originally posted by Tim Rout
An interesting hypothesis, but the evidence does not support it. Children are exceedingly vulnerable. They require parents and other adults to keep them safe. Selfish disobedience to adult authority virtually always results in harm to the child. Using your logic, then, only those children who consistently OBEYED their parents should have survived natural selection.

Not at all, I am not only talking about disobedience, but about basic needs. Selfishness is not always disobedient. Sometimes a child will do what is right only because they do not wish to be punished. That is a selfish behavior.

Originally posted by chickenlover98
i disagree completely. its more along the line of basic curiosity. humans have a deep desire to explore. his niece clearly wanted to see what the **** a figurine was and so she tried to get to them. it has nothing to do with sin or evolution. its human nature

You have a point. There is nothing inherently wrong with curiosity. But in Elizabeth's case, innocent curiosity quickly evolved into abject disobedience. While I'm not a parent, my 37 years on the planet have taught me that obedience is highly desirable -- or so Moms and Dads tell me.

As to whether disobedience constitutes sin -- that depends on the nature of the disobedience. For example, the Bible says it is appropriate to disobey an authority figure if that person asks you to do something morally wrong [Acts 5:29]. However, if a duly established authority creates a morally justifiable law, then we are obligated to obey it [Romans 13:1-7].

Originally posted by Tim Rout
You have a point. There is nothing inherently wrong with curiosity. But in Elizabeth's case, innocent curiosity quickly evolved into abject disobedience. While I'm not a parent, my 37 years on the planet have taught me that obedience is highly desirable -- or so Moms and Dads tell me.

As to whether disobedience constitutes sin -- that depends on the nature of the disobedience. For example, the Bible says it is appropriate to disobey an authority figure if that person asks you to do something morally wrong [Acts 5:29]. However, if a duly established authority creates a morally justifiable law, then we are obligated to obey it [Romans 13:1-7].

Originally posted by chickenlover98
yes but in a childs case, you cant expect them to know right from wrong. that is to much to ask of any child below the age of 6-7. of course they will disobiedient. im sure u were, and im sure it wasnt because u wanted to sin or because you had a desire to sin. no im 100 % sure it was curiosity. and to say that the child should be punished is retarded. thats trying to kill human nature

Allow me to clarify: I am not trying to make a case for punishing babies. Rather, I am simply arguing that the seeds of sin exist from birth.

Originally posted by Tim Rout
Allow me to clarify: I am not trying to make a case for punishing babies. Rather, I am simply arguing that the seeds of sin exist from birth.

Originally posted by chickenlover98
your definition of sin in a childs case and curiosity overlap i hope you realize that

I can see why you might think that. Perhaps a more accurate description of my position would be:

Sin is intrinsic to every aspect of a person's life. Even the good deeds we do are not free from the contaminating effects of moral imperfection [Isaiah 64:6]. So in this sense, yes, there can be an overlap between curiosity and sin.

Originally posted by Tim Rout
I can see why you might think that. Perhaps a more accurate description of my position would be:

Sin is intrinsic to every aspect of a person's life. Even the good deeds we do are not free from the contaminating effects of moral imperfection [Isaiah 64:6]. So in this sense, yes, there can be an overlap between curiosity and sin.

I am so sorry for you. It live in such a world, would be too much to bare.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I am so sorry for you. It live in such a world, would be too much to bare.

I deeply appreciate your kind sympathy, but there is no need to feel sorry for me. My life is filled to overflowing with the joy of the Lord. That's the remarkable thing about having a friendship with the risen Son of God. His supernatural joy can penetrate the darkest despair and bring a peace that passes all understanding [Philippians 4:7].

Originally posted by Tim Rout
I deeply appreciate your kind sympathy, but there is no need to feel sorry for me. My life is filled to overflowing with the joy of the Lord. That's the remarkable thing about having a friendship with the risen Son of God. His supernatural joy can penetrate the darkest despair and bring a peace that passes all understanding [Philippians 4:7].

But you must have some compassion for all the people who your beliefs have condemned to hell. In your eyes, life must be dreadful.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
But you must have some compassion for all the people who your beliefs have condemned to hell. In your eyes, life must be dreadful.

My beliefs don't condemn people. God's law does. And yes, over the years I have become increasingly sensitive to the plight of the lost. I suspect my compassion will only rise with time, as the Lord continues to work on my heart. It is my goal to one day love people the way God does. Until then, I beg your kind indulgence.

Sadly, not all Christians tell others about Jesus for selfless reasons. Some enjoy the spotlight that preaching provides. Others just like a good argument and enjoy deriding people for their unbelief. I suppose there are even some Christians who engage in evangelism out of compulsion, such as pressure from a church community.

When all is said and done, however, I find the most significant motivator for me is the love of God. He has poured out such abundance into my heart, I can't help but want to share it with others. Life can be difficult, yes. The world can be troublesome, absolutely. But even the worst of circumstances can be survived with joy because of Jesus. He truly is the best, most faithful friend a person can have. And no...I'm not comparing Him to my dog. 🙂

Originally posted by Tim Rout
My beliefs don't condemn people. God's law does. And yes, over the years I have become increasingly sensitive to the plight of the lost. I suspect my compassion will only rise with time, as the Lord continues to work on my heart. It is my goal to one day love people the way God does. Until then, I beg your kind indulgence.

Sadly, not all Christians tell others about Jesus for selfless reasons. Some enjoy the spotlight that preaching provides. Others just like a good argument and enjoy deriding people for their unbelief. I suppose there are even some Christians who engage in evangelism out of compulsion, such as pressure from a church community.

When all is said and done, however, I find the most significant motivator for me is the love of God. He has poured out such abundance into my heart, I can't help but want to share it with others. Life can be difficult, yes. The world can be troublesome, absolutely. But even the worst of circumstances can be survived with joy because of Jesus. He truly is the best, most faithful friend a person can have. And no...I'm not comparing Him to my dog. 🙂

no but seriously, everything that you believe you've gotten from the lord is really just you enjoying things. i extremely atheist and it doesnt mean my life is any less fulfilling than yours. however i dont have to waste my time going to church and i can sleep in on sundays. my morals arent skewed and im still a person. belief in god does nothing for you, except perhaps explain things to you. i mean if you can believe everything happens because of god, then sure you feel nice and cozy. but one day your gonna have to open up the reality that everyting is done by people, not by god. when that hits you my friend, YOUR eyes will be opened. ill pray to Chuck Norris for that day. EDIT: o and also, since you believe in gods law you are condemning them.

Originally posted by Tim Rout
And yes, over the years I have become increasingly sensitive to the plight of the lost.

In my experience, that supposed concern is really just a cover for insecurity over your own religious choices. If everyone agrees with you, how can you be wrong?