Originally posted by focus4chumps
what part of "direct control" is confusing you?
There is no problem or confusion on this end, however, I don't think you understood what Galan and I stated:
Originally posted by dadudemon
It is debatable on whether or not Tarkin actually outranked Vader.
Originally posted by dadudemon
I think the "Captain of the boat" analogy is the best fit/description for this situation. Tarkin was captain of the boat so Vader, despite his rank, respected the orders/wishes of Tarkin in situations where commands were given.
Originally posted by dadudemon
IIRC, Vader makes use of some authority and resources while on the Death Star and of the Death Star without getting permission from Tarkin. Clearly, Vader has some power that is militarily mutually exclusive from Tarkin. One could argue that Vader outranks Tarkin and be equally correct as saying Tarkin outranks Vader.
Originally posted by Galan007
I believe that Vader was only subordinate to Tarkin on the Death Star-- as he [Tarkin] was its commander. Outside the Death Star, command would naturally fall to Vader.
Also, to the bit you're getting hung up on about the regional control of the Tarkins (pretend Galan meant regional control, if you get hung up on that). Wasn't The Emperor in control of everything?
Do you have a clip or a time stamp for where this regional thing is stated? If you do, could that not be arrogant boasting that was clearly false?
Originally posted by Galan007
Well yeah. Most of the key players in the Empire's political/military hierarchy died when the Death Star was destroyed.
Were not there more Grand Moffs than just Tarkin?
Also, there were plenty to promote up if the virtual "Joint Chiefs" were dead. Were not there Imperial Admirals by VI? I believe there were at the Battle of Endor.
Originally posted by dadudemonHere's the quote I believe he is referring to...
Do you have a clip or a time stamp for where this regional thing is stated? If you do, could that not be arrogant boasting that was clearly false?
"The Imperial Senate will no longer be of any concern to us. I have just received word that the Emperor has dissolved the council permanently. The last remnants of the old Republic have been swept away."
"That's impossible! How will the Emperor maintain control without the bureaucracy?"
"The regional Governors now have direct control over their territories [Tarkin is referring to the newly appointed rank of Grand Moff]. Fear will keep the local systems in line... Fear of this battle station." - ANH
Originally posted by dadudemonThere were, but many of them were on the Death Star when it blew, iirc.
Were not there more Grand Moffs than just Tarkin?Also, there were plenty to promote up if the virtual "Joint Chiefs" were dead. Were not there Imperial Admirals by VI? I believe there were at the Battle of Endor.
Regardless, Vader's only superior during ESB/RotJ was Palpatine, Grand Moffs/Admirals be damned... That said, I think Vader was merely giving Tarkin his due respect while aboard the Death Star. /shrug
Originally posted by Galan007
Here's the quote I believe he is referring to..."The Imperial Senate will no longer be of any concern to us. I have just received word that the Emperor has dissolved the council permanently. The last remnants of the old Republic have been swept away."
"That's impossible! How will the Emperor maintain control without the bureaucracy?"
"The regional Governors now have direct control over their territories [Tarkin is referring to the newly appointed rank of Grand Moff]. Fear will keep the local systems in line... Fear of this battle station." - ANH
Ah. The context makes that much more clear. The direct control part is a reference to the elimination of the senate and not a statement about no control from the Emperor. Meaning, the Grand Moff's no longer had to go through the bureaucracy.
Originally posted by Galan007
Regardless, Vader's only superior during ESB/RotJ was Palpatine, Grand Moffs/Admirals be damned... That said, I think Vader was merely giving Tarkin his due respect while aboard the Death Star. /shrug
That is how I view it, as well.
Originally posted by focus4chumps
glad thats how you view it. but you're wrong.
As long as it's settled that you make erroneous claims, further discussion with you holds no relevancy in this thread.
Ushgarak or Queeq, is there any more information that can be provided or are Galan and I truly "wrong"?
Originally posted by dadudemon
And which orders did Tarkin give Vader that he followed through, exactly? I am not entirely sure they were "orders" orders...
"Vader release him immediately" was one.
And he did release the officer he was force choking..with an totally complient "as you wish".
Trakin then followed this up his "This bickering is pointless" bollocking of Vader and the officer...
Other references to the hierarchy like Leia's appraisal of the relationship as Tarkin "Holding Vader's leash" clearly support the Tarkin highest position on this.
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
"Vader release him immediately" was one.And he did release the officer he was force choking..with an totally complient "as you wish".
Trakin then followed this up his "This bickering is pointless" bollocking of Vader and the officer...Other references to the hierarchy like Leia's appraisal of the relationship as Tarkin "Holding Vader's leash" clearly support the Tarkin highest position on this.
I covered this perspective, already, and so did Galan:
"I think the "Captain of the boat" analogy is the best fit/description for this situation. Tarkin was captain of the boat so Vader, despite his rank, respected the orders/wishes of Tarkin in situations where commands were given."
But Vader exercised some autonomy even while on the Death Star. This indicates that he wasn't quite under Tarkin...
Originally posted by focus4chumps
maybe i should quote myself ad infinitum. isnt that how all your winning is done?
If you read up just a little bit, you'll see I addressed this, already, too:
Originally posted by dadudemon
Ah. The context makes that much more clear. The direct control part is a reference to the elimination of the senate and not a statement about no control from the Emperor. Meaning, the Grand Moff's no longer had to go through the bureaucracy.
I am okay with discussing a topic and exploring the various aspects of it but talking in circles is not really what I prefer to do.
Originally posted by dadudemon
He is referred to as "Lord Vader" but this may be a reference to a full title which is Sith Lord Darth Vader (I don't believe this was canonically known until the PT came out) or simply an honorific.
"The awesome, seven-foot-tall Dark Lord of the Sith makes his way into the blinding light of the main passageway. This is
Darth Vader, right hand of the Emperor. His face is obscured
by his flowing black robes and grotesque breath mask, which
stands out next to the fascist white armored suits of the
Imperial stormtroopers. Everyone instinctively backs away from
the imposing warrior and a deathly quiet sweeps through the
Rebel troops. Several of the Rebel troops break and run in a
frenzied panic."
-"Star Wars: A New Hope script
STAR WARS
Episode IV
A NEW HOPE
From the JOURNAL OF THE WHILLS
by George Lucas
Revised Fourth Draft
January 15, 1976
LUCASFILM LTD."
http://www.blueharvest.net/scoops/anh-script.shtml
Seems pretty canon to me.
So again, easily dismissible pontification with an unconvincing false air of authority falls flat on it's backside.
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Seems pretty canon to me.
So again, pontification falls flat on it's backside.
Isn't that a bit of an extreme statement on your part? How much clearer did I have to make it that I wasn't too sure about it with multiple references to my dubiousness and requests for mod clarification on this topic? Additionally, what about the direct statement that I had not seen the movie in over a decade?
I am above this so I can say my belief about "Dark Lord of the Sith" was wrong. But you've only helped my point by bringing that up. Was that your intention? Just to remind you, my original point was about why he was called "Lord Vader" and that was leading credence to my overreaching point that he is not a definitive military leader in ANH.
Edit - I saw your post before the edit. Was it a bit to vitriolic upon a second reading? No worries: I won't report you for anything like that. Have at it.
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
I would say the edited one was better and more descriptive with the added "easily dismissible" and "false air of authority". Problem?
3 edits on that last statement to get it just right? lol
Edit - Let me know how this: "..wasn't too sure about it with multiple references to my dubiousness and requests for mod clarification on this topic? Additionally, what about the direct statement that I had not seen the movie in over a decade?"
Equals this:
"pontification with an....air of authority"
But this is derailing the thread to be off topic just to have petty arguments. If you wish to have a pissing match or something, take it to PMs.
"Grand Moffs received drastically increased authority, military forces, and funding as fitting their enhanced position. The position of Oversector governor was the sixth highest in the Empire after the Emperor, Lord Darth Vader, Grand Vizier, Imperial Ruling Council, and Grand Admirals."
The above fact was confirmed in no less than 3 separate guides/bios. Even IF you want to call official guides/bios "non-usable EU material", it is still nigh-ludicrous to disregard that much evidence in favor of a few [ambiguous] statements made during ANH. Imo.