Originally posted by focus4chumpsWait, what? What scene is this? When do we ever see Tarkin anywhere but on the Death Star?
he was also the boss of vader on the star destroyer at the beginning of the film. tarkin was a regional governor, possible more with a name like "grand moff". regardless, he was the boss.
Originally posted by Galan007
"Grand Moffs received drastically increased authority, military forces, and funding as fitting their enhanced position. The position of Oversector governor was the sixth highest in the Empire after the Emperor, Lord Darth Vader, Grand Vizier, Imperial Ruling Council, and Grand Admirals."The above fact was confirmed in no less than 3 separate guides/bios. Even IF you want to call official guides/bios "non-usable EU material", it is still nigh-ludicrous to disregard that much evidence in favor of a few [ambiguous] statements made during ANH. Imo.
Interesting and relevant. Anything from GL on this specific subject, though?
To me, "Right hand man" should settle it but it isn't that simple.
Originally posted by Sadako of GirthThe guides/bios extrapolate on where Grand Moffs are ranked in comparison to both EU and non-EU Imperial positions.
Screenfeats>>Pamphlets and packaging third party guides no matter how "official". Xizor and Grand admirals like Thrawn weren't shown. Sounds like EU to me. The movie wins.
...And Grand Moff falls below Vader in every one of said guides/bios.
I understand you totally wanting to overlook these multiple references, though. They do, after all, entirely obliterate your stance.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Wait, what? What scene is this? When do we ever see Tarkin anywhere but on the Death Star?
he was the regional governor (at the least). he was the boss of vader on the death star, and on the star destroyer. but yes you're right he was not physically on the star destroyer. if i had known that would spark confusion i would have worded that better.
Originally posted by Galan007
The guides/bios extrapolate on where Grand Moffs are ranked in comparison to both EU and non-EU Imperial positions....And Grand Moff falls below Vader in every one of said guides/bios.
I understand you totally wanting to overlook these multiple references, though. They do, after all, entirely obliterate your stance.
attempting over and over to peddle non-canon material will yeild the same result every time.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Interesting and relevant. Anything from GL on this specific subject, though?To me, "Right hand man" should settle it but it isn't that simple.
agreeing with the peddling of non-canon material will yeild the same result every time.
Originally posted by Galan007
The guides/bios extrapolate on where Grand Moffs are ranked in comparison to both EU and non-EU Imperial positions....And Grand Moff falls below Vader in every one of said guides/bios.
I understand you totally wanting to overlook these multiple references, though. They do, after all, entirely obliterate your stance.
Movies>>Non movie material. Sorry this entirely Death Star lasers your stance...just the way it works.
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Movies>>Non movie material. Sorry this entirely Death Star lasers your stance...just the way it works.
I would make that a singular to "movie" because Vader steps it up authority by the time ESB rolls around. But, yeah, I definitely agree here and based on Galan's post, he probably agrees too.
But I don't think the stuff in the movies is as definitive in one particular way like you do. There are 2 other points to consider that I brought up that make it seem not so much like Tarkin was the definitive boss of Vader. I try to reconcile this problem by using the "captain of the boat" analogy.
Originally posted by Galan007
The guides/bios extrapolate on where Grand Moffs are ranked in comparison to both EU and non-EU Imperial positions....And Grand Moff falls below Vader in every one of said guides/bios.
I understand you totally wanting to overlook these multiple references, though. They do, after all, entirely obliterate your stance.
Oh, I didn't know that (the part about the guides distinguishing the EU and non-EU take on the Grand Moffs). I always ignored the guides as unnecessary fluff.
Originally posted by dadudemon
I would make that a singular to "movie" because Vader steps it up authority by the time ESB rolls around.
Originally posted by dadudemon
But, yeah, I definitely agree here and based on Galan's post, he probably agrees too.
no, he continues to peddle EU/non-cannon. nice try though.
Originally posted by dadudemon
But I don't think the stuff in the movies is as definitive in one particular way like you do. There are 2 other points to consider that I brought up that make it seem not so much like Tarkin was the definitive boss of Vader. I try to reconcile this problem by using the "captain of the boat" analogy.
your "captain of the boat" analogy is completely arbitrary and bootless. your point is easily dismissible as has been all your posts in this thread. grand moff tarkin's rank was clearly depicted in the script as having "direct control" of his region. this means that everyone besides the emperor within his designated territory answers to him. if anything his rank was elevated considering his territory included a mobile space station.
dance all you wish. tarkin was the boss.
Not trying to 'peddle' anything. If you fellas don't want to accept info from multiple sources that overtly tells us where a Grand Moff ranks in comparison to Vader, that's fine. Don't care.
However, I find the notion that a few random/ambiguous comments equates to Tarkin outranking Vader across the board... Naive at best.
Originally posted by focus4chumps
horseshit. there were no grand moffs depicted in esb or even rotj.
Why state this? It makes no sense to state this unless I said there were Grand Moffs in ESB and RotJ.
My original point on that was about the admirals:
Originally posted by dadudemon
...there were plenty to promote up if the virtual "Joint Chiefs" were dead. Were not there Imperial Admirals by VI? I believe there were at the Battle of Endor.
But about that...I remembered something about Vader's seeming promotion from IV to V. 🙂
Remember Griff? Vader promoted him to Admiral in ESB. He was also in command of a fleet by this point. Not sure what happened but, apparently, Vader got more responsibilities after the death star other than being a watch dog for the Emperor. Nothing contradicts this and there is only evidence to support it. If you can find a single example or statement from Lucas of someone other than the Emperor that outranks Vader in ESB or RotJ, I'll concede.
Originally posted by focus4chumps
btw, the one being force choked in ep4 (while tarkin took a trollishly long time to break it up) was only a general. (see credits) there is no proof at all that vader was promoted to anything.
See above. But I'm pretty sure Motti was an admiral at the time. The only general I am aware of that was sitting at that table was Tagge.
Another note: If Vader was as high ranked as he was in ESB, I am sure he could have demoted Motti or something for arguing with/insulting Vader. Unsure why he would squabble with him like that if he was higher ranked than an Admiral in the Empire.
Originally posted by focus4chumps
no, he continues to peddle EU/non-cannon. nice try though.
To me, he acknowledged the argument before you posted it:
"Even IF you want to call official guides/bios "non-usable EU material..."
But, feel free to ask him if you thinks the guide is superior to the movies as far as canonicity is concerned.
To clarify before you state it, he thinks the guide is useful in this instance due to the ambiguity in the movie:
"...it is still nigh-ludicrous to disregard that much evidence in favor of a few [ambiguous] statements made during ANH. Imo."
Originally posted by focus4chumps
your "captain of the boat" analogy is completely arbitrary and bootless.
Other than it not being arbitrary and is relevant, of course.
Originally posted by focus4chumps
your point is easily dismissible as has been all your posts in this thread.
Oh my.
Originally posted by focus4chumps
grand moff tarkin's rank was clearly depicted in the script as having "direct control" of his region.
"The context makes that much more clear. The direct control part is a reference to the elimination of the senate and not a statement about no control from the Emperor. Meaning, the Grand Moff's no longer had to go through the bureaucracy."
Originally posted by focus4chumps
this means that everyone besides the emperor within his designated territory answers to him.
"there is no proof at all" that your statement is true.
Contradicting your statement are the autonomous actions Vader took while on the Death Star.
Originally posted by focus4chumps
dance all you wish. tarkin was the boss.
He was definitely the boss of the space station, no doubt. Captain of the Boat n'all. 🙂
Side note: thanks for bring it directly back on topic.
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Proof..?
See my above reply.
Do you have proof that Vader maintained the same exact position he held in a New Hope that also explains away the evidence that supports a promotion?
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Anakin's last recorded Military rank was General (Which are subservient to Grand Moffs)
I always saw Anakin's exploits in the Clone Wars as a bygone of the Republican Military and not the Empire. The Galactic Empire was formed after Anakin forsook his old Republican Military and Jedi lifestyle and became Darth Vader. So what I was talking about was the fact that, in the Empire, Vader seemed to hold no direct or legitimate military position in ANH. It wasn't until ESB that we see him with actual military command and the ability to promote people.
Guys what the f*ck are you all arguing about? Vader's position within the Empire is never specified. He's given only the vaguest of authority in the OT. He clearly has some, but exactly over who and to what degree is never shown. Tarkin and the Emperor were definitely above Vader, and he was definitely above every other character with spoken dialogue, but there isn't a single line or gesture in the entire trilogy that clearly--clearly puts Vader's authority on any level.
"Regional governor" is never correlated with the word "moff", a title that my memory can't even recall from the films. Tarkin was called governor. Vader obeyed orders from Tarkin and the Emperor. End of story. Seriously, what are you all arguing about?
Originally posted by dadudemon
Why state this? It makes no sense to state this unless I said there were Grand Moffs in ESB and RotJ.
because the grand moff was the only one depicted as having authority over vader besides the emperor. its called "frame of reference".
Originally posted by dadudemon
But about that...I remembered something about Vader's seeming promotion from IV to V. 🙂Remember Griff? Vader promoted him to Admiral in ESB. He was also in command of a fleet by this point. Not sure what happened but, apparently, Vader got more responsibilities after the death star other than being a watch dog for the Emperor. Nothing contradicts this and there is only evidence to support it. If you can find a single example or statement from Lucas of someone other than the Emperor that outranks Vader in ESB or RotJ, I'll concede.
its called "battlefield promotion" (look it up before setting off on your next wildly scatterbrained and lengthy retort). the former admiral was killed and vader was the commanding officer. its common military practice.
again you have no frame of reference to support your claim of vader's promotion. yet another easily dismissible non-point.
Originally posted by dadudemon
See above. But I'm pretty sure Motti was an admiral at the time. The only general I am aware of that was sitting at that table was Tagge.
got it. you're right and the credits at the end of ep4 are wrong.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Another note: If Vader was as high ranked as he was in ESB, I am sure he could have demoted Motti or something for arguing with/insulting Vader. Unsure why he would squabble with him like that if he was higher ranked than an Admiral in the Empire.
more bootless pontification. while its clear vader has a special arrangement within the command structure (gets away with assaulting lower ranking officers and gets admonished with a gentle brow-beating), its clear...again....that tarkin wore the pants in that room. PAINFULLY CLEAR. also that was not a situation which warranted vader promoting/demoting since...again...tarkin was the commanding officer
Originally posted by dadudemon
To me, he acknowledged the argument before you posted it:"Even IF you want to call official guides/bios "non-usable EU material..."
But, feel free to ask him if you thinks the guide is superior to the movies as far as canonicity is concerned.
To clarify before you state it, he thinks the guide is useful in this instance due to the ambiguity in the movie:
"...it is still nigh-ludicrous to disregard that much evidence in favor of a few [ambiguous] statements made during ANH. Imo."
Other than it not being arbitrary and is relevant, of course.
then you obviously have your own special arbitrarily method of translating plain direct english:
Originally posted by Galan007
The guides/bios extrapolate on where Grand Moffs are ranked in comparison to [i]both EU and non-EU Imperial positions....And Grand Moff falls below Vader in every one of said guides/bios.
I understand you totally wanting to overlook these multiple references, though. They do, after all, entirely obliterate your stance. [/i]
Originally posted by dadudemon
[B]
Oh my."The context makes that much more clear. The direct control part is a reference to the elimination of the senate and not a statement about no control from the Emperor. Meaning, the Grand Moff's no longer had to go through the bureaucracy."
First of all, Galan, I'm afraid that really does count as EU material so it really should not be in this debate.
Secondly, I think what some have said about putting rank aise is fair enough. This isn't about rank; I don't think Vader has a rank that can be compared to be higher or lower than anything. What Vader has is the brutal authority that comes from the exercise of sheer power, and its down to whether he thinks he can get away with doing that.
Just to support that idea...
I think people concentrate a bit much on Vader strangling Motti as an indication that Vader outranks him. But look at how Motti spoke to Vader in the first place- in terms of utter contempt, outright insulting. This is not the behaviour of a subordinate to a superior officer. Vader's just not really in that command chain at all. He is, of course, feared, and this is the point of the scene. Motti feels confident because of the Death Star and so looses off on Vader; Vader quickly re-asserts that Motti is in no position to speak to him that way. But Vader demurs to Tarkin because Tarkin genuinely does have power that Vader wants to respect (and let's not forget that they are actually portrayed as friends, so again this is not necessarily about military authority).
The other line we should not forget is Leia's- saying that Tarkin is holding Vader's leash. That's direct information describing the situation to the audience. Vader is the attack dog to be unleashed- but Tarkin has the control. You can make that out to be an official arrangement (Tarkin outranks Vader) or simply a practical reading of how the situation is (Tarkin is powerful enough to exercise control over Vader), but it does make the position clear.
I don't think Vader's more assertive behaviour in later films is evidence of promotion- merely that there's just not anyone around who has enough authority and power that he respects to make Vader listen.
I also think this debate reflects the fact that Tarkin was awesome and it's a shame that his type of presence is not reflected in the later films (Veers comes closest but is underused).
Originally posted by dadudemon
[B]
My original point on that was about the admirals:But about that...I remembered something about Vader's seeming promotion from IV to V. 🙂
Um? False memory syndrome, maybe?
Remember Griff? Vader promoted him to Admiral in ESB. He was also in command of a fleet by this point. Not sure what happened but, apparently, Vader got more responsibilities after the death star other than being a watch dog for the Emperor. Nothing contradicts this and there is only evidence to support it.
Ummm pretty sure there was no Admiral Griff in ANH/ESB.
Certainly not referred to.. (neither by name, or even on the credits...) The point made about Battlefield promotion covered that. Vader doesn't seem to directly have the authority to promote people in the military, (if he isn't in it, technically) any more than Xenomorphs had the "authority" to promote Corporal Hicks to command in 'Aliens'... (Hicks ended up in command because Apone and anyone higher were killed)
[quote]
Originally posted by Ushgarak
First of all, Galan, I'm afraid that really does count as EU material so it really should not be in this debate.
So this Admiral Griff EU character is inadmissable too, yes?
ush i agree with all that except for 2 points:
first, vader had to have a place within the command structure to be able to promote officers including and up to admiral (and especially getting away with killing admirals.) while being subordinate to a governor. in ESB he treats admirals with the same respect as he would a droid, and seemingly with full impunity. so i think its safe to conclude that he was above general motti.
he did not have a defined title of rank, but the emporer had likely given him a place within the command structure to avoid any subordinate/superior confusion (like vader getting pissed off and killing one of palp's grand moffs, or an admiral refusing vader's orders)
second, motti's antagonising of vader and the subsequent force-choking occurred in council and not on the field. its reasonable to assume that officers are able to speak opinions freely in such a setting or whats the point in holding council?
That's why beyond speaking your mind- that was outright offensive and showing no respect for position. An outright insult spoken with no respect. Council or otherwise, that's not someone working inside the military rank structure!
I think Vader's appointment of people in ESB on is just realpolitik- who's going to argue with it? Still, who's to say one way or another? He's in charge by then, clearly, so the means is unimportant.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
That's why beyond speaking your mind- that was outright offensive and showing no respect for position. An outright insult spoken with no respect. Council or otherwise, that's not someone working inside the military rank structure!
we have no indication that he wasn't in fact being insubordinate to a senior officer. he may well have been reprimanded by tarkin had vader not taken the initiative to interrupt his tirade and choke him out.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
I think Vader's appointment of people in ESB on is just realpolitik- who's going to argue with it?
the general mythos surrounding the sith inclines me to agree with you. but the contradiction in the form of tarkins authority over vader is why i've always always found this topic fascinating.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Still, who's to say one way or another? He's in charge by then, clearly, so the means is unimportant.
well we know he is in charge of that star destroyer fleet in ESB, and in charge of the mission to capture skywalker. perhaps the emperor just sends him on errands and defines his authority on a mission by mission basis.
as you said its anyone's guess. but its refreshing to get back to the actual topic and debating valid points.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Veers comes closest
Slightly off topic but I noticed that Veers is played by the same guy who plays Grand Maester Pycelle in Game Of Thrones.
Now back on topic. Growing up, I always felt that the whole issue of how powerful the Grand Moffs were in relation to Vader was really more about GL not being able to set his ideas out properly. As in, by ESB he realized he had to make Vader's position/authority above question.