Homosexuality: Chosen or Genetic?

Started by BackFire324 pages

Originally posted by whobdamandog
Fece..the argument was just above your head my friend. You couldn't comprehend it, because you don't possess the intellect necessary to do so. Sure..you are good at making one line retorts from time to time, and pointing out the minor spelling/grammar errors of the people on the board, but I believe that's the limit of your abilities my friend.

On another note..have you considered being a proofreader, it's actually a fairly good profession my friend. It generally pays roughly 12-15 dollars an hour, and its usually a position that's given to savants and social misfits. I can send you an application if you like. What's your e-mail adress.

Utter crap, avoid trolling please. I've warned you before and I'm growing tired of the repetition, insulting a members intellect in the above manner qualifies as trolling. Again, avoid rudeness and be courteous, anymore bullshit like the above cowardly retort will get you banned. This is your final warning.

Originally posted by whobdamandog
Is Government a higher authority than the Pope?

y'know... you want a clear answer on this: yes or no, while classes are being taught about this particular question at universities and still can not give an answer

Originally posted by whobdamandog
Is Government a higher authority than the Pope?

I like the [b]"in the opinion of Buddhists" statement. Guess what?
Buddhist opinion..does not over ride government authority. You follow?

In the second part of my argument I stated this...

"if you can prove to me that the Dalai Lama get's his authority from a power higher than government..then your argument would have credibility."

So that being said..where is the proof? Show me what "supernatural" powers give the Dalai Lama this unquestionable authority. Until you all can do this..then your argument is pretty much dead. Simple as that.

Why were these things so hard for you all to understand? [/B]

An appeal to authority is appropriate IF the person is qualified to give an expert opinion about the subject.

You are conflating "the power to exact obedience" with "an expert source of information."

A government is an authority in that it has the power to exact obedience, but unless the subject is the power to exact obedience, a government is not an expert source of information, and therefore not qualified to give an expert opinion on a subject.

Why is this so hard for you to understand?

whobdamandog:

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
You have yet to refute the study I cited which identifies genetic determinates of sexual orientation.

Originally posted by Wanderer259
I'm still waiting for him to directly refute me.

Perhaps you would like to get back on topic now?

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
You are conflating "the power to exact obedience" with "an expert source of information."
Thank god... figuratively speaking of course... that I'm not the only one who realised this... I was beginning to lose faith in all humankind.

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
An appeal to authority is appropriate IF the person is qualified to give an expert opinion about the subject.

Who creates the "qualifications" for the "authority" that the Dalai Lama represents?

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
You are conflating "the power to exact obedience" with "an expert source of information."

You are making the assumption that the Dalai Lama is an expert source of all information pertaining to what is/is not classified as a Religion. Clearly Adam..this is not the case. His ability to even classify what is deemed to be a religion is "questionable" at best. And as I stated before, this is without even bringing the whole "authority" argument into play.


A government is an authority in that it has the power to exact obedience, but unless the subject is the power to exact obedience, a government is not an expert source of information, and therefore not qualified to give an expert opinion on a subject.

More contradictions...a government IS the Supreme authority on what information is deemed valid. Personal opinions mean nothing when they have no power over those they are expressed to.

What do you think law is based on? Since many don't seem to understand, let me now tell you...

Whether or not the laws are based on secular or non-secular belief systems, they are always based on the "opinions"/"beliefs" of the "authorities" that administer them. This is a simple truth. I challenge you to go in front of a Supreme Court Justice today, and tell him that your interpretation of United States law carries more authority than his(or her).

Again..why is this so hard for you to understand?

A Government is only the final line on what is deemed officially valid. That doesn't necessarily mean they are right.

The Dalai Lama is just a person, but authority to speak on his system is given to him by the adherents of that system. This is the exact same authority that Governments get.

The Pope has even more claim- aside from being the ruler of his state, ALL senior clergy go through training facilities that qualify them as experts in religion much as a Doctor or Lawyer so trains. The Pope is the king of that pile for Catholics.

If Government and Church disagree, the Government might have the force of law behind them... but that doesn't say anything at all about whether they are correct or not.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
A Government is only the final line on what is deemed officially valid.

Exactly, I've stated this countless times.

and as I've also stated countless times..

Originally posted by whobdamandog
Show me what "supernatural" powers give the Dalai Lama this unquestionable authority. Until you all can do this..then your argument is pretty much dead. Simple as that.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
That doesn't necessarily mean they are right.

There's an old saying that I used to hear an old judge say..I believe it goes something like this..

I'm not final because I'm right..I'm right because I'm final..

Originally posted by Ushgarak
The Dalai Lama is just a person, but authority to speak on his system is given to him by the adherents of that system. This is the exact same authority that Governments get.

The Pope has even more claim- aside from being the ruler of his state, ALL senior clergy go through training facilities that qualify them as experts in religion much as a Doctor or Lawyer so trains. The Pope is the king of that pile for Catholics.

If Government and Church disagree, the Government might have the force of law behind them... but that doesn't say anything at all about whether they are correct or not. [/B]

All Buddhists and Catholics are adherents to the Governmental systems that rule over them. These adherents include both the Pope and the Dalai Lama.

Err, the Pope is head of his own State; he runs his own Government.

But even that aside... so what? All these things are down to opinion. Government has an opinion. They can enforce that opinion with law. But that does not make them any more right.

The Pope and the Dalai Lama also have opinions. Plenty of people find their opinions more important than those of various Governments- as in more likely to be right. That the Government has the power of enforcement is irrelevant to them, because that says nothing about how well informed or intelligent the Government opinion is.

As it is... you run into all sorts of trouble of Buddhism is defined as a religion, because it lacks so many things we normally associate with one. All sorts of political ideologies might be described as religious if Buddhism is. It's a very tricky area.

It's still defined as a religion by most states- but states are not necessarily correct to define it so. Just because something is legally and officially made a religion, that does not mean that it actually IS, in any objective, absolute sense. And if people choose to believe the word of someone else, who they also think is in a sensible place to state such an opinion and be correct about it... well, that's just the way it is. The definition of whether something is a religion is not something that a Government can definitively state, like what the tax rate is or the outcome of a court case. It's just something the Government can state their opinion on, and then enforce. Both error and dissent are entirely possible.

Religions transcend Government boundaries, after all. What one Government might think is a religion, another might not.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Err, the Pope is head of his own State; he runs his own Government.

Does the Pope run the United States Government..or the British Government, or the United Nations? Authority is only valid to those who are subjected to it. Simple as that.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
But even that aside... so what? All these things are down to opinion. Government has an opinion. They can enforce that opinion with law. But that does not make them any more right.

This is getting into the whole "relativity" argument again. Clearly you have a relativistic view of right/wrong. And you have a right to believe what you wish.

Moving on..regardless of what one interprets to be the correctness of their opinion..as I stated before if one does not have the power to administer their opinion as law, then their opinion means nothing.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
The Pope and the Dalai Lama also have opinions. Plenty of people find their opinions more important than those of various Governments- as in more likely to be right.

That the Government has the power of enforcement is irrelevant to them, because that says nothing about how well informed or intelligent the Government opinion is.

Still changes nothing. Particularly in this particular argument. In this case, not only do we have the governing bodies classifying Buddhism as a religion, but we also have skilled lexicographers, relgious scholars, and historians classifying this belief system as a religion. The evidence supports the Goverment's opinion being "true" in this scenario, not the Dalai Lama's.

The only thing you all have supporting your argument is the Dalai Lama's spoken word. Not very substantive or credible evidence IMO, particularly since his own opinion..contradicts what is written on his web site.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
As it is... you run into all sorts of trouble of Buddhism is defined as a religion, because it lacks so many things we normally associate with one. All sorts of political ideologies might be described as religious if Buddhism is. It's a very tricky area.

Buddhism is defined as a religion in the Dictionary, Encyclopedia, and by the Tibetan Government.(check their website)

But you are correct, religion can be used as a broad term..that covers more than just the "supernatural" and "spiritual." Quite frankly, anything that one devotes much time to in an idealistic way, with zeal/reverence/and devotion can be classified as a religion.

Spirtual concepts are easier to classify as being "religious" because they generally have little tangible evidence to support their validity. Doesn't mean that they're the only belief systems that should be classified as a religion though.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
It's still defined as a religion by most states- but states are not necessarily correct to define it so. Just because something is legally and officially made a religion, that does not mean that it actually IS, in any objective, absolute sense. And if people choose to believe the word of someone else, who they also think is in a sensible place to state such an opinion and be correct about it... well, that's just the way it is. The definition of whether something is a religion is not something that a Government can definitively state, like what the tax rate is or the outcome of a court case. It's just something the Government can state their opinion on, and then enforce. Both error and dissent are entirely possible.

Religions transcend Government boundaries, after all. What one Government might think is a religion, another might not.

This all goes back into that relativity argument Ush, and you pretty much know where I stand on that. The bottom line is this. One can not declare themselves an authority on anything..unless someone gives them the "authority" to do so.

isn't the whole area of ad populem not relevent in arguements on this forum....

"Does the Pope run the United States Government..or the British Government, or the United Nations? Authority is only valid to those who are subjected to it. Simple as that. "

Well, that doesn't make any sense, because Governments only have the power to decide things within their own territories, and even then, they only have the power to say what they think and what they will enforce... no power in the Universe could possibly make them able to state, overridingly, what is or is not true.

"This is getting into the whole "relativity" argument again. Clearly you have a relativistic view of right/wrong. And you have a right to believe what you wish. "

More fool you- because I don't think right/wrong is relative at all, and if you read what I say properly, you will see that I am preaching absolutism here- the Government doesn't actually have the ability to definitvely state what is absolute; theirs is just another opinion that might be wrong compared to that absolute. If I was being relative, I would say there wasn't any right or wrong in te first place.

"as I stated before if one does not have the power to administer their opinion as law, then their opinion means nothing. "

Gibberish. If you don't have the power to administer it... that only means you don't have the power to administer it. Your opinion might be exceptionally valid indeed, just not currently enforced.

Nazi Germany held that Jews should be exterminated. Plenty in Germany disagreed, but had no power to change what the Nazis thought. Did that meant their opinion meant nothing? Of course not- morally speaking, their opinion meant a very great deal.

The amount of times Governments have been wrong about things- regardless of their power to enforce their incorrect beliefs- are many.

"Buddhism is defined as a religion in the Dictionary, Encyclopedia, and by the Tibetan Government.(check their website)"

All three might well do- I don't really care. There are people that will hold all those definitions to be wrong because they believe in the word of another. Dictionary, Encylopedia, website... all are opinion only, they have no magical ability to be correct, no more than the Pope or Dalai Lame do, as you say... no cosmic force came to any of them and declared them the holders of absolute truth. All three sources you give were just written by people contributing what they thought was right. Same with Government- their only qualification is that they came to power; that gives them no automatic ability to know what is right at all either, only to state policy.

It is simply down to how much people believe them. Lots of people put their belief in dictionaries and encyclopedias based on their faith in the people who wrote them. But plenty of people believe the Pope and Dalai Lama more than the dictionary or encylopedia or any other source, based on their faith in those people. They might be wrong. Or the encyclopedia might be wrong. Both might be wrong, for that matter There might not be anyone, anywhere, who has gotten it right at all yet. But none can claim, at base, to have more power to be right than the other.

In fact, rather a lot in this area comes down to your definition of religion, which is going to be individual to each person.

"Quite frankly, anything that one devotes much time to in an idealistic way, with zeal/reverence/and devotion can be classified as a religion. "

If that is your definition of a religion, then yes, Buddhism is definitely one. But the definition of religion is disputed (for example, many dictionaries would challenge the definition you just gave), and furthermore, by the definition many use for religion now, Buddhism does not always seem to fit it. Hence the debate about whether it really is one or not. There is a very reasonable body of opinion that says it is not. Whether that becomes official in future or not we shall see in future.

"This all goes back into that relativity argument Ush, and you pretty much know where I stand on that. The bottom line is this. One can not declare themselves an authority on anything..unless someone gives them the "authority" to do so."

Authority is given by people. Governments don't have any magic powers that give them authority- it is given by people. And plenty of people invest that authority, when it comes to dictation of religious matters, not in Government but in religious leaders. Again, the power of Government to enforce what they believe is irrelevant to that. All that means is that they can enforce it; it has no bearing on the truth of the matter.

(Not to mention that the Pope holds authority also- excommunication will remove you from the Catholic church, regardless of what any Government thinks)

And again- nothing to do with relativity at all, which again as I have told you so many times, is not something I believe in. You are an absolutist- why do you believe Governments have the ability to know what those absolutes are? They can state policy, they can enforce that policy, but their policy might still be mistaken. The power to enforce is not the power to be right.

They can state, definitvely, what they officially consider to be a religion or not inside their state... but 'offiical' only means what the Government thinks and enforces... it still doesn't make it any more fundamentally right.

Some places don't consider Christianity a religion- in fact, would imprison you for suggesting it was. Now, this makes Christianity illegal in their country. It means that the Government does not consider it a religion. It probably means, because a lot of people in those countries have faith in the Government, that a lot of people in that country would not consider Christianity a proper religion.

But... does that actually have any effect on whether Christianity is, ultimately, a religion or not? No. No human opinion can actually change the absolute fact of whether Christianity is a religion or not.

It's the same with Buddhism. Either Buddhism is a religion or it is not- that's an absolute. The opinion of any Government will not change that ultimate fact. Nor will the opinion of the Pope or Dalai Lama. But people will continue to believe that one source or the other is more likely to be right- and plenty of such people choose the Pope or the Dalai Lama based on the fact that they think Pope/Lama have more of a call to be correct about such things. Once more, the ability of the Government to enforce will make no difference to this- enforcement is irrelevant to being right or wrong. So it goes.

So I am very surprised at you, being an absolutist, thinking that the possible contradictory opinions of various Governments might comprise truth. I mean, if a country like the UK or US one day states that Buddhism is not a religion, it puts your position in a difficult area, doesn't it? You can't say in an ultimate sense that in country x, Buddhism is, objectively speaking, a religion, but in country y it is not; you could only say that country x considers it a religion, and country y does not. Objectively speaking, Buddhism either is or is not in both, so one country or the other would be wrong, both in thinking and in enforcing otherwise.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Well, that doesn't make any sense, because Governments only have the power to decide things within their own territories, and even then, they only have the power to say what they think and what they will enforce... no power in the Universe could possibly make them able to state, overridingly, what is or is not true.

It makes plenty of sense. If the Pope declares his belief system to be a Philosophy..it doesn't effect what Britain, United States, Russia, Australia, India, Africa, South America, Mexico, etc..classify it as. Nor does it change the "opinions" of those who compile English Language Dictionaries/Encyclopedias. Not that difficult to understand buddy.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
More fool you- because I don't think right/wrong is relative at all, and if you read what I say properly, you will see that I am preaching absolutism here- the Government doesn't actually have the ability to state what is absolute; theirs is just another opinion that might be wrong compared to that absolute.

Wooaah boy..one huge contradiction Ush. Actually you are preaching relativism..let me repeat your quote again..

First you state that...

Originally posted by Ushgarak
More fool you- because I don't think right/wrong is relative at all, and if you read what I say properly, you will see that I am preaching absolutism here-

Then you state that..

Originally posted by Ushgarak
the Government doesn't actually have the ability to state what is absolute; theirs is just another opinion

😕

You can't say you are preaching "absolutism", and then in the same paragraph..state that no one has the ability to state what is "absolute." A side from being contradictory..that's relativistic my man. Fool on you buddy..

To add a final nail to the coffin...

Originally posted by Ushgarak
But even that aside... so what?All these things are down to opinion. Government has an opinion. They can enforce that opinion with law. But that does not make them any more right.

Your argument is that a Governments laws are just opinions. Opinions are subjective. When something is subjective..it represents a "relativistic" thought process Ush.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Gibberish. If you don't have the power to administer it... that only means you don't have the power to administer it. Your opinion might be exceptionally valid indeed, just not currently enforced.

Not Gibberish. Truth. To be honest with you, I never completely disagreed with you on that. But "power" does equate to validity in a round a bout way. You can't completely seperate the two. Those who have power over you, can deem your opinion to be either valid or false. Simple as that.

As I stated to Adam Poe, go to a Supreme court justice..and debate your opinion on a legal matter with theirs. Regardless of how "correct" you believe your opinion to be...it still is not going to change anything. The final word in the legal system..may not always be the interpreted by individuals as the correct one..but it is the only one that remains constant/valid/and enforcable none the less.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Nazi Germany held that Jews should be exterminated. Plenty in Germany disagreed, but had no power to change what the Nazis thought. Did that meant their opinion meant nothing?

To the government..yes. Their opinion meant nothing. Now if we are to debate using the terms of "Supernatural/Spiritual/Moral Authority." Then of course, the government was indeed very wrong in their opinion. But since we're debating on a "Natural" level. Then yes an individuals opinion is no greater than that of the governments.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Of course not- morally speaking, their opinion meant a very great deal.

My point exactly. But we're not debating using "Moral/Spiritual/Supernatural" arguments. However, if you do want to delve into the Supernatural..why don't you answer this question that I've been beggin you all to answer throughout the entire thread.

Originally posted by whobdamandog
By what "supernatural" authority does the Dalai Lama receive his unquestionable authority?
Originally posted by Ushgarak
All three might well do- I don't really care. There are people that will hold all those definitions to be wrong because they believe in the word of another. Dictionary, Encylopedia, website... all are opinion only, they have no magical ability to be correct, no more than the Pope or Dalai Lame do, as you say...no cosmic force came to any of them and declared them the holders of absolute truth. All three sources you give were just written by people contributing what they thought was right. Same with Government- their only qualification is that they came to power; that gives them no automatic ability to know what is right at all either, only to state policy.

Once again..what you say is very contradictory. You are getting into the "relativistic" thinking mode again Ush. Regardless, the evidence in this argument supports the Government's opinion as being True..not simply because the Government possesses the power to enforce their opinion, but also because they have objective evidence supporting this position.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
It is simply down to how much people believe them. Lots of people put their belief in dictionaries and encyclopedias based on their faith in the people who wrote them.

But plenty of people believe the Pope and Dalai Lama more than the dictionary or encylopedia or any other source, based on their faith in those people. They might be wrong. Or the encyclopedia might be wrong. Both might be wrong, for that matter There might not be anyone, anywhere, who has gotten it right at all yet. But none can claim, at base, to have more power to be right than the other.

In fact, rather a lot in this area comes down to your definition of religion, which is going to be individual to each person.

If that is your definition of a religion, then yes, Buddhism is definitely one. But the definition of religion is disputed (for example, many dictionaries would challenge the definition you just gave), and furthermore, by the definition many use for religion now, Buddhism does not always seem to fit it. Hence the debate about whether it really is one or not. There is a very reasonable body of opinion that says it is not. Whether that becomes official in future or not we shall see in future.

A lot of Gibberish in that one Ush. My argument is not entirely about people having "faith" in dictionaries/encyclopedias/lexicographers/historians/Government/theologians/scholars. It's about the power one has to enforce their opinion, and the accuracy of the information used to express it. The Dalai Lama doesn't have the power to enforce his opinions as being truth, nor does he possess the objective evidence needed to support them.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Authority is given by people. Governments don't have any magic powers that give them authority- it is given by people.

Never stated that they did, however, they do have the limited ability to enforce this "authority" through military, police, etc. Now if the Dalai Lama starts to build an army/becomes some global dictator/or starts demonstrating some sort supernatural abilities that defy the authorities we all are currently subjected to..then your arguments might carry a bit more credibility. Call me crazy if you wish..but I really don't think these things are going to happen anytime soon.

Originally posted by whobdamandog
Is Government a higher authority than the Pope?

I like the [b]"in the opinion of Buddhists" statement. Guess what?
Buddhist opinion..does not over ride government authority. You follow?

In the second part of my argument I stated this...

"if you can prove to me that the Dalai Lama get's his authority from a power higher than government..then your argument would have credibility."

So that being said..where is the proof? Show me what "supernatural" powers give the Dalai Lama this unquestionable authority. Until you all can do this..then your argument is pretty much dead. Simple as that.

Why were these things so hard for you all to understand? [/B]

No one said that the(any) government was higher that the Pope! ..or wasn't, for that matter.

Dumbass!

As Ush said, after I pointed it out to you, the Pope is the head of his own state! Your argument disappears when it comes right down to it. Beyond being the head of the catholic church as well as the head of the Vatican state, he is teh supreme pontif. What more would it take? A personal, signed latter. There is a picture of the Pope in every catholic school principle's office, as well as every vestibule in teh cathlic church! Just like poster-boy-Bush! in every federal office!
why is that? Because he's the top rung of the ladder!

Idiot.

Sigh... once again, whob, you are displaying a spectacular amount of denseness here.

"It makes plenty of sense. If the Pope declares his belief system to be a Philosophy..it doesn't effect what Britain, United States, Russia, Australia, India, Africa, South America, Mexico, etc..classify it as. Nor does it change the "opinions" of those who compile English Language Dictionaries/Encyclopedias. Not that difficult to understand buddy. "

But none of these opinions actually affect the objective fact of whether something is a religion or not.

"You can't say you are preaching "absolutism", and then in the same paragraph..state that no one has the ability to state what is "absolute." A side from being contradictory..that's relativistic my man. Fool on you buddy.."

Idiotic thinking! Total and utter silly nonsense. You obviously don't know the first damn thing about absolutism. That was a really, really stupid comment indeed.

Absolutism means you believe there are definitive facts the exist independantly of people's beliefs on a matter. It says nothing- nothing at all- about people's abiilities TO STATE WHAT THOSE TRUTHS ARE.

Saying people can have opinions about what a truth might be is NOT relatavism. As I already pointed out, relatavsim would be saying that there IS NO TRUTH.

You are so much in the nursery on this one, it is unbelievable. As I continually said during my post, I believe the fact of whether Buddhism is a religion or not is an absolute one. Therefore, I am an absolutist. Obviously- as anyone with a brain can say- people have differeing opinions about that fact. That does not detract from its absolute nature.

Geez.

"Not Gibberish. Truth. To be honest with you, I never completely disagreed with you on that. But "power" does equate to validity in a round a bout way. You can't completely seperate the two. Those who have power over you, can deem your opinion to be either valid or false. Simple as that. "

Now- that is self-evidently wrong. The person has the power can enforce it, but that is IT. Being able to enforce it does not make it any more right or wrong than anyone else. It is very, very weird indeed to believe that.

"As I stated to Adam Poe, go to a Supreme court justice..and debate your opinion on a legal matter with theirs. Regardless of how "correct" you believe your opinion to be...it still is not going to change anything. The final word in the legal system..may not always be the interpreted by individuals as the correct one..but it is the only one that remains constant/valid/and enforcable none the less. "

No, the legal opinion would the the official one, but that makes no difference as to whether it is the correct one or not. Judges are capable of error like anyone else and it is possible that they make a mistake.

"Once again..what you say is very contradictory. You are getting into the "relativistic" thinking mode again Ush. Regardless, the evidence in this argument supports the Government's opinion as being True..not simply because the Government possesses the power to enforce their opinion, but also because they have objective evidence supporting this position. "

Moronic statement. NOT relative- simply acknowledging that Government is as capable as error as anyone and has no ability to claim absolute truth. The evidence is debatable.

"To the government..yes. Their opinion meant nothing. Now if we are to debate using the terms of "Supernatural/Spiritual/Moral Authority." Then of course, the government was indeed very wrong in their opinion. But since we're debating on a "Natural" level. Then yes an individuals opinion is no greater than that of the governments...

My point exactly. But we're not debating using "Moral/Spiritual/Supernatural" arguments. However, if you do want to delve into the Supernatural..why don't you answer this question that I've been beggin you all to answer throughout the entire thread."

Well for a start, equating a moral argument with a supernatural one is just silly. Secondly, I have already answered your question, and can simply reverse around to saying that a Government receives no such authority either othert than that given to it by the people- as do the Dalai Lama and the Pope. Thirdly, you have no right to state what is being argued about here.

"A lot of Gibberish in that one Ush. My argument is not entirely about people having "faith" in dictionaries/encyclopedias/lexicographers/historians/Government/theologians/scholars. It's about the power one has to enforce their opinion, and the accuracy of the information used to express it. The Dalai Lama doesn't have the power to enforce his opinions as being truth, nor does he possess the objective evidence needed to support them. "

Good Lord,- what, exactly, does a dictionary have in the way of 'enforcement'? Such a ludicrous idea! But far more to the point, again... what the hell does enforcement have to do with the idea of truth? Nothing- nothing at all.

"Never stated that they did, however, they do have the limited ability to enforce this "authority" through military, police, etc"

Irrelevant- once more, the ability to enforce makes NO difference about whether someone is right or not.

You are stuck, whob, in this ludicrous zone of thinking that if you can enforce something, you have the ability to state what is or is not so, objectively speaking. Other than being so very, very obviously wrong...

... it is also the position of a relatavist- thinking that facts can be altered according to the views of a certain group of people, for whatever reason.

Luckily, everyone can once more see how obviously dumb your arguments are, so once more I can let you carry on speaking, and continue to poison yourself.

The world's governments declare smoking is good for you and the world is flat despite the views of all medical clinicians and scientists, and geologists respectively. The armies under the command of said governments destroy all reference to the relationship between smoking and lung cancer and the earth being spherical in nature and governments impose a moratorium on study of either topic.

Smoke up on the flat earth 'cause it's good for you... so says the government.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Sigh... once again, whob, you are displaying a spectacular amount of denseness here.

Don't think so. Your arguments just got severely whipped as always. And in a desperate effort to save face, you attempt to attack one's credibility by means of ridicule, rather than actually attempt to attack an individual's argument.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
But none of these opinions actually affect the objective fact of whether something is a religion or not.

They affect the the ability of the Pope to impress his "opinions" on others. It doesn't matter whether or not something is "defined" by the Pope to be a religion or a philosophy. If the Pope can't subjegate English language lexicographers, national governments, scholars, etc..to the "professed" authority his opinion carries, then his opinion means nothing to anyone other than himself.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Absolutism means you believe there are definitive facts the exist independantly of people's beliefs on a matter.

It says nothing- nothing at all- about people's abiilities TO STATE WHAT THOSE TRUTHS ARE.

Saying people can have opinions about what a truth might be is NOT relatavism. As I already pointed out, relatavsim would be saying that
there IS NO TRUTH.

You are so much in the nursery on this one, it is unbelievable. As I continually said during my post, I believe the fact of whether Buddhism is a religion or not is an absolute one. Therefore, I am an absolutist. Obviously- as anyone with a brain can say- people have differeing opinions about that fact. That does not detract from its absolute nature.

Geez.

What you are essentially stating above Ush is that Absolute Truths, are things that can't be defined nor deemed to be correct by any one "authority", whether that authority be the government,a religious leader, lexicographer, etc.

Again Ush, the belief that no one knows/understands/or can define what "absolutes" are..is a relativistic thought process. Simple as that.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Now- that is self-evidently wrong. The person has the power can enforce it, but that is IT. Being able to enforce it does not make it any more right or wrong than anyone else.

No, the legal opinion would the the official one, but that makes no difference as to whether it is the correct one or not. Judges are capable of error like anyone else and it is possible that they make a mistake.

Moronic statement. NOT relative- simply acknowledging that Government is as capable as error as anyone and has no ability to claim absolute truth. The evidence is debatable.

A Government's/Judge's "opinion" isn't final because its right..it's right because its final. At least when you attempt to debate from a secularistic point of view, which is what you've been doing.

Now if you were to attempt to debate using non-secular arguments, and were to bring relgion/spirituality/and morality into play, then of course.. the government's authority can indeed be challenged by anyone.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Well for a start, equating a moral argument with a supernatural one is just silly. Secondly, I have already answered your question, and can simply reverse around to saying that a Government receives no such authority either othert than that given to it by the people- as do the Dalai Lama and the Pope. Thirdly, you have no right to state what is being argued about here.

Now you are just being silly. I never equated moral/spiritual/supernatural arguments. Just stated that in order for you to validate your position regarding the Dalai Lama's authority, you would need to bring such arguments into play.

As of right now, none of you have done this. You are all debating using secularistic argumentation, and guess what..in a secular belief system, the government IS the highest authority!! Therefore, your arguments are completely dead in water. The Dalai Lama's authority is not higher than that of the Government's.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Good Lord,- what, exactly, does a dictionary have in the way of 'enforcement'? Such a ludicrous idea! But far more to the point, again... what the hell does enforcement have to do with the idea of truth? Nothing- nothing at all.

Dictionaries/Encyclopedia are the closest thing we have to being objective non-biased sources, seeing as how information used to compile them is ususally gathered by those wanting to inform/define, rather than those attempting to support a specific politicol/religous idealogy.

Can lexicographers enforce what is written in the dictionary? Of course not. However the government can. And in this particular argument regarding the Dala Lama, the Government's opinion coincides with that of the dictionary/Encyclopedia/theologians/etc. Therefore the dicitionary does indeed have an opinion that "carries" more authority than that of the Dalai Lama's.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Irrelevant- once more, the ability to enforce makes NO difference about whether someone is right or not.

Relevant..once more, because we're debating using secular arguments. Which makes government the Absolute highest authority.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
You are stuck, whob, in this ludicrous zone of thinking that if you can enforce something, you have the ability to state what is or is not so, objectively speaking. Other than being so very, very obviously wrong...

... it is also the position of a relatavist- thinking that facts can be altered according to the views of a certain group of people, for whatever reason.

Luckily, everyone can once more see how obviously dumb your arguments are, so once more I can let you carry on speaking, and continue to poison yourself.

Not stuck Ush. As with many of our debates, you've been proven wrong again. Unless you all attempt to prove that the Dalai Lama's opinion carries some sort of supernatural authority that supercedes the authority of government, then as you stated to me..all of your opinions will remain stuck in a "ludicrous zone."

You can't lie and make things up to prove someone wrong. Oh, and everyone is laughing at you.

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
You can't lie and make things up to prove someone wrong. Oh, and everyone is laughing at you.

Excellent Retort Captain. Almost as good as your argument of... "I'm an animal..Romans threw their babies out in the woods response"

Which was used as a way to justify deviant sexual behavior.

Truly..I can't begin to argue with such an overwhelming intellect. I acknowledge my defeat.

Good debating with you all. Happy New Year!!!

Originally posted by whobdamandog
I acknowledge my defeat.

good. Finally, you say something on which we can all agree.